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  #5576  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:27 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
I call myself atheistic.
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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
Because I'm not an atheist.
What's the difference between being atheistic and being an atheist?
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  #5577  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:31 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
I myself is an "atheistic" heathen. I honour the ways, morals and beliefs of the ancestors but I do not believe in the literal existence of the gods. I've spoken to several that do really belive and I'm fine with that. Modern paganism/heathenism is a very personal belief, free of the shackles of dogma.
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Belief itself only works with dogma. Otherwise you're not believing, you're empirically acknowledging something.
See, I agree with miffy here (if I'm understanding correctly). An atheistic heathen and a deistic heathen may both agree that people in the past did some fine things... but from what you describe, the metaphysical worldviews are entirely different. Honestly, most people in the world probably honor the ways, morals, and beliefs of some ancestors. I know I do. But that probably wouldn't qualify me as a heathen.

You can refer to the shackles of dogma, but... I mean, do you ever discuss with other heathens the question of whether their understanding is correct or whether yours is? Are there some heathens that you agree with much more strongly than others? After a discussion with other heathens, has your mind been changed about a critical point, or have you changed someone else's mind? Answering yes to any of those is treading close to a common belief, plus evangelism. It's flirting with those very same shackles of dogma.

But that's not a bad thing, because let's face it: when we talk about something that isn't religion, we generally assume that one version is correct while the other versions are all wrong. It's not offensive; it's just the search for truth.

EDIT: And when you read that and think, "Grackle, that's because science and history are facts. But your religion is just glorified fanfiction within the real world!", that's you hearing something wrong and responding with the correct version. Your personal dogma that you would impose on the world, because truth is better than lies.

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  #5578  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:34 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
Because I'm not an atheist, I'm an atheistic heathen.
Umm...there's no difference. Contrary to what some youtubers may try to spin, atheism is not a religion, or a movement, or an ideology.
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  #5579  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:41 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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See, I agree with miffy here (if I'm understanding correctly). An atheistic heathen and a deistic heathen may both agree that people in the past did some fine things... but from what you describe, the metaphysical worldviews are entirely different. Honestly, most people in the world probably honor the ways, morals, and beliefs of some ancestors. I know I do. But that probably wouldn't qualify me as a heathen.

You can refer to the shackles of dogma, but... I mean, do you ever discuss with other heathens the question of whether their understanding is correct or whether yours is? Are there some heathens that you agree with much more strongly than others? After a discussion with other heathens, has your mind been changed about a critical point, or have you changed someone else's mind? Answering yes to any of those is treading close to a common belief, plus evangelism. It's flirting with those very same shackles of dogma.

But that's not a bad thing, because let's face it: when we talk about something that isn't religion, we generally assume that one version is correct while the other versions are all wrong. It's not offensive; it's just the search for truth.
Of course, we disagree with each others all the time, that's why there's several groups with different agendas and view points from the universalists to the rare extremists. Hell, there's pan-pagan groups that mix and blend but they're usually met with a sigh and a facepalm from the followers of celtic, norse or slavic faiths.

When I say heathen, I specifically mean norse paganism. We prefer to call ourselves heathens.

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Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
There is no real authorities within heathenry, the closest to that are the various priests and high priests that are given respect for their extensive knowledge of the old ways. The vast majority of heathens are not members of any groups, like myself. Though I do align myself the most towards the viewpoint of the american Asatru Folk Assembly.

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Umm...there's no difference. Contrary to what some youtubers may try to spin, atheism is not a religion, or a movement, or an ideology.
Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. That is it's literal definition. but as I consider myself a follower of a faith with no belief in it's gods literal existence I prefer to say atheistic when I describe myself.
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  #5580  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:46 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
Of course, we disagree with each others all the time, that's why there's several groups with different agendas and view points from the universalists to the rare extremists. Hell, there's pan-pagan groups that mix and blend but they're usually met with a sigh and a facepalm from the followers of celtic, norse or slavic faiths.

When I say heathen, I specifically mean norse paganism. We prefer to call ourselves heathens.


There is no real authorities within heathenry, the closest to that are the various priests and high priests that are given respect for their extensive knowledge of the old ways. The vast majority of heathens are not members of any groups, like myself. Though I do align myself the most towards the viewpoint of the american Asatru Folk Assembly.



Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. That is it's literal definition. but as I consider myself a follower of a faith with no belief in it's gods literal existence I prefer to say atheistic when I describe myself.
There is no "faith without belief". Are you saying you like to follow the practices and traditions of some religious ideologies, without believing in them? What you are describing is basically mysticism and shamanism, nontheless a faith-based ideology.
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  #5581  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:51 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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There is no "faith without belief". Are you saying you like to follow the practices and traditions of some religious ideologies, without believing in them? What you are describing is basically mysticism and shamanism, nontheless a faith-based ideology.
Well, imo your "logic" is flawed. I can still be a heathen, that follows and honour the morals, laws and spirituality of the faith without believing in the existence of it's gods. I think you're confuced because you view it from abrahamitic world view. Everything comes from Jahveh in abrahamitic faith, while in heathenry everything comes from the Folk and the universe. As I said, I do not believe in Odin as a real entity but as an archetype.
Call it undeistic sprituality.

you wrote about shamanism and mysticism, that is two ways of describing many of the pagan faiths. Heathenry is quite shamanistic.
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  #5582  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:59 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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What are these honors and morals you follow, exactly?
Because the Norse religion have never, I repeat; NEVER, been a unified and organized religion. What people refer to when they talk about Norse religion and traditions are constructed ideals from the 19th century, a conglomeration of all the different beliefs that were present in Scandinavia prior to the christening of the nordic lands.
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  #5583  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:07 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I think what Yaska is talking about is akin to being a Cultural Christian except not Christian but pagan. Being a CC means believing that Christian morals are right, that Christian traditions matter to <insert country>, that we should honor and respect these ways that so many of our ancestors did... BUT without actually believing that any of the "magical" stuff is true, you just respect Christianity as your culture, not your truth if you will.

Otoh he did mention spirituality which is decidedly not atheistic and puts him beyond the realm of being a Cultural Pagan.
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  #5584  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:17 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think what Yaska is talking about is akin to being a Cultural Christian except not Christian but pagan. Being a CC means believing that Christian morals are right, that Christian traditions matter to <insert country>, that we should honor and respect these ways that so many of our ancestors did... BUT without actually believing that any of the "magical" stuff is true, you just respect Christianity as your culture, not your truth if you will.

Otoh he did mention spirituality which is decidedly not atheistic and puts him beyond the realm of being a Cultural Pagan.
You've almost gotten the hang of what I mean. No surprise to me, I've always considered you a bright person.
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  #5585  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:27 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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There is no "faith without belief". Are you saying you like to follow the practices and traditions of some religious ideologies, without believing in them? What you are describing is basically mysticism and shamanism, nontheless a faith-based ideology.
Yaskaleh has a belief, but this belief is not that there is Gods to worship, but more conceptualized ideas and values to follow. In a sense, ancient Buddhism was close to that : a religion without a God to worship. Of course, in both case, us Westerners tend to say that it is a philosophy or way or life instead of religion, but it can be both or either for different members of said faith/philosophy.

So, in the case of Yaskaleh, he is more in the "faith" side, so he is technically correct in that he is an heathen (he doesn't hold the Creed of Christianity or any monotheism as his own) and an atheist (he doesn't believe in Gods). Obviously, such belief are alien for societies shaped by the abrahamic faiths, because in those God/Allah/Yahweh is central and you can't really be a believer if you don't believe that the Great Guy exist.
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  #5586  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:46 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Err..that still doesn't make you atheistic. Atheism doesn't just mean not believing in specific deities, but in any kind of supernatural explanation for real life occurences whatsoever. What you describe doesn't adhere to that.
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  #5587  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:48 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Err..that still doesn't make you atheistic. Atheism doesn't just mean not believing in specific deities, but in any kind of supernatural explanation for real life occurences whatsoever. What you describe doesn't adhere to that.
Yes, I do not believe in the supernatural such as gods and deities. That is the only correct use of atheism in the context of religion.
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  #5588  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:51 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think what Yaska is talking about is akin to being a Cultural Christian except not Christian but pagan. Being a CC means believing that Christian morals are right, that Christian traditions matter to <insert country>, that we should honor and respect these ways that so many of our ancestors did... BUT without actually believing that any of the "magical" stuff is true, you just respect Christianity as your culture, not your truth if you will.
See, I'd say similar things to Cultural Christians.
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  #5589  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:54 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Yes, I do not believe in the supernatural such as gods and deities. That is the only correct use of atheism in the context of religion.
Well then you're an atheist ^^
There is no other context for atheism.

I think I understand your position now, I was just getting confused by the terminologies you were using.
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  #5590  
Old 02-06-2015, 10:21 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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See, I'd say similar things to Cultural Christians.
Well I am pretty much one so what would you say to me?
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  #5591  
Old 02-06-2015, 10:36 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Why is Obama talking about Christianity doing bad things centuries ago at the National Prayer Breakfast? It seems kind of irrelevant. Some atheists had done terrible things too and even some because they held religiosity in contempt and wanted to suppress it. There is no reason the western world can not judge barbarism or savagery in other parts of the world because of something that happened in the past. We have earned the right to ride on our high horse. Trying to rationalize a moral equivalence is nihilistic.
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  #5592  
Old 02-06-2015, 11:04 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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We have earned the right to ride on our high horse.
We as a collective, as the Western world, have earned nothing of the sort. You may have personally earned a seat on the high horse, but don't fucking drag me along on that.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:46 PM
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Why is Obama talking about Christianity doing bad things centuries ago at the National Prayer Breakfast? It seems kind of irrelevant. Some atheists had done terrible things too and even some because they held religiosity in contempt and wanted to suppress it. There is no reason the western world can not judge barbarism or savagery in other parts of the world because of something that happened in the past. We have earned the right to ride on our high horse. Trying to rationalize a moral equivalence is nihilistic.
Remember all those democracies in South America we replaced with brutal dictatorships? Remind me how long ago that was?
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:54 PM
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Remember all those democracies in South America we replaced with brutal dictatorships? Remind me how long ago that was?
Oh pshhh. That's all in the past.
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  #5595  
Old 02-06-2015, 01:29 PM
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Old 02-06-2015, 01:39 PM
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What's the difference between being atheistic and being an atheist?
"-ic" as a suffic generally means "characterized by/having tendencies like" a thing. So one could "be an athiest" or "be atheistic"... But that seems like kind of an arbitrary/silly dichotomy.

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Err..that still doesn't make you atheistic. Atheism doesn't just mean not believing in specific deities, but in any kind of supernatural explanation for real life occurences whatsoever. What you describe doesn't adhere to that.
Not quite. At least, not necessarily.

Atheist comes from the Greek "theos" meaning "god" and the Greek negation suffix "a-". Basically "without God".

Doesn't say anything about supernatural explanations. An atheist simply is 'without God'; does not believe in the existence of diety.
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  #5597  
Old 02-06-2015, 02:06 PM
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Not quite. At least, not necessarily.

Atheist comes from the Greek "theos" meaning "god" and the Greek negation suffix "a-". Basically "without God".

Doesn't say anything about supernatural explanations. An atheist simply is 'without God'; does not believe in the existence of diety.
The linguistic contours surrounding the connotation of 'atheism' have moved past its most basic denotation. But its meaning is dependent on its contextual use. For some, it's strictly the denotation while in others its the broader connotation. I.e., you can both be right in this case.

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  #5598  
Old 02-06-2015, 02:13 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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The contemporary context for "atheism" is definitely the acknowledgement of science and logic, and reason, to explain the world around us, and lack of any kind of faith or belief system. No shamanism, mainstream religion, or belief in any deity or supernatural powers.
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  #5599  
Old 02-06-2015, 02:24 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Oh pshhh. That's all in the past.
It is in the past though. We can debate the objective of it or talk about alternate history but nothing can be done about it. How long do we have to self-flagellate over it or try justify it? I rather look at the big picture. I am glad communism is weaker but don't see the point in playing the what-if game about a decision I wasn't involved in.

It shouldn't lead to any passivity towards people that are torturing, raping, and murdering children in the middle east regardless.
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  #5600  
Old 02-06-2015, 02:34 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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The contemporary context for "atheism" is definitely the acknowledgement of science and logic, and reason, to explain the world around us, and lack of any kind of faith or belief system. No shamanism, mainstream religion, or belief in any deity or supernatural powers.
Nope it isn't. Triumvirate has it right.
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