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  #7601  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:25 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
I'm dreading that the Hand of Valor is Tyr, who after having die became a god in the Shadowlands.
I’ll admit, I thought of Tyr as well, with obviously less dread. Still, it would be weird to have him backing Vol’jin. That said, I think Vol’jin’s backer is on a higher pay grade. Still crossing my fingers for An’she.
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  #7602  
Old 01-13-2019, 08:43 PM
Darkphoenix Darkphoenix is offline

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According to Chronicles, Void and Shadow are the same thing. However, judging via the other media in the franchise, they practically and conceptually aren’t.

What’s going on?

For example, Alleria obviously uses the Void; Sylvanas obviously uses the Shadow. Besides the fact that both forces are depicted differently, if the two were the same, wouldn’t Sylvanas hear whispers, too? And, if the two are the same, why would the Void fear her?

I guess my question is this: how are they the same thing when we have a lot that points to them not being so?

My current thoughts on the matter are this: the Void is more powerful than Shadow, but the cost for such is whispers and the chance at a loss of control, whereas the Shadow may be weaker then straight Void, but there’s no toll to pay.

Thoughts?
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  #7603  
Old 01-13-2019, 09:10 PM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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I think the Void is a source of magic or power and Shadow is a effect. Just as Fire can be created by arcane magic, elemental magic or fel magic, Shadow can be be created by numerous sources (death magic, fel magic or void magic to name a few).
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  #7604  
Old 01-13-2019, 09:53 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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While hardly canon, I tend to feel like Void is most often used in reference to the darkness "beyond" normal existence, from whence the Void Lords, Old Gods and other things come that don't really belong in the physical universe. I.e. the Void as a "place" and the power associated with it.

Whereas Shadow strikes me more as reference to the inherent darkness that exists as part of everything in physical reality, in tandem with Light. I.e. the "native," ambient Void that's a balanced and necessary part of existence.

In that sense while darkness in the Void would be absolute for lack of anything else, darkness that's part of physical reality would be Shadow because it exists being shaped and contrasted by Light.

So while void elves are exposed to the whispers and other hazards of the dark denizens of the Void when they delve into their power, when a warlock or shadowmage or necromancer tosses a shadowbolt, they're basically using their own power (fel, arcane or necromancy) to shape and project the natural darkness that exists around them.

Kinda like how mages can use the elements; the elements basically exist in a fundamental sense everywhere in physical reality, so the arcane power sort of grabs onto those omnipresent elemental forces suffusing the mages' surroundings and shapes them into firebolts, frost novas, etc.

But that's just my theory. I suspect the Devs may not have any such specific connotations in mind; it's probably just two similar terms they can use interchangeably to reference the same thing without it sounding quite as repetitive.
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  #7605  
Old 02-17-2019, 02:36 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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This has been on my mind for the last minute. ()

Would the Forsaken and Worgen have benefited from sharing starting zones? Both starting in Gilneas, one civilisation on the defence and the other on the offence, with both moving into Silverpine Forest once the initial invading force gets repelled? Of course, the experience would have to be instanced in order to avoid new players getting killed in their safe-zone, but it would allow for a far more organic flow to the story. Without the worgen being deprived of experiencing half of what might just be one of the most significant events (that happened to them) in recent history.

What do you think?

Is this something you would like to see with future races or allied races? Perhaps a shared recruitment scenario with both sides facing off?
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  #7606  
Old 02-17-2019, 06:36 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I do think the Worgen should have seen Silverpine questing. It remains one of the most engaging questing zones in the game. Worgen and Forsaken really go hard at one another with a lot of turns and upsets in the struggle. Though perhaps the worgen side is more fun since they actually have to be clever and the Forsaken brute force their way through things because the PC is a Mary Sue. Buuut even that is not glaring since a lot of those quests end up with you being thwarted, culminating in the Fall of Saigon-like collapse of the Gilnean front, after all those flubs it does feel great when the PC smashes through the enemy at last.

Besides the worgen players being able to see this, and based on the way the zone story is designed as well as early Cata plans they were supposed to, it helps with a greater story narrative. It would involve the Alliance having a presence in all Lordaeron zones to an extent, and their goal is nothing short of taking back their home now that the Lich King menace is over. Ofc the Forsaken disagree on whose home it is and inevitably conflict ensues across all of the zones.

Obviously the issue was zone balance. Which looking back on it now wasn't that much of an issue. Even if Alliance was allowed to quest there it would take nothing away from the Horde, some pride perhaps. Though obviously it would be best if Blizz did the difficult but correct choice of just adding more Horde zones too, I think working undercover to cause rebellion in Westfall, messing things up in Darkshire and from there going either to Stranglethorn or the east coast where the Horde would have a more over presence in Swamp of Sorrows, Redridge, Searing Gorge and that other fiery place, this also gives a better Horde link to the Blasted Lands.
This setup allows for two lore developments too, a closer integration with Blackrock orcs now that they are out of the influence of Rend and the black dragons and a greater Alliance investment into Lordaeron which could lead to them starting the BfA war which would have worked out much better than "oh we are gonna tease that the start of the war is ambigious but actually it is 100% Sylvanas being evil as everyone thought, kek."
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  #7607  
Old 02-11-2020, 10:42 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Question

So you mean to tell me right when I was writing my dissertation, Blizzard just so happened to release a cutscene teasing Thrall x Jaina, and then announce that Kael will return as a ghost? Did they receive some sort of desperation signals from yours truly through the noosphere?
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  #7608  
Old 02-11-2020, 04:53 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
So you mean to tell me right when I was writing my dissertation, Blizzard just so happened to release a cutscene teasing Thrall x Jaina, and then announce that Kael will return as a ghost? Did they receive some sort of desperation signals from yours truly through the noosphere?
Do not fall for the hype I do not think our favorite fic is coming true, and knowing modern Blizz bringing back Kael is just another chance to drag him through the mud. Think of Grom. Though I am somewhat anxiously wondering how they will find new ways to crap on Kael after the last time, but Blizz is a magician when it comes to new ways to disappoint so
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  #7609  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:41 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Shadowlands are maybe even worse than TBC in terms of turning the metaphysical basis and mythology of the setting on its head, so.
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  #7610  
Old 02-12-2020, 08:44 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Orb of Venom

Hasn't this already been done with Chronicle? Turning Arcane from this weird dangerous "fire that you mortals do not understand" (thx Archimonde) into a universally good force associated with the Titans was already a punch in the gut. At least my idea of "fel kills demons for real" has proven to be more or less correct, but now Fel is the anitthesis to Arcane, wtf?

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I do not think our favorite fic is coming true
Remind me which fic, please?

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  #7611  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:58 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Remind me which fic, please?
Forgot the name, you know the one that ships Thrall and Jaina and remembers Ner'zul and Arthas were supposed to merge

Just a fancy way of saying that I don't think Thrall x Jaina is ever happening.
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  #7612  
Old 02-13-2020, 06:27 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Hasn't this already been done with Chronicle? Turning Arcane from this weird dangerous "fire that you mortals do not understand" (thx Archimonde) into a universally good force associated with the Titans was already a punch in the gut. At least my idea of "fel kills demons for real" has proven to be more or less correct, but now Fel is the anitthesis to Arcane, wtf?
Chronicle never really did that, it still described arcane as innately volative, requiring intense precision and concetration to wield it. Plus, arcane as the language of Order predates Chronicle by a long bit. It's just that Chronicle clarified a mess existing since Warcraft III (even Warcraft III's manual differentiated between the arcane magic of the Kirin Tor and warlock magics of the Eredar), it just clarified it in a very boring and mechanical way.

Nonetheless, even if it was exactly as you say, I'd say it pales in comparison to the changes TBC and Shadowlands wrought upon the setting.
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  #7613  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:10 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
arcane as the language of Order predates Chronicle by a long bit.
Where from?
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  #7614  
Old 02-14-2020, 05:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Where from?
Explicitly, Kosak's tweets. Implicitly, since Warcraft III/the RPG books, as these said that arcane/Well of Eternity were the titans' gift to Azeroth, that they used these energies when ordering the universe, and that these energies gave rise to life on Azeroth (some of these were later retconned only to be made canon again, but that's just Blizzard).
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  #7615  
Old 02-16-2020, 10:37 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Explicitly, Kosak's tweets. Implicitly, since Warcraft III/the RPG books, as these said that arcane/Well of Eternity were the titans' gift to Azeroth, that they used these energies when ordering the universe, and that these energies gave rise to life on Azeroth (some of these were later retconned only to be made canon again, but that's just Blizzard).
1. Bah, Tweets.

2. The implicit stuff is subject to interpretation.
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  #7616  
Old 02-17-2020, 01:53 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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In relation to the bandits in the first human mission "Blackrock and Roll" being retconned into being members of the Syndicate, there's a weird rune named "Perenolde's End".

Probably a bug but I wonder if it was a remnant of a plan of adding Aiden Perenolde back the same way Anasterian Sunstrider was added.
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  #7617  
Old 02-17-2020, 02:24 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Darkmoon Card: Twisting Nether

I thought to grumble a bit about Ner'zhul's crown suddenly being a lock upon some giant portal into the Shadowlands, but the more I thought about it, him HAVING the powers to connect with this "necromantic cenergy" on a global scale is actually something necessary for the plot of Warcraft III to work. The whole idea of Acolytes "SUMMONING" buildings: even if that's just a fancy way of turning resources into constructs via the will of Ner'zhul, the whole otherworldly energy bit can't be ignored.
As Arthas said: "No simple cult could have built this."
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  #7618  
Old 02-17-2020, 02:52 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Bah, Tweets.

2. The implicit stuff is subject to interpretation.
Tweets are still an official source.

And while "language of order" is itself an interpretation before those tweets, arcane magic as life nourishing and a gift of the titans to the world was outright explicit. And that's the bottom line, the entire magic system had been for almost the entirety of Warcraft's existence, with various sources contradicting each other, at one point, even shamanism was described as arcane magic.
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  #7619  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:06 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
I thought to grumble a bit about Ner'zhul's crown suddenly being a lock upon some giant portal into the Shadowlands, but the more I thought about it, him HAVING the powers to connect with this "necromantic cenergy" on a global scale is actually something necessary for the plot of Warcraft III to work. The whole idea of Acolytes "SUMMONING" buildings: even if that's just a fancy way of turning resources into constructs via the will of Ner'zhul, the whole otherworldly energy bit can't be ignored.
As Arthas said: "No simple cult could have built this."
Didn't WCIII have them summon from the Nether though?
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  #7620  
Old 02-18-2020, 07:12 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Tweets are still an official source.

And while "language of order" is itself an interpretation before those tweets, arcane magic as life nourishing and a gift of the titans to the world was outright explicit. And that's the bottom line, the entire magic system had been for almost the entirety of Warcraft's existence, with various sources contradicting each other, at one point, even shamanism was described as arcane magic.
1. I don't believe that is true.

2. It can nourish life and be mutagenic without being order based.
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  #7621  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:25 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Forgot the name, you know the one that ships Thrall and Jaina and remembers Ner'zul and Arthas were supposed to merge

Just a fancy way of saying that I don't think Thrall x Jaina is ever happening.
The whole Thrall x Jaina thing is a bad fanfiction trope. It's the same as the Raynor/Kerry disaster. It's really sexist.

Jaina is the only female character of note who interacts with Thrall in any meaningful fashion, so obviously fans are going to ship them despite them lacking any relationship beyond mere acquaintances. Just because a female character exists doesn't mean she has to be paired up with the male character who she has the most dialogue with.

I hate the whole concept of shipping. It idealizes and promotes extremely unhealthy and unrealistic views of human relationships. There's no such thing as a one true love, soulmate, or whatever the trend is. Building relationships is just like any other skill: you're going to have to go through multiple relationships to understand how relationships work.
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  #7622  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:36 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Didn't the RoC manual call Arcane magic chaotic

Edit:http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/War...2520Manual.pdf

Furion explained to his brother that magic was innately chaotic and that its use would
inevitably lead to widespread corruption and strife


It did.
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  #7623  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:46 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Didn't the RoC manual call Arcane magic chaotic

Edit:http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/War...2520Manual.pdf

Furion explained to his brother that magic was innately chaotic and that its use would
inevitably lead to widespread corruption and strife


It did.
That was a retcon. Like everything else.

Prior to WC3, there was no indication that magic was an inherently corrupting force. There was a minor implication that the TYPE of magic had an effect, as the orcs' magic apparently caused the area around the dark portal to sicken and resemble Draenor. This suggested that improper use of magic had caused a climactic disaster, but the implications were never explored. In WC2, this idea of climactic disaster was apparently forgotten.

In WC3, it was explained that the ill-defined "magic" was an inherently corrupting force, but this seemed to only work whenever the plot needed it to. Azshara was corrupted, but the high elf descendants were not (unless you count magic addiction) and the night elves didn't get addicted despite their immortality being dependent on the magic of the well of eternity.

In WoW, the cosmic forces were retconned into being. Now it seems only death and chaos magic have any negative side-effects, which makes anti-magic attitudes nonsensical.

Also, the "nature magic" practiced by the shamans and druids and whoever has no negative side-effects whatsoever. Because magic.
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  #7624  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:14 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Didn't WCIII have them summon from the Nether though?
Quite possibly, I don't remember what was said in the manual ATT. But, generally, both undeath and chaos was associated with demons in WCIII era. Most prominently Mal'Ganis.
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  #7625  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:30 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Well, considering it's a place of chaotic energies that exists in tandem with and "out of phase" from everything else, theoretically any time magic causes something to teleport (or portal) between realms or locations it may involve passing through the Nether as a sort of intermediary "membrane" where time and space function differently, allowing for accelerated travel across both.

Even the Void's denizens have referenced at times as crossing over through the Twisting Nether to the physical plane, even though that's not where they actually originate. Perhaps when reality is functioning properly (i.e. nobody's breaking Helms of Domination or shattering World Pillars) the only way to bridge different planes of existence that are isolated from each other is to connect them across the Twisting Nether.
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