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  #51  
Old 03-04-2015, 10:35 PM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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1. Seeing soldiers from multiple non-northern kingdoms among the Human Expedition.

2. TFT's manual saying Theramore safeguards the ''ragtag remnants of the failing human Alliance''.

3. Daelin saying his fleet searched for survivors.

It's not very subtle. In WC3, the Scourge and/or the Burning Legion rampaged way down the continent.

In a more WC3 consistent, WoW the Alliance would have the strength it has.
1. Potentially explained by the situation in Lordaeron and Quel'thalas. The dead rising en mass shortly after a previous massive Horde invasion would likely come across as a doomsday scenario. Trusting Jaina, who had seen first hand the threat and was the daughter of the respected leader of Kul'tiras, to safely lead them would not be out of the question.

2. I've always found that quote strange due to the absence of the Dwarves. However I never took it to mean that the entirety of Eastern Kingdoms were ravaged. Especially since in The Frozen Throne multiple groups of survivors were revealed; Garithos' troops and his Dwarven reinforcements, Kael's Blood Elves and the human villagers at the start of the Undead campaign.

3. I always assumed that that was largely across the coastal areas of Lordaeron. Certainly the same game showed there to be at least some survivors; some of whom were capable of destroying some Scourge forces.

In a more WC consistent WoW neither the Alliance nor the Horde would be superpowers easily capable of crossing the seas whenever they feel like it. Both sides were savaged even before the events of WCIII let alone the damage that occurred during the Third War. The Orcs crossed the sea in the handful of boats they managed to scavenge from a not-too-impressive Human base after all.
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  #52  
Old 03-04-2015, 11:53 PM
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What Galdus is talking about was implied at the time.
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  #53  
Old 03-04-2015, 11:57 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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2. I've always found that quote strange due to the absence of the Dwarves. However I never took it to mean that the entirety of Eastern Kingdoms were ravaged. Especially since in The Frozen Throne multiple groups of survivors were revealed; Garithos' troops and his Dwarven reinforcements, Kael's Blood Elves and the human villagers at the start of the Undead campaign.
None of those surviving forces at the time were at all suggested to represent an enduring Alliance infrastructure. Especially with Kael's forces scrambling around trying to avoid the Scourge, and Garithos isolated in the middle of the ruined kingdom rather than being the vanguard of a counteroffensive from outside Lordaeron. They were portrayed as pockets of resistance, not the surprisingly intact might of the Alliance shaking off its hangover from a zombie apocalypse.

Since the armies of Gilneas, Kul Tiras and the rest weren't at all portrayed as attempting to aid Lordaeron, the presence of their military divisions in Jaina's forces carried the implication that they, too, had been overrun. There was no wall in Gilneas back then preventing them from being involved, Alterac wasn't mysteriously emptied of people between stories, nor was Jaina teleporting around saying her goodbyes to Antonidas and borrowing a fleet from Kul Tiras.

Plus the fact remains that no matter what gut feeling Jaina had about Medivh's warnings, nobody else among the survivors had any basis for going to Kalimdor if the Alliance was still present elsewhere. If Stormwind, Khaz Modan and the rest weren't crushed by the Scourge, the surviving armies' officers and the civilian leadership would have all had to be insane to even entertain her idea of sailing off to a mythical continent that may or may not even exist in the knowledge that their allies in the south did still exist and would likely offer them protection.

The whole premise of everyone going to Kalimdor and leaving the EK behind only made sense in the context of there being nothing else left of the Alliance for them to save.
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  #54  
Old 03-05-2015, 12:01 AM
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2. I've always found that quote strange due to the absence of the Dwarves. However I never took it to mean that the entirety of Eastern Kingdoms were ravaged. Especially since in The Frozen Throne multiple groups of survivors were revealed; Garithos' troops and his Dwarven reinforcements, Kael's Blood Elves and the human villagers at the start of the Undead campaign.
In the orc mission where you first fight the Alliance Expedition in Kalimdor, a dwarf mountain king leads the Gilneas Brigade. There's not an absence of dwarves among the Alliance Expedition. You have to remove later World of Warcraft (and RPG) lore from your mind when talking about the world as depicted in Warcraft 3. It's difficult, but you do have to back step your lore presumptions.
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  #55  
Old 03-05-2015, 12:51 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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1. Potentially explained by the situation in Lordaeron and Quel'thalas. The dead rising en mass shortly after a previous massive Horde invasion would likely come across as a doomsday scenario. Trusting Jaina, who had seen first hand the threat and was the daughter of the respected leader of Kul'tiras, to safely lead them would not be out of the question.

2. I've always found that quote strange due to the absence of the Dwarves. However I never took it to mean that the entirety of Eastern Kingdoms were ravaged. Especially since in The Frozen Throne multiple groups of survivors were revealed; Garithos' troops and his Dwarven reinforcements, Kael's Blood Elves and the human villagers at the start of the Undead campaign.

3. I always assumed that that was largely across the coastal areas of Lordaeron. Certainly the same game showed there to be at least some survivors; some of whom were capable of destroying some Scourge forces.

In a more WC consistent WoW neither the Alliance nor the Horde would be superpowers easily capable of crossing the seas whenever they feel like it. Both sides were savaged even before the events of WCIII let alone the damage that occurred during the Third War. The Orcs crossed the sea in the handful of boats they managed to scavenge from a not-too-impressive Human base after all.
First off, having Garithos' army and the Blood Elves around doesn't cancel out the EKs getting kicked around. Garithos in TFT was a warlord leading an army without major support (if there was any support) from any of the kingdoms southwards. The Blood Elves were the High Elves Kael'thas had rallied behind him. Even if Garithos was retconned into acting as a member of an Alliance that was still a superpower (I would guess to back the ''ALLIANCE OPPRESSION'' angle), that doesn't make it the case within context of TFT.

TFT's manual says Theramore ''safeguards'' the ''ragtag remnants'' of the ''human alliance'', which is ''failing'', as the manual put it. At the very least, it rules out, say, Stormwind as a major power that is a member of the Alliance.

With the state of the Eastern Kingdoms by the time TFT ended going from WoW, apparently all of those colonists ran away with Jaina rather then stay on the East continent, which wasn't as lost as WC3 had it. And even if they feared the Scourge and the Legion would have taken down the EK, then after the Legion was defeated somebody could have gone to Theramore and pointed out that at least Stormwind was available.

Last edited by Galdus; 03-05-2015 at 01:02 AM..
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  #56  
Old 03-05-2015, 01:02 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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A lot of that was later retconned, if mermory serves correctly, to say that the remaining members of the Alliance to include SW send help to Garithos and either didn't know that he was a racist, or knew but felt that he was the best of the solutions up there.
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  #57  
Old 03-05-2015, 05:44 AM
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None of those surviving forces at the time were at all suggested to represent an enduring Alliance infrastructure. Especially with Kael's forces scrambling around trying to avoid the Scourge, and Garithos isolated in the middle of the ruined kingdom rather than being the vanguard of a counteroffensive from outside Lordaeron. They were portrayed as pockets of resistance, not the surprisingly intact might of the Alliance shaking off its hangover from a zombie apocalypse.

Since the armies of Gilneas, Kul Tiras and the rest weren't at all portrayed as attempting to aid Lordaeron, the presence of their military divisions in Jaina's forces carried the implication that they, too, had been overrun. There was no wall in Gilneas back then preventing them from being involved, Alterac wasn't mysteriously emptied of people between stories, nor was Jaina teleporting around saying her goodbyes to Antonidas and borrowing a fleet from Kul Tiras.

Plus the fact remains that no matter what gut feeling Jaina had about Medivh's warnings, nobody else among the survivors had any basis for going to Kalimdor if the Alliance was still present elsewhere. If Stormwind, Khaz Modan and the rest weren't crushed by the Scourge, the surviving armies' officers and the civilian leadership would have all had to be insane to even entertain her idea of sailing off to a mythical continent that may or may not even exist in the knowledge that their allies in the south did still exist and would likely offer them protection.

The whole premise of everyone going to Kalimdor and leaving the EK behind only made sense in the context of there being nothing else left of the Alliance for them to save.
Since when were you under the impression that followers had any agency?
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  #58  
Old 03-05-2015, 08:00 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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A lot of that was later retconned, if mermory serves correctly, to say that the remaining members of the Alliance to include SW send help to Garithos and either didn't know that he was a racist, or knew but felt that he was the best of the solutions up there.
Again, the ''ALLIANCE OPPRESSION'' angle.
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  #59  
Old 03-05-2015, 08:28 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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The whole premise of everyone going to Kalimdor and leaving the EK behind only made sense in the context of there being nothing else left of the Alliance for them to save.
I could definitely see the appeal from a design perspective from this scenario: both the Horde and the Alliance have to leave the world they know (Eastern Kingdoms) and go to a new, savage world (Kalimdor) in order to survive, making new allies along the way. It also presages that eventually you'd have at least the Alliance having a reason to go back to the Eastern Kingdoms in order to reclaim their homes from the Scourge once they've regained their footing.

There are problems with that, though, from a design perspective:
  • The Horde would have no reason to go back to the EK.
  • The EK being a bunch of Scourge strongholds serves all right, but if the Lich King is still in Northrend spreading his power, then you've got two continents of all Scourge all the time. Hence, designing the Scourge to consolidate in Northrend gives more room for other content in the EK, like Stranglethorn Vale, the Dark Horde/Dark Iron narratives in Blackrock Mountain, the red dragon flight holding Grim Batol, etc.
  • Someone on the dev team may have spoken up about how the dwarves getting roflstomped in the First and Third wars without putting up seemingly any resistance didn't bode well for having them as a playable faction in WoW, so having Khaz Modan survive would imply that anything south of it would survive too.

I think it goes without saying that how the devs wanted to proceed with WoW forced them to abandon some elements that had been implied (directly or indirectly) by WC3, but if they had decided not to do that, the franchise would definitely have proceeded in a different direction. It's hard to say if being more consistent with WC3 would have led to a better WoW... but I guess we have another thread going about that, don't we?
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  #60  
Old 03-05-2015, 08:51 AM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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A lot of that was later retconned, if mermory serves correctly, to say that the remaining members of the Alliance to include SW send help to Garithos and either didn't know that he was a racist, or knew but felt that he was the best of the solutions up there.
That certainly would be a realistic portrayal. Humanity does have a long history of governments forging alliances with unsavory people because they both happen to be willing to fight the same enemy. And in Warcraft, that does include Garithos himself, seeing as how he had no problem temporarily allying himself with Sylvanas in order to drive the Burning Legion out of the ruins of Lordaeron, and simply wanted her to leave when they succeeded.
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:55 AM
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That's assuming any of the human lands are in a state for the leaders to send more than a token show of support.

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Old 03-05-2015, 09:40 AM
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I am disappointed by the direction of the expansions...

I think they should've been printed facing down. Up is a such a tired & overused direction; why won't big companies take the leap and try something new!
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Old 03-05-2015, 11:57 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Explan how the player factions would get a conventional victory over the Scourge without the Lich King screwing up or any Deus Ex Machinas.
The Scourge is not unstoppable, so I there is really no need for this question.

Whether or not the entire EK was devastated, the Legion had a major part in it. All the EK segments in WC3 only showed Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, and Dalaran invaded directly by the Scourge. From the beginning of the Scourge invasion up to summoning of Archimonde, those were the only nations involved. The Legion was physically present for destruction to the rest of EK from then on.

In a WC3 consistent setting, the Lich King was not a god, and the Scourge is not as powerful as they are in WoW, to the point that we needed bad writing to win.
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  #64  
Old 03-05-2015, 12:55 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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They did severely nerf the Lich King's powers though; remember, Ner'zhul was able to basically inflict pain upon Arthas from half a world away to spur him on in TFT, and the whole way the Scourge worked in WC3 was on the idea that the RTS level of player awareness was basically canon. Ner'zhul was essentially in the head of every undead minion, exerting direct control whenever he chose, and so he truly would know whenever one of them died somewhere, the same way the player instantly received notification in-game when attacked.

The psychic capabilities of the Lich King were severely scaled down in WoW, such that we had Arthas being ignorant of Thassarian no longer being in his thrall during their Borean Tundra confrontation (when not being able to control him any more would originally told him as much immediately), the plague catching him totally off-guard despite it having been deployed against his minions in the Dragonblight, and the Ebon Blade "blinding" him to their capturing of the Shadow Vault when in WC3 losing all of its inhabitants would have alerted him to it right away.

For whatever reason, WotLK portrayed Lich King Arthas as not retaining Ner'zhuls psychic awareness of his army's disposition at all times, to the point that player-driven missions are frequently based upon wiping out segments of his forces without drawing his attention, the same way they would with any mortal enemy.

Even the Scourge's reanimation capacity was significantly hamstrung, with its individual NPC's having to walk around directly reanimating corpses from close range, when portrayals of the fall of Quel'thalas had just the proximity of the Scourge's vanguard raising its freshly killed victims within moments of death to pounce on their former allies.
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  #65  
Old 03-05-2015, 01:00 PM
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...

For whatever reason, WotLK portrayed Lich King Arthas as not retaining Ner'zhuls psychic awareness of his army's disposition at all times, to the point that player-driven missions are frequently based upon wiping out segments of his forces without drawing his attention, the same way they would with any mortal enemy...
Ner'zhul was dead by Arthas though at this point, right? Maybe that weakened The Lich King's powers.
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  #66  
Old 03-05-2015, 01:04 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Could be explained by the merge with Arthas. Not having a physical body was what expanded his psychic abilities in the first place. Though at this point it's just conjecture on my part.

The Lich King's god status came mostly from the RPG books, which was a post WC3 development.
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Old 03-05-2015, 01:07 PM
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Ner'zhul was dead by Arthas though at this point, right? Maybe that weakened The Lich King's powers.
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  #68  
Old 03-05-2015, 01:13 PM
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Ner'zhul was dead by Arthas though at this point, right?
That wouldn't happen in a more WC3 consistent WoW. Instead, Arthas would have sacrificed himself for Ner'zhul to have another body. Which was what Ner'zhul planned.

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Old 03-05-2015, 01:32 PM
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That wouldn't happen in a more WC3 consistent WoW. Instead, Arthas would have sacrificed himself for Ner'zhul to have another body. Which was what Ner'zhul planned.
Yup, but for whatever reason, likely the game mechanical reason we got, they decided that the pretty blonde brat prince should lead. Having the arrogant dumbass be the villain works better than the badass when the mechanics require incompetence to proceed.
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Old 03-05-2015, 01:38 PM
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I just wish Arthas retained a bit of his sense of humor in Wrath of the Lich King. He was making wise-cracks to everyone he met back during TFT.
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:50 PM
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I just wish Arthas retained a bit of his sense of humor in Wrath of the Lich King. He was making wise-cracks to everyone he met back during TFT.
Well now, he couldn't do that; wisecracking wouldn't have fit with the big, mean, super-scary dark overlord cosplay he was using to intimidate everyone.

In a way, one of the worst parts of Ner'zhul being out of the picture is how it makes it all the more apparent that Arthas' behavior in Wrath was basically a sub-par attempt on his part to deliberately mimic his predecessors. His whole Lich King "schtick" was basically Arthas doing his best Ner'zhul and Mal'ganis impressions, and failing hard at both.
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Old 03-05-2015, 09:02 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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We need a smooth talking villain like Megatron.
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Old 03-05-2015, 09:36 PM
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The Scourge is not unstoppable, so I there is really no need for this question.
I don't think the Scourge could be defeated through conventional warfare.

Undead troops don't require food or water, but they can contaminate supplies to deny them to the living. They don't sleep and never grow fatigued, so they can march and fight at peak efficiency twenty-four hours a day. Morale is a non-issue for the undead, but they excel at instilling confusion and terror among the living.

Combatants generally represent a small portion of a nation's overall population. In the case of the U.S., it's less than 1% now. It was almost 10% at the end of World War II, and on Azeroth the average might be even higher... but when the Scourge takes a village or city or kingdom, it converts nearly 100% of the population into combatants of one sort or another. After what the Scourge did to Northrend, Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, and Dalaran, it would have had more troops than all of Azeroth's other armies put together.

Attrition also favours the Scourge. When a living soldier falls, he becomes an undead soldier. When an undead soldier falls... he probably gets back up sooner or later, unless he's damaged beyond any hope of repair. Anyone infected by the plague is also added to the Scourge's ranks, and it's been shown to spread through the air, through contaminated food, and through injury. A footmen who gets scratched by a ghoul might head back to his barracks only to later turn and infect his buddies. It's your standard zombie apocalypse scenario... except that these zombies are backed by ghosts, necromancers, giant spiders, skeletal dragons, and a psychic demigod.

WoW did a lot to downplay the effectiveness of the Lich King and the Scourge, but there was still no "realistic" way for the Alliance or Horde to win short of a Deus ex Machina or the Lich King making a major mistake. Blizzard gave us both.

Last edited by Egrem; 03-05-2015 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:23 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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ARM3481 and Egrem covered it.

Go look up what happened to the Carthaginians and the Axis nations when a power takes on another power that has the edge when it comes to manpower, production, what have you. The Scourge are the Romans or the United States. The Allies and the Horde are the Axis nations.

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Old 03-05-2015, 10:47 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I don't think the Scourge could be defeated through conventional warfare.

Undead troops don't require food or water, but they can contaminate supplies to deny them to the living. They don't sleep and never grow fatigued, so they can march and fight at peak efficiency twenty-four hours a day. Morale is a non-issue for the undead, but they excel at instilling confusion and terror among the living.

Combatants generally represent a small portion of a nation's overall population. In the case of the U.S., it's less than 1% now. It was almost 10% at the end of World War II, and on Azeroth the average might be even higher... but when the Scourge takes a village or city or kingdom, it converts nearly 100% of the population into combatants of one sort or another. After what the Scourge did to Northrend, Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, and Dalaran, it would have had more troops than all of Azeroth's other armies put together.

Attrition also favours the Scourge. When a living soldier falls, he becomes an undead soldier. When an undead soldier falls... he probably gets back up sooner or later, unless he's damaged beyond any hope of repair. Anyone infected by the plague is also added to the Scourge's ranks, and it's been shown to spread through the air, through contaminated food, and through injury. A footmen who gets scratched by a ghoul might head back to his barracks only to later turn and infect his buddies. It's your standard zombie apocalypse scenario... except that these zombies are backed by ghosts, necromancers, giant spiders, skeletal dragons, and a psychic demigod.

WoW did a lot to downplay the effectiveness of the Lich King and the Scourge, but there was still no "realistic" way for the Alliance or Horde to win short of a Deus ex Machina or the Lich King making a major mistake. Blizzard gave us both.
It's a matter of adapting and fighting on favorable terms.

The undead do not require food/water/rest, but the necromancers and acolytes are still very much alive. They both play pretty vital roles in the Scourge army. If they necromancer is not present with the main army, then they won't be raising any more undead. If the acolytes aren't present with the main army, then there won't be any support to their infrastructure.

Also, even without fatigue there will still be wear and tear. And a damaged body is still a damaged body, pain or no pain. If a ghoul losses a leg marching across the continent, then it won't be able to charge at an enemy, so no peak efficiency.

The notion that every slain becomes a Scourge member is far from accurate. In strict WC lore, the only things that the Scourge can raise on battlefield are skeletons, which can be mass dispelled. The main units that are killed couldn't be raised back on the spot either, so they don't just get up and continue fighting. If you want to factor reality into it, a single dwarven siege engine running at top speed can crush all the cheaper units that the Scourge can field (this is something most zombie apocalypse scenarios forgets). You do that, then the Alliance alone could take out more units faster than the Scourge can field.

Whatever forces the Scourge had accumulated in the EK, they used on Kalimdor. Various pocket resistances in EK, including the Forsaken, forced them to use more. Their campaign through Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, and Dalaran required the use of force. The TFT campaign also featured them fighting the Illidari. The Scourge aren't continuously accumulating more soldiers without loss, and the ones they lost didn't just come back.

Blizzard gave us deus ex machina and an incompetent Lich King not so we can win, they did it because it's how they write.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
Explan how the player factions would get a conventional victory over the Scourge without the Lich King screwing up or any Deus Ex Machinas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
ARM3481 and Egrem covered it.

Go look up what happened to the Carthaginians and the Axis nations when a power takes on another power that has the edge when it comes to manpower, production, what have you. The Scourge are the Romans or the United States. The Allies and the Horde are the Axis nations.
Don't try to pull this stunt. I am not going to go look up anything. The discussion here is not how a weaker power can take on another, but how a presumed stronger power is not actually that strong.

Should have known better than taken the bait. The first quoted post is an attempt at absolving yourself of burden of proof, while giving yourself a chance to pick what points to attack in any following replies.

Last edited by TerrorhoofMayo; 03-05-2015 at 11:03 PM..
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