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Old 01-10-2017, 11:22 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Night Elf Icon (War3) The Nightfallen and Nightborne Thread

"I would rather die a nightborne than live a single day as a Legion slave."

"Behold this motley throng in which the rebels put their faith. Kaldorei, you disgrace a glorious past, hiding in trees and cloaking yourselves in false piety. You have grown as savage as the trolls that skulk about your forests. Quel'dorei, you are peasants playing at nobility, all too willing to mingle with lesser races that dilute your bloodline. You are unworthy of the name High Elves. Sin'dorei, of all the elves I thought you might understand the choice I made to save my people. Instead you ally with misfits and monsters. Each of you has debased your proud lineage. Each of you has forgotten the ancient power that is our birthright. Let this failed rebellion be a lesson to any that would stand against the Shal'dorei."



Let's begin with a few questions:

Lorewise, is Suramar currently under constant attack of outsiders, as we see in game?

And those leyline feeds, what were they originally? Tied to the Well of Eternity or tied to the Temple of Elune?
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:49 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Lorewise, is Suramar currently under constant attack of outsiders, as we see in game?

And those leyline feeds, what were they originally? Tied to the Well of Eternity or tied to the Temple of Elune?
For the first question, I think it depends a lot on what part of of questchain you're at. I believe that imagining only you and a few other players are present is lore-correct - of course, remembering that the armies are actually much larger.

As for the leyline feeds, I believe they exist simply because Suramar rests above a particularly rich nexus of leylines, while also benefitting from being one of the most developed and advanced cities in the Empire. Thus, leyline feeds. I wouldn't be surprised if Zin-Azshari also had them.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:09 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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There are structures and tunnels built around these feeds. They served a purpose.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:50 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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There are structures and tunnels built around these feeds. They served a purpose.
Powering Suramar.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:37 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Powering Suramar.
Seems odd to not have a connection to the Temple of Elune.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:22 PM
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So is Maeiv romping around the ruins of Suramar and talking about the library in TfT retconned now? Surely she would've noticed the big purple dome?
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:31 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Not necessarily. Those places probably were retconed into having been in Thal'Dranath and got wrecked by the Legion turning it into the Broken Shore. The place Maiev and the Wardens retreated to defend from Illidan was probably retconned into the Vault too
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:48 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Based on Thalyssra's and Valtrois' reaction to finding them, the Nightborne don't seem to really know very much about the leyline feeds, and I suspect they'd be a lot more informed of their presence and purpose if they were part of modern or even pre-Sundering Suramar's infrastructure (since Thalyssra in particular was alive back then.) So, I'm thinking they predate the age of the Highborne; perhaps they're a creation of earlier kaldorei mages from back when the arcan'dor were first made or even older, especially given how the arcan'dor seems to sync pretty specifically with the feeds' arrangement and their shared hub.

So, we've got all these leyline feeds situated under Suramar - specifically under Suramar. Moreover, we've got Shal'aran serving as a hub for them. In effect, they seem designed to create artificial leyline junctures. And as we've seen in the past, leyline junctures are powerful sites where anything from cities full of mages, to Arcane Sanctums, to certain towers inhabited by the Guardian, to Sunwells and numerous other sites of magical importance can benefit from being positioned at such intersections.

Moreover, we also know from Karabor and the Throne of the Elements that capitalizing on leyline junctures isn't exclusively beneficial to users of the arcane. Even a holy site or a naturally occurring concentration of elemental energies seem to derive some benefit from it as well.

Gonna delve a bit into crazy theory territory here...

While we don't see any clearly definitive purpose to Shal'aran beyond its role as a focus for the leyline feeds, we do see a multi-purpose role to its twin location farther west. Players first find the dormant arcan'dor within the Temple of Fal'adora amidst the ruins of Falanaar and atop the Shattered Locus - which by all appearances seems to be a leyline hub akin to that of Shal'aran, albeit a thoroughly demolished one. Moreover, like the Shattered Locus, Shal'aran itself is surrounded by other ruins while also possessing broken structures - the ruins of Elune'eth, a rather temple-ish sounding name - atop its cave, possibly suggesting a once-similar arrangement of a temple to Elune situated atop a leyline juncture in the midst of a night elf settlement. And not only leyline junctures; leyline junctures deliberately created by the night elves upon those specific locations.

Well, what to moonwells do when situated so? They purify the Well of Eternity's arcane waters, that's what. They take the arcane energies and balance them, making them safe and non-addictive for consumption. And that's an offshoot from Nordrassil doing the same, preventing the corruption that caused the Well of Eternity's waters to turn chaotic and dark.

Consider then, what if the ancient night elves - the really ancient ones way back before the Highborne, let alone the Nightborne, were ever a thing - used the leyline feeds to direct arcane energy from beneath Suramar into their temples and purify the magic? What if there's something under the Broken Isles that makes its native magic dangerous for direct consumption without being put through a "filter?"

And in light of that hypothesis, what might become of a city full of people who are imbibing the pure stuff drawn straight from the source, without any such filter to purify it?

It's called the Nightwell, after all. And the Nightborne sure don't seem to have much of a use for Elune any more. Perhaps it's hardly a wonder the stuff they're drinking from that Well changed them the way it did.

Consider this. The pale orcs were shamans who had the favor and power of the elements stripped away from them, leaving them, empty, slavering, cannibalistic husks desperate for even a scrap of something, anything they can devour. The same happens to the Withered as they're rendered down to desiccated borderline cadavers who mindlessly hunger for flesh and magic to consume.

I'm thinking maybe - just maybe - there's something of the Void under the Broken Isles, and that something makes the very land's magic hazardous to consume without something to cleanse the corruption. That maybe the ancient night elves knew this from their dealings with the Keepers and the Pillars, and took measures to protect themselves. Yet here we've had the entire Nightborne populace blissfully mainlining that stuff for the past ten thousand years without so much as a prayer offered up to protect them from its deleterious effects.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:01 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Dindus who knowingly allied with the Legion (and actually knew who the Legion was when they did so) out of a sense of self-preservation rather than take the more honorable route of self-sacrifice and fight them to the last man, woman, and child.

In other words, they're trash.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:17 AM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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Dindus who knowingly allied with the Legion (and actually knew who the Legion was when they did so) out of a sense of self-preservation rather than take the more honorable route of self-sacrifice and fight them to the last man, woman, and child.

In other words, they're trash.
Elf Lives Matter is a domestic terrorist group funded by secret shadow council money.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:20 AM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Based on Thalyssra's and Valtrois' reaction to finding them, the Nightborne don't seem to really know very much about the leyline feeds, and I suspect they'd be a lot more informed of their presence and purpose if they were part of modern or even pre-Sundering Suramar's infrastructure (since Thalyssra in particular was alive back then.)
They both knew exactly what they were. From the first leyline quest:


Thalyssra: The arcways were built to tap into the magical leylines beneath Suramar. As we learned to subsist on the Nightwell, the old facilities fell out of use.

This chamber is clearly receiving power from elsewhere.

There is only a trickle now, but if you can direct more leyline energy here it will help to sustain us.

The closest source is to the north, near Anora Hollow.


Valtrois: <Sigh.> Very well. I am Valtrois.

Out here, so far from the Nightwell, we must settle for any source of magic we can find.

It seems Thalyssra and I had the same idea - the old leyline feeds might keep us alive, if barely.

We just have to wake them up.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:23 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I would buy your idea but...

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Well, what to moonwells do when situated so? They purify the Well of Eternity's arcane waters, that's what. They take the arcane energies and balance them, making them safe and non-addictive for consumption. And that's an offshoot from Nordrassil doing the same, preventing the corruption that caused the Well of Eternity's waters to turn chaotic and dark.

Consider then, what if the ancient night elves - the really ancient ones way back before the Highborne, let alone the Nightborne, were ever a thing - used the leyline feeds to direct arcane energy from beneath Suramar into their temples and purify the magic? What if there's something under the Broken Isles that makes its native magic dangerous for direct consumption without being put through a "filter?"

These two bolded points stopped me on my tracks.

It seems to me that it wouldn't require something to be specifically under Suramar to make native magic specially dangerous... Instead, it seems to me that titan blood, in it's essence, is specially dangerous for direct consumption without being purified.

Or... maybe Titans are connected to the Void through the arcane or something akin to that.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:05 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Dindus who knowingly allied with the Legion (and actually knew who the Legion was when they did so) out of a sense of self-preservation rather than take the more honorable route of self-sacrifice and fight them to the last man, woman, and child.
Do you remember the time the orcs had to do the same because the elves were wiping their asses with them?

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Old 01-11-2017, 11:45 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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They both knew exactly what they were.
I wouldn't say that. They're just very adept at making the right deductions. Other well educated magicians could probably tell you the same.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Based on Thalyssra's and Valtrois' reaction to finding them, the Nightborne don't seem to really know very much about the leyline feeds, and I suspect they'd be a lot more informed of their presence and purpose if they were part of modern or even pre-Sundering Suramar's infrastructure (since Thalyssra in particular was alive back then.)
That isn't the vibe I got. I think they all just forgot about them. With the Nightwell, they didn't have to care about lesser ley feeds.

As to why the arcan'dor was set up like it was... maybe.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:46 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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I wouldn't say that. They're just very adept at making the right deductions. Other well educated magicians could probably tell you the same.
Thalyssra is pretty clear in the quest text I posted:

"The arcways were built to tap into the magical leylines beneath Suramar. As we learned to subsist on the Nightwell, the old facilities fell out of use."

I honestly don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than a statement of fact.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:50 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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The story makes it super obvious that Thalyssra or Valtrois will betray us.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:14 PM
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To respond to ARM, I suspect just as you do that the Nightwell is tainted by the Void itself through N'zoth. The Nightbourne is literally being turned into Void creatures by drinking the Void corrupted blood of a Titan. When the Nightwell breaks apart, I consider it an inevitable end to this expansion, N'zoth will most likely free himself and become the main focus of the next expansion. Any Nightbourne that hasn't been purified by the Arcan'dor will become fallen or turned into his servants. The Felbourne will avoid this fate thanks to the Fel.
N'zoth is the Great Corruptor. He made the Curse of Flesh, he turned the Highbourne into Naga and he most likely turned the Nightbourne into their current form.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:33 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I don't mean they didn't know the leyline feeds themselves existed. I mean that while they knew what they used to do with them, they seemed to be in the dark as to the purpose of hubs like Shal'aran, despite those feeds all being arranged in such a manner as to channel energy directly to them. While the Nightfallen found ways to utilize it toward their own purposes, they never definitively figured out why Shal'aran existed in the first place. And remember, at the very least Thalyssra was alive before the raising of the barrier and the creation of the Nightwell. As a Highborne of Suramar she'd have had firsthand knowledge of how they were using the local leylines, yet the involvement of Shal'aran seemed to be something completely outside of her experience.

Thalyssra even says she's never seen anything like Shal'aran while first exploring it. With its collection of teleportation platforms and map of leyline feeds, she's perplexed by what purpose the resulting concentration of power in such a place could possibly have served.

However, upon further research, the dead tree that crumbles away after players defeat Keeper Selentia suggests that it was possibly used to power an arcan'dor, and we know the arcan'dor were given to the kaldorei by ancient pre-druid "keepers" early in the night elves' explorations of arcane magic, before the Highborne rose to power over their society.

Moreover, the arcan'dor seems to need a constant feed of power from all of the tapped leylines to thrive, meaning it's possible that the original purpose of the leyline network was specifically to channel energy into places like Shal'aran and Falanaar in order to empower multiple arcan'dors so the night elves could imbibe magic without the drawbacks of addiction and withdrawal.

Also there are the teleportation pads; their current destinations were connected by Oculeth, but the transference of the Waning Crescent's portal to Evermon Terrace from the same pad shows that they aren't "locked in," so one might speculate that perhaps they originally connected to other locations akin to Shal'aran, with the intent of allowing many arcan'dors to be established throughout the land with a network of portals between allowing the keepers and mages to maintain them.

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N'zoth is the Great Corruptor. He made the Curse of Flesh, he turned the Highbourne into Naga and he most likely turned the Nightbourne into their current form.
Actually per Chronicle the Curse of Flesh is specifically Yogg-Saron's thing. He's the one who first introduced it to most of the titan-forged from Ulduar by infecting the Forge of Wills, and it spread to other titan-forged all over Azeroth from there, particularly when Loken sent an army south to find out what had happened to Highkeeper Ra, inadvertently (on Loken's part, not Yogg-Saron's) spreading the Curse to the tol'vir, anubisaths and mogu.

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Old 01-12-2017, 12:55 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Actually per Chronicle the Curse of Flesh is specifically Yogg-Saron's thing. He's the one who first introduced it to most of the titan-forged from Ulduar by infecting the Forge of Wills, and it spread to other titan-forged all over Azeroth from there, particularly when Loken sent an army south to find out what had happened to Highkeeper Ra, inadvertently (on Loken's part, not Yogg-Saron's) spreading the Curse to the tol'vir, anubisaths and mogu.
But that is being contradicted by Il'gynoth wo claims that his master made them all. His master is N'zoth. Yoggy being the creator of the Curse never sat well with me. It didn't feel much like his cup of tea. N'zoth on the other hand revels in such things.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:47 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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But that is being contradicted by Il'gynoth wo claims that his master made them all. His master is N'zoth. Yoggy being the creator of the Curse never sat well with me. It didn't feel much like his cup of tea. N'zoth on the other hand revels in such things.
Chronicles-established fact is more relevant than the interpretation of what an Old God spawn stated.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:18 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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But that is being contradicted by Il'gynoth wo claims that his master made them all. His master is N'zoth. Yoggy being the creator of the Curse never sat well with me. It didn't feel much like his cup of tea. N'zoth on the other hand revels in such things.
Your consent is hardly necessary; the official lore is that Yogg-saron created the Curse of Flesh and the Nightmare. He was the only Old God active until C'thun was awoken to wage the War of the Shifting Sands 1,000 years ago.

We know approximately nothing about N'zoth besides that he's possibly imprisoned underwater (God of the Deep and all that), was indirectly involved in the Cataclysm, and was the weakest of the Old Gods.

Key word: was. I have a feeling killing each Old God just allowed the survivors to assimilate it and at this point N'zoth is, in effect, also C'thun and Yogg-saron and so a great deal more powerful than any of them alone. Which could be why he now commands the Nightmare and was able to rouse minions and tendrils of other Old Gods in parts of the world outside his own geographical sphere of influence.

I think by killing Yogg-saron and C'thun we may have effectively given everything they had to N'zoth. Their power, their servants, their creations and - theoretically - even their minds. Xal'atath's awareness endures despite implications that it was devoured by the others, so perhaps even now N'zoth is host to the amalgamated awareness of himself and his fellow Old Gods, all still distinct while at the same time combined into a single being.

(And in that vein, who's to say Xal'atath's mind isn't in some way still a part of it as well? It speaks of Deathwing's corruption as if it was involved. "He was the strongest of them, and yet the easiest one for us to corrupt." Yet based on any one [or all together, depending how one interprets them] of its purported origins, chronologically it would have to have been reduced to a dagger long before Neltharion even existed. So maybe from their position, none of the Old Gods are dead. Maybe they're all still part of the collective mind of the Old Gods. Maybe the fluctuating number of Old Gods is less retcon or error, and more a matter of perspective. Maybe there were indeed five of them plotting their collective escape during the War of the Ancients, even if only three were still technically physically intact.)

"Only one would remain to consume the world, that was always meant to be." But does that mean only one, all by itself? Or perhaps many joined into one, their essences assimilated and distributed among them all each time another got killed, until at long last they've become a single entity comprised of them all.
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:09 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Thalyssra is pretty clear in the quest text I posted:

"The arcways were built to tap into the magical leylines beneath Suramar. As we learned to subsist on the Nightwell, the old facilities fell out of use."

I honestly don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than a statement of fact.
Yeah, but that was after discovering Shal'aran and havingg time to familiarise herself with it. At least, she didn't know about the original use of the arcways before meeting our characters and discovering Shal'aran. She only finds out thanks to our characters' involvement.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:13 AM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Yeah, but that was after discovering Shal'aran and havingg time to familiarise herself with it. At least, she didn't know about the original use of the arcways before meeting our characters and discovering Shal'aran. She only finds out thanks to our characters' involvement.
If you're talking about Shal'aran specifically, then I agree with you. But if you mean the leyline feeds themselves, again, I have to point out that the first thing she says about them is their history and how they're used. She couldn't have known their history if she didn't already know about them. Same thing with Valtrois. We find her at the arcway up north because she remembered it from before the Sundering and thought it could be used as a replacement for the Nightwell.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:49 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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We know approximately nothing about N'zoth besides that he's possibly imprisoned underwater (God of the Deep and all that), was indirectly involved in the Cataclysm, and was the weakest of the Old Gods.
It has been implied that N'Zoth was responsible for the Naga, 10k years ago.

And Deathwing, too, although I think all of them had a hand in that.

As for consequencea of death, it is my theory and headcanon that the Elemental Unrest part of the Cataclysm was caused by Yogg-Saron's death, which then facilitated N'Zoth's ushering of Deathwing in what became the Shattering.

The Cataclysm would this be the whole event - Unrest + Shattering.
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