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Old 10-02-2014, 08:59 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Default Should the Alliance invade Lordaeron?

Split off from the Varian thread for off-topicness.

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You think that Onyxia made Bolvar place forces in Lordaeron?
I imagine the opposite. I suspect the Alliance response to the Scourge would have been much better without her. At the very least, they'd be fighting the Scourge rather than just letting independent military organizations do it for them.

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And they don't have to work out shit with the Horde because they should consider the Horde's presence there at all to be illegitimate and refuse to recognize it.
They can certainly do that but the reverse is certainly true as well and the Horde has a military presence to enforce their claim to the land plus settlers. Real-life shows how messy this can get when two idealogically opposed factions have built permanent residences in a contested area.

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Are you going to tell me with a straight face that you don't think the Scourge was the most powerful force and the greatest threat in Lordaeron in Vanilla?
I absolutely think the Scourge was the major source of problems in the game with the Forsaken and Scarlet/Argents being a lesser force. Even without the Lich King, I think the Scourge is the major power in Lordaeron.

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I never said that they were all soldiers, I said that they aren't the people of Lordaeron.
And every single one of them will fight for their homeland, which they identify as their own. Meaning that there's a massive army of Horde forces on Lordaeron soil which consider it their land by birth and the others to be invaders.

Which goes back to what you say later.

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Darkspear are weak as shit and can't project power to Lordaeron. Tauren are weak as shit and can't project power to Lordaeron. Blood Elves are weak as shit and don't care about the Forsaken. Orcs have been sundered and are unable to project power to Lordaeron.

Whether or not the Alliance legitimately "won" the war is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that the Horde has been sufficiently weakened that they would be unable to maintain their foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms if the Alliance moved against it.
I would disagree with your assesment of both the Darkspear as well as the Tauren given both have had a generation to build up their ranks with membership in the Horde. The Blood Elves are also intimately tied to the Forsaken because they owe their membership in the Horde to Sylvanas as well as her assistance to rebuild Quel'Thalas. Indeed, the Blood Elves are the group which is MOST LIKELY to help the Horde there being they're on the same continent and have been driven out of Dalaran.

Either way, the Horde will reinforce the Forsaken. You also have a catch-22 situation as you've stated you dont consider the Forsaken to be citizens of Lordaeron. Therefore, they have no reason NOT to fight to the death. Furthermore, every Alliance soldier which dies can be resurrected as a member of the Forsaken only to find the Alliance will no longer accept them as soldiers.

It's kind of the irony as the Forsaken would probably JOIN the Alliance if they were accepted.

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The Argent Crusade is made up of a bunch of former Alliance members who use Alliance equipment, eat Alliance food, take Alliance money, use Alliance stone and lumber to build their ships and houses, are devotees to a religion who's headquartered in Stormwind, use Alliance transports, Alliance bases, and Alliance infrastructure.
The Alliance has made clear they don't give a crap about Lordaeron or fighting the Scourge so the Argent Crusade undoubtedly accumulated all of its resources on its own. VARIAN might care but he was after the Lich King first then he had bigger problems.

The AC owes the Alliance the same as the Scarlet Crusade--which is nothing. The Argent Crusade has also been receiving plenty of support from the Horde too.

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And they still declare neutrality and look the other way as Alliance citizens are murdered and tortured right on their doorstep.Fuck the Argents and the horse they rode in on. At this point the Alliance would be within their rights to evict them by force if they won't join the Alliance or give up their lands in the Eastern Kingdoms to the Alliance.
I'm sorry, but that just is where your post goes to nonsensical. The Argents are the only ones fighting the Scourge after the debacle at Wraithgate and before then, they were the only ones fighting the Scourge other than the SC.

But really, it all boils down to the fact the Forsaken are the largest group of Lordaeron survivors and they won't be removed except by force--which is hard when they outnumber the living survivors of the land, know the land, are fortified in the land, have access to the support of the Horde, and can raise attacking Alliance soldiers as members of their own.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:00 PM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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Oh Christ...
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:01 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Sonneillon View Post
Oh Christ...
Hey, it's a new argument to me.

If it's a problem for you, we can barricade this thread off from civilized peoples and let the monsters duke it out.

Like Lordaeron.

:-)

If nothing else, any time the argument comes up in other threads, it can be directed here.

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Old 10-02-2014, 09:15 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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How about the Alliance get themselves some teeth (development) before they try something big.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:20 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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BTW, to clarify, I'm speaking from a lore-perspective divorced from the game where it would be impossible.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:36 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I came into this thread just to laugh.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Also to put up the quarantine sticker.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:41 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Yeah, I'm guessing this is a topic discussed to death around here.

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Old 10-02-2014, 09:41 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I would disagree with your assesment of both the Darkspear as well as the Tauren given both have had a generation to build up their ranks with membership in the Horde. The Blood Elves are also intimately tied to the Forsaken because they owe their membership in the Horde to Sylvanas as well as her assistance to rebuild Quel'Thalas. Indeed, the Blood Elves are the group which is MOST LIKELY to help the Horde there being they're on the same continent and have been driven out of Dalaran.

Either way, the Horde will reinforce the Forsaken. You also have a catch-22 situation as you've stated you dont consider the Forsaken to be citizens of Lordaeron. Therefore, they have no reason NOT to fight to the death. Furthermore, every Alliance soldier which dies can be resurrected as a member of the Forsaken only to find the Alliance will no longer accept them as soldiers.
I had a point by point rebuttal all typed out until I got to this section and realized that it's suddenly 2011 again judging by your posts and I'm not willing to do this entire fucking song and dance again.

Kill all Forsaken, burn the corpses, fire the ashes out into space.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:58 PM
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There really is no reason to not kill every last member of the Horde. If there were a button that could be pressed to do the job at no expense, it's the only sound course of action for the Alliance to take. Even if the Alliance attempted to threaten the Horde with it, they'd only start a war over it rather than back down from the Alliance's demands.
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Old 10-02-2014, 10:16 PM
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Old 10-02-2014, 10:37 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I had a point by point rebuttal all typed out until I got to this section and realized that it's suddenly 2011 again judging by your posts and I'm not willing to do this entire fucking song and dance again.

Kill all Forsaken, burn the corpses, fire the ashes out into space.
...

Okay.

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Old 10-02-2014, 10:56 PM
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Old 10-02-2014, 11:12 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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*image*


Seriously, what's that?
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Old 10-02-2014, 11:17 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Well, you got me forum.

I stepped in it.

I bow my head in defeat.



I am flames.

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Old 10-02-2014, 11:37 PM
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*Angry Video Game Nerd*

Seriously, what's that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x07a-UNvVk

The metaphor is that it's an all consuming never ending topic of suffering that bothers the eyes and mind in it's gruesome orgy of ever consuming idiocy. Threads not about Lordaeron is the worm, Fojar is the leech. The more you know *====
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:02 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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And the crazy thing?

I thought it was an interesting topic. There's a lot to cover.

* Would the territory gained be worth it?
* Do the Forsaken have a right to the land they grew up on?
* What are the strategic concerns?
* Is peace with the Horde worth it?
* Could Stormwind annex it without issue?
* Would dividing up the land be better?

Lots and lots of stuff.

I'm still not sure what the hell the 2011 comment was about.
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:02 AM
Mshadowz Mshadowz is offline

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Old 10-03-2014, 02:31 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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The ride will never end.
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Old 10-03-2014, 02:57 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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From the Varian thread, although I suspect the discussion will still continue there rather than here, but just in-case:

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Let's just be realistic here, it's very simple. At the end of the SoO/Alliance-Horde War, it's clear the Horde is in no position to stand up to the Alliance on a "superpower" level right now.

Therefore if - and I agree with Fojar that he should - Varian decided to retake Lordaeron; there's no real arguement that he'd be able to pull it off. Sylvanas would no doubt go down kicking and screaming, throwing Plague/Blight-shit everywhere, letting loose whatever secret weapons she's got up her sleeve. But in the end, the Forsaken would be gone (or moreorless gone, might be a handful of them left over the world) and Lordaeron would be back in the hands of the Alliance.

But this was never going to happen (and will never happen) while WoW is here. The Forsaken, like it or not, are a playable race. There was never even the chance of Blizzard giving back Lordaeron to the Alliance. Regardless of how much it actually fucks the narrative up with NOT doing it; there would simply be far too many gameplay issues to do it. And we all know Gameplay will always come first while WoW is their cash-cow.

People need to accept this and move on, because (and I've done it myself, so I can sympathise) otherwise you'll just get more and more angry/frustrated at the Narrative/Story.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:23 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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No because my waifu lives there.

Honest answer: Yes
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  #21  
Old 10-03-2014, 03:29 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Well, it's off topic in the other thread and even if Fojar has no interest in discussing the issue *I* do, and I will carry on here.

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Let's just be realistic here, it's very simple. At the end of the SoO/Alliance-Horde War, it's clear the Horde is in no position to stand up to the Alliance on a "superpower" level right now.

Therefore if - and I agree with Fojar that he should - Varian decided to retake Lordaeron; there's no real arguement that he'd be able to pull it off. Sylvanas would no doubt go down kicking and screaming, throwing Plague/Blight-shit everywhere, letting loose whatever secret weapons she's got up her sleeve. But in the end, the Forsaken would be gone (or moreorless gone, might be a handful of them left over the world) and Lordaeron would be back in the hands of the Alliance.

But this was never going to happen (and will never happen) while WoW is here. The Forsaken, like it or not, are a playable race. There was never even the chance of Blizzard giving back Lordaeron to the Alliance. Regardless of how much it actually fucks the narrative up with NOT doing it; there would simply be far too many gameplay issues to do it. And we all know Gameplay will always come first while WoW is their cash-cow.

People need to accept this and move on, because (and I've done it myself, so I can sympathise) otherwise you'll just get more and more angry/frustrated at the Narrative/Story.
This is a thread which specifically negates the role of WOW as a factor in whether the Alliance should retake Lordaeron. It's about the lore purely rather than gameplay.

Which I think makes the discussion more interesting.

I disagree with your answer, though. The idea the Alliance is all sunshine and roses at the end of MOP is a kind of bizarre interpretation of events. They've lost Theramore, they've lost lots of other territory, and the Horde has just found itself a new Warchief who is not only more competent than Garrosh by leaps and bounds but also has the loyalty of the majority of its members.

The Alliance defeated Garrosh but Garrosh was leader of just the Orcs, not the HORDE by the end.

The Worgen, of course, are the Alliance's Ace in the Hole regarding the Forsaken because an entire nation of ****ed off werewolves with an ax-to-grind against the Forsaken seems like it would be the worst nightmare for them. The atrocities wrought by Sylavanas and the Forsaken would be perfect fuel to get them to slaughter them all, no matter how many of them were former countrymen. However, A LOT more Forsaken exist now than there was before.

It's possible the Worgen advantage might be cancelled out by that.

However, there's also the fact that the Alliance doesn't JUST have to beat the Forsaken in Lordaeron, which is something they might be able to accomplish with the Worgen as an ally (after all, they can't be reanimated as undead and thus the Forsaken are deprived of their primary advantage). The problem is that they also have to defeat the Scourge. Even if the Alliance could go "all in" and fight the Forsaken then they have to deal with the Scourge that might take advantage of the situation.

There's also the fact that, as you mentioned, Sylvanas would go down kicking and screaming. It presents a "WMD" style scenario for the Alliance as while they could defeat the Forsaken, they'd have to do so in a genocidal manner and the Forsaken have access to more genocidal weapons than the Alliance.

Jaina Proudmoore is capable of ending the Horde in one day but that requires her to be in genocide mode.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:33 AM
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You know what I'd love to see as a great way to move the story forward?

The Horde has to give up some of its claims in Lordaeron, at least those made during Cataclysm as war reparations.

But not war reparations to the Alliance.

War reparations to the Pandaren. Wouldn't that be interesting? Have the Pandaren build colonies in Gilneas and Hillsbrad?
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:38 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
You know what I'd love to see as a great way to move the story forward?

The Horde has to give up some of its claims in Lordaeron, at least those made during Cataclysm as war reparations.

But not war reparations to the Alliance.

War reparations to the Pandaren. Wouldn't that be interesting? Have the Pandaren build colonies in Gilneas and Hillsbrad?
Panderan colonies would be awesome. Especially if they are condescending and both sides too weak to throw them back.

*paw smack*

"BOW BEFORE HEAVEN, TALKING APE!"

For me, the best solution to the whole Lordaeron situation would be to divide the land up between the living and the dead. This, of course, has been a historically HORRIBLE idea in many lands but if the Living Do Not Want To Live With the DeadTM then I don't see much of a recourse.

There could be New Lordaeron in where the Argent Crusade has set up shop and it could be Alliance territory or a neutral nation while Undercity and its surrounding territories could be Horde. The two could sign a mutual defense pact against the Scourge.

Of course, the Forsaken NEED peace to keep going because if they don't turn humans into undead then their numbers will shrink. They don't need MANY humans to voluntarily join them, though, since they're immortal.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:41 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
You know what I'd love to see as a great way to move the story forward?

The Horde has to give up some of its claims in Lordaeron, at least those made during Cataclysm as war reparations.

But not war reparations to the Alliance.

War reparations to the Pandaren. Wouldn't that be interesting? Have the Pandaren build colonies in Gilneas and Hillsbrad?
Gilneas? What?
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:43 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Gilneas? What?
It should be a Tauren, Worgen, Panderan city with some bunny people too.

Petting Zoos consisting of human children should exist.

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