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  #51  
Old 03-22-2016, 07:45 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by HackBenjamin View Post

If void and fel were the same, why are they not occupying the same space on the cosmology map?
If I can offer something here, it's that I don't believe the cosmology map is intended to be taken at face value. It just paints a picture of all the major forces, both conscious and unconscious, that are at play in the universe. It's literally an artist's rendition of those forces, which implies symmetry and opposition in a way that I don't feel accurately represents reality as described in Chronicle itself.
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  #52  
Old 03-22-2016, 07:55 AM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Originally Posted by HackBenjamin View Post
Except one fells trees, while the other constructs with or shapes lumber. They both use wood, yes. This doesn't mean they serve the same function.
I believe you've missed my point.

Both Fel and Void are magic. They are the same in that regard.
Both Fel and Void are chaotic. They are the same in that regard.

The thing that differentiates Void from Fel is a reasoning that does not prove Void is different from Fel. If there is something that truly differentiates Void from Fel, I'll acknowledge that they're different.


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Originally Posted by Eelgrin View Post
IIf void and fel were the same, why are they not occupying the same space on the cosmology map?
Because Blizzard makes fruitless attempts to establish forms of magic? Magic is magic mate, c'mon now.

Last edited by necrophotic; 03-22-2016 at 07:59 AM..
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  #53  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:05 AM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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you are looking for a level of purity that is impossible once more than one creator has touched a creation.
I know, and it's hard for me to stop looking for that. I embrace what I'm passionate about, but looking for that level of purity seems like a fruitless endeavor.

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I advise you to put this passion towards something that can actually impact our real world in a positive way.
I appreciate the advice and I hope I can
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  #54  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:17 AM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
If I can offer something here, it's that I don't believe the cosmology map is intended to be taken at face value. It just paints a picture of all the major forces, both conscious and unconscious, that are at play in the universe. It's literally an artist's rendition of those forces, which implies symmetry and opposition in a way that I don't feel accurately represents reality as described in Chronicle itself.
I understand. I would however contend that even the artist was inclined to put these two forces in separate areas. It's not a hardline guide to the cosmic forces at play in the universe, but it paints a pretty clear picture, especially when used in conjunction with what is written.
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  #55  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:20 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I believe you've missed my point.

Both Fel and Void are magic. They are the same in that regard.
Both Fel and Void are chaotic. They are the same in that regard.

The thing that differentiates Void from Fel is a reasoning that does not prove Void is different from Fel. If there is something that truly differentiates Void from Fel, I'll acknowledge that they're different.
They have completely different effects on beings formed or deformed by them.

Fel: Horns, wings, hoofs.



Void: Tentacles, tendrils, deformity.
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  #56  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:33 AM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
I believe you've missed my point.

Both Fel and Void are magic. They are the same in that regard.
Both Fel and Void are chaotic. They are the same in that regard.

The thing that differentiates Void from Fel is a reasoning that does not prove Void is different from Fel. If there is something that truly differentiates Void from Fel, I'll acknowledge that they're different.
Fel and void draw power from different sources.
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  #57  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:34 AM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
They have completely different effects on beings formed or deformed by them.
The effects on beings formed or deformed by them seem to be the same, so I don't know why you stated that.

Both demons and creatures of the void feed upon life and magic. Both demons and creatures of the void are immortal. They're both aberrations.

And demons doesn't need to have horns or wings, look at Observsers, Void Hounds, Infernals, and Abyssals.

Observers in particular seem more like aberrations from Old Gods than abberatipns from the TN.
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  #58  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:40 AM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Originally Posted by HackBenjamin View Post
Fel and void draw power from different sources.
What suggests this? Both powers come at a price per canon and both of their sources, which would be composed of chaotic energies, can be accessed by sacrificing life essences (blood and souls).

We have Gul'dan ritually sacrificing and using the blood of a draenei child to open a fel portal in the MU and Ne'zhul sacrificing blood of a draenei in the AU to grant him the powers of the Deat...Dark Star.

Last edited by necrophotic; 03-22-2016 at 08:49 AM..
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  #59  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:46 AM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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What suggests this? Both powers come at a price per canon and both of their sources, which contain chaotic magics, can be accessed by sacrificing life essences (blood and souls)
Chronicle. And no where does it say that Void draws power from sacrificial magic/blood magic.
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  #60  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:49 AM
Morvant Morvant is offline

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And demons doesn't need to have horns or wings, look at Observsers, Void Hounds, Infernals, and Abyssals.
The status of Observers and Void Hound as demons is debatable. Infernals and abyssals are constructs.
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  #61  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:51 AM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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The status of Observers and Void Hound as demons is debatable. Infernals and abyssals are constructs.
Well void hounds are, but yeah observers didn't sound like demons to me in the bit about them in the green fire quest.
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  #62  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:55 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
The effects on beings formed or deformed by them seem to be the same, so I don't know why you stated that.

Both demons and creatures of the void feed upon life and magic. Both demons and creatures of the void are immortal. They're both aberrations.

And demons doesn't need to have horns or wings, look at Observsers, Void Hounds, Infernals, and Abyssals.

Observers in particular seem more like aberrations from Old Gods than abberatipns from the TN.
You completely missed the point (or ignored). I have not meant that all the demons have wings or horns, only you do not see any combination of wings, horns and hoofs on any beings formed or deformed by Void and viceversa. This evident lack means the effects are not same, because if they would, you would see as many horned, winged and hoofed Void beings as demons.
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  #63  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:55 AM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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I'll also point out that light can't exist without the void. Fel couldn't exist in the absence of either.
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  #64  
Old 03-22-2016, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by HackBenjamin View Post
Chronicle. And no where does it say that Void draws power from sacrificial magic/blood magic.
The Chronicle established that Void energies, which are chaotic by the way, exist in the Void. However, it doesn't establish what method is employed to access the Void.

Quote:
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Questisrupt_the_Rituals

Dark shamanism is a dangerous practice, <name>.
It is true that the void can be a source of terrible power, but it is the kind of power that comes at a price.
Quote:
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Shadows_Awaken

Ner'zhul says: Your blood will grant me the powers of the Dark Star. To Shaz'gul with you!
Quote:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/19955662/

Warlocks peer into the Void without hesitation, leveraging the chaos they glimpse within to devastating ends in battle?their greatest abilities are fueled by the souls they?ve harvested from their victims.

Warlocks harvest the souls of their defeated enemies; those specialized in the ways of demonology use this life essence to tap into the Void, pulling all manner of abomination from the chaos of the Twisting Nether.
The Void can be accessed by sacrificing and tapping into life essence (souls), which blood is also considered per canon.
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  #65  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:01 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Sargeras View Post
Why? Void Lords are a race and probably those we've seen are just the weaker ones, while those that are really powerful can't appear in the physical universe.
That's the exact opposite of what Chronicles says on the matter. Only the stronger ones have the power to reach out and manifest in the physical reality.
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  #66  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:04 AM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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I just realized the formation of the Warcraft universe is kind of like Muspelheim's heat and Niflheim's cold forming Ginnungagap between them.
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  #67  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:07 AM
Sargeras Sargeras is offline

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
I'm presuming they can. Is there anything that suggests they can't?
In order to turn to void, a naaru has to loose all the light. Therefore, in order to turn to the light, a void lord has to gain lots of light. In orger to gain something, you have to have a source of that, and a very powerful source in case of the void gods. However, you don't need a source of something to loose that.

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It would actually be: without Light, there is no Void.
Why? Void is the absence of anything, including Light. So presence of light is not required. Its the other way around, actually.

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No I'm not
Oh, those wonderful "Yes I am"/"No I'm not" arguments from necrophotic

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Cemotucu is clearly a part of a group that is having a rather difficult time understanding that there can't be such a thing as the "absence of anything"
You are clearly a part of a group that is having a rather difficult time understanding that claims require proof to be accepted.

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
Both Fel and Void are magic. They are the same in that regard.
Both Fel and Void are chaotic. They are the same in that regard.
Both of them are sources of magic, not magic. Also, Void is nothingness, and nothingness cannot be chaotic. So they are, in fact, opposite in that regard.
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Probably too out there to be true, but it's fun to speculate.
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This is literally worse than what you'd expect an obssessed, autistic teenage fanboy to write.
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Becoming the guardian must endow you in ways other than magical because Aegwynn's tits are nearly the size of her head.
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  #68  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:09 AM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
You completely missed the point
I didn't.

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
only you do not see any combination of wings, horns and hoofs on any beings formed or deformed by Void and viceversa.
A lack of any combination of wings, horns and hoofs on a being isn't proof that the being isn't a demon. And both void and fel energies can be used to shape the bodies of beings into specific forms. So...
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  #69  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:11 AM
Takunava Takunava is offline

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
I believe you've missed my point.

The thing that differentiates Void from Fel is a reasoning that does not prove Void is different from Fel. If there is something that truly differentiates Void from Fel, I'll acknowledge that they're different.
From what I understand, There is a passage in Chronicle stating that The Twisting Nether is a parallel existence to the Great Dark, created by the continued chaotic interaction between Light and Void. Also, that Fel energy is fueled by drawing Life from living beings.

If living beings are comprised of both Light and Void, and the entirety of existence in both the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether are due to the clash of the Light and the Void, then it stands to reason that all Magic is a product of the same, that is, except for Light and Void.

If "Magic is Magic" as you say, then by that argument the Light and Void are the same. Which they very well may be, as seen in the Life cycle of the Naruu. But saying Void and Fel are the same cannot be true, as it seems that Fel is a product of Void and Light.

I can expand on this tonight once my copy is delivered, but I wanted to add my $.02 in while my thoughts were fresh!
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  #70  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:11 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
A lack of any combination of wings, horns and hoofs on a being isn't proof that the being isn't a demon. And both void and fel energies can be used to shape the bodies of beings into specific forms. So...
This still has nothing to do with my point.
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  #71  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:16 AM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
Unique.
One of a kind.
Different from Fel.
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  #72  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:24 AM
Sargeras Sargeras is offline

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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
Yes really.
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Yes, I do.
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I won't.
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Yes they can
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Yes they are.
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I'm not wrong.
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Originally Posted by necrophotic View Post
No I'm not
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I didn't.
What a nice person
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This is literally worse than what you'd expect an obssessed, autistic teenage fanboy to write.
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Becoming the guardian must endow you in ways other than magical because Aegwynn's tits are nearly the size of her head.
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Sylvanas "I need to create a bunch of meat shields to protect me because otherwise I might suffer consequences for my actions" Windrunner.
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  #73  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:30 AM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Originally Posted by Sargeras View Post
In order to turn to void, a naaru has to loose all the light. Therefore, in order to turn to the light, a void lord has to gain lots of light.
A Void Lord can't gain lots of light because Void is the absence of anything according to you. It can't contain light.


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Originally Posted by Sargeras View Post
Void is the absence of anything
You're part of the group that's having a hard time understanding that there isn't such thing as "the absence of anything" too.

If the Void is the absence OF anything, absence is what anything possesses. If there isn't anything, there is no absence of it.


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Originally Posted by Sargeras View Post
So presence of light is not required. Its the other way around, actually.
Nope.



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Originally Posted by Sargeras View Post
You are clearly a part of a group that is having a rather difficult time understanding that claims require proof to be accepted.
Here you go, lying again. I've presented proof that the Void isn't the absence of anything via tweet from Matt Burns. It's a "real" force.

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Originally Posted by Sargeras View Post
Both of them are sources of magic, not magic.
Void is considered both a realm and an energy.

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Originally Posted by Sargeras View Post
Void is nothingness, and nothingness cannot be chaotic.
You don't know what the term chaotic means.

Quote:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ic#Suffix

Ic: Used to form adjectives from nouns with the meaning "of or pertaining to";
The term chaotic means "of or pertaining to chaos". If the Void is of chaos or pertains to chaos, it's chaotic. If the Void is an actual force rather than that absence of anything, it's chaotic in the sense that it naturally wants to spread out and become messy. Matt Burns just thinks there are exceptions to the rule when it comes to Warcraft powers. So yes, the void is the same as fel (chaotic energy) in a regard because they're both chaotic, regardless of the fact that void is not fel because of "exception to the rule".




And here's more proof that the Void pertains to chaos, but you'll probably disregard all these canon sources proving that the Void is chaotic despite the fact that you've bitched at others because you don't want them "disregarding" canon:

Quote:
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Puzzle_Box_of_Yogg-Saron#Notes

Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: Beneath the shadow of the darkened spire, there is no light, no mercy, only void, and the chaos within.
Quote:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/19955662/

Warlocks peer into the Void without hesitation, leveraging the chaos they glimpse within to devastating ends in battle

Warlocks harvest the souls of their defeated enemies; those specialized in the ways of demonology use this life essence to tap into the Void, pulling all manner of abomination from the chaos of the Twisting Nether.

Now, where's your canon proof that the Void isn't chaotic? Ahhh, that's right. You have none.

Last edited by necrophotic; 03-22-2016 at 09:48 AM..
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  #74  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:36 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Are we debating whether the Void is chaotic or not?

In Blizzard terms, chaotic is a euphemism for bad. I don't think there's much to be gained by arguing the semantics of the word.
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  #75  
Old 03-22-2016, 09:52 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Fel is expressly the magic of disorder, being the antithesis of arcane, which is the magic of order.

Void isn't chaotic like fel because along with Light, it comprises both the chaotic and the ordered universe. It's "half" of everything, which includes chaos, but also includes order.

Fel doesn't exist as part of order; it tears order down, creating more fel.
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