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  #27601  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:17 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
It's also perfectly reasonable for someone to come to the exact opposite conclusion and support the EU despite it's flaws.
Of course.
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  #27602  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:28 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
A very aggressive an very effective propaganda campaign from Russia.
Don't the people falling prey realize such a situation would play right into Russia's cards? I can understand those who want to play into their cards knowingly and willingly, feeling that the US is just a shallow denerate bubble that's going to pop one day and that a conservative continental alliance is far more preferable that anything concerning the Atlantics, but I can't grasp those who preach against Russia on the one hand, yet would like Europe ruled by movements and sentiments that are usually as much anti-NATO as anti-EU on the other.

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
That and I guess nationalists want other nationalists to succeed.
Only if they have similar goals. If not, they will readily butcher each other. Just look at the 1930s Italy and Germany, from hated foes to the Axis. But I don't think that's the case here.

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The US would never allow itself to be in something like the EU.
Tell that to those Americans who were strongly proposed to any sort of federation during the early 1800s.
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  #27603  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:31 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Don't the people falling prey realize such a situation would play right into Russia's cards? I can understand those who want to play into their cards knowingly and willingly, feeling that the US is just a shallow denerate bubble that's going to pop one day and that a conservative continental alliance is far more preferable that anything concerning the Atlantics, but I can't grasp those who preach against Russia on the one hand, yet would like Europe ruled by movements and sentiments that are usually as much anti-NATO as anti-EU on the other.
They also very quickly became very pro-Russia.

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Only if they have similar goals. If not, they will readily butcher each other. Just look at the 1930s Italy and Germany, from hated foes to the Axis. But I don't think that's the case here.
I think it might be a "kindred spirits" kind of thing. We had a surprisingly popular Nazi party over here back in the 30's, too, you know.
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  #27604  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:38 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I hate you people.
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  #27605  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:50 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I think it might be a "kindred spirits" kind of thing. We had a surprisingly popular Nazi party over here back in the 30's, too, you know.
Sure, but I'd say that to become kindred spirits, you not only need a similar ideology, you also need similar goals. Say, there was this Czech fascist party during the 30s. Guess what, they were strongly opposed to the Reich, enough that there had to be another pro-German party set up once the situation demanded it. Why? They might have shared ideological background, but practical reasons made them antagonists.
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  #27606  
Old 05-09-2017, 08:03 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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AS a general rule extremes are bad but moderation isn't so bad.
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  #27607  
Old 05-09-2017, 09:04 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Russia is just trying to exploit divisions that are already there.
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  #27608  
Old 05-10-2017, 03:03 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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AS a general rule extremes are bad but moderation isn't so bad.
Hence, despite not being fond of the Union's current structure and policies, I am not abolitionist but reformist.
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  #27609  
Old 05-10-2017, 05:06 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Russia is just trying to exploit divisions that are already there.
Everyone is always exploiting weaknesses and divisions. What's somewhat scary and vexing is how successfully the Russkies have been doing it these past few years. After the refugee crisis and the political fallout that followed, as well as the invasion of Crimea just a year prior, people have been playing straight into Putin's hands.
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  #27610  
Old 05-10-2017, 08:33 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Hence, despite not being fond of the Union's current structure and policies, I am not abolitionist but reformist.
I think you need to destroy the EU. Not that a union of European states isn't good. It's the EU that isn't. One of the founders of the EU had this to say about Europe, that being Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi.
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The man of the future will be of mixed race. Today's races and classes will gradually disappear owing to the vanishing of space, time, and prejudice. The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.
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  #27611  
Old 05-10-2017, 08:46 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
I think you need to destroy the EU. Not that a union of European states isn't good. It's the EU that isn't. One of the founders of the EU had this to say about Europe, that being Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi.
The Union is just a structure. It's all about people, you need to replace those, yet to do that, you don't need to tear down everything. You don't need to demolish whole house for new furniture and facade.
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  #27612  
Old 05-10-2017, 08:52 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
One of the founders of the EU had this to say about Europe, that being Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi.
I don't get it. Why did you post that quote?
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  #27613  
Old 05-10-2017, 09:33 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Everyone is always exploiting weaknesses and divisions. What's somewhat scary and vexing is how successfully the Russkies have been doing it these past few years. After the refugee crisis and the political fallout that followed, as well as the invasion of Crimea just a year prior, people have been playing straight into Putin's hands.
If Putin can make you hate the people on the side of the people he 'helped' it does his work for him too.
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  #27614  
Old 05-10-2017, 09:40 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Very relevant.
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  #27615  
Old 05-10-2017, 09:54 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Immigration is usually really political. The politicians want to bring in people who will vote for the policies they support. There are a lot better ways to help the refuges that aren't being taken like assisting the majority of the victims that are still in Iraq or Syria or the ones that fled to neighboring Arab countries.
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  #27616  
Old 05-10-2017, 09:57 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
The Union is just a structure. It's all about people, you need to replace those, yet to do that, you don't need to tear down everything. You don't need to demolish whole house for new furniture and facade.
It would be like going from the Articles of Confederation to the US Constitution.

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I don't get it. Why did you post that quote?
He clearly hated Europeans. You can't have a state that is supposed to serve a people that it hates.
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  #27617  
Old 05-10-2017, 09:59 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Not that I'm offended, but that's probably more fitting for the shitpost thread.
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  #27618  
Old 05-10-2017, 10:03 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
He clearly hated Europeans. You can't have a state that is supposed to serve a people that it hates.
I don't see how you get that from that quote. It looks more like you're making an argument against miscegenation.
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  #27619  
Old 05-10-2017, 10:37 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
It would be like going from the Articles of Confederation to the US Constitution.
And? We have seen worse historically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
He clearly hated Europeans. You can't have a state that is supposed to serve a people that it hates.
Administrations, policies, outlooks, strategies, these all change gradually despite what some of the founders held dear.
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  #27620  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:06 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I don't see how you get that from that quote. It looks more like you're making an argument against miscegenation.
His goal was clearly stated.

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will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.
Destroy the diverse peoples of Europe (and Africa and Asia). There is no other way to frame such an idea.


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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
And? We have seen worse historically.


Administrations, policies, outlooks, strategies, these all change gradually despite what some of the founders held dear.
Europe has been in better positions historically. Besides, the EU doesn't foster reform.
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  #27621  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:10 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
His goal was clearly stated.
Destroy the diverse peoples of Europe (and Africa and Asia). There is no other way to frame such an idea
He's only talking about race, though.
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  #27622  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:16 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
It looks more like you're making an argument against miscegenation.
Oh you mean like Black Supremacists (hell, even so called "Moderates") have been doing for fucking decades yet your kind seem to ignore?

Really makes you think.
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  #27623  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:20 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
He's only talking about race, though.
And? You can't have Western Civilization without whites.
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  #27624  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:21 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Europe has been in better positions historically. Besides, the EU doesn't foster reform.
I don't see how that does have to do with the argument at hand. Because Europe has seen better, the Union can't be reformed? Uhm. And there were many administrations/regimes that didn't forster reform, yet had been ultimately reformed.

In any case, I simply stated I am reformist myself, not that you have to follow my lead. If you think the Union has to die, alright, it's your decision after all.
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  #27625  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:25 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Brazil today:


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUSKBN1852AF

A common point amongst Lula's defenders are that his Prosecutor (Moro) is also the Judge of the process.

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