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  #4651  
Old 05-12-2017, 05:33 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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It's literally the definition of white privilege
Eastern European
White privilege

m8
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  #4652  
Old 05-12-2017, 05:50 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Thing is there are approximately 10.000 games that only sport white caucasian protagonists and no minority options, why is it such a huge fucking deal when a game has no white option? I don't give a crap whether it's the dev's agenda or not, or what one of the devs posts on twitter - people just need to put it in perspective and calm the hell down. It's literally the definition of white privilege, getting upset over something so ridiculous when this is exactly what minorities have been dealing with forever. The argument of "but so many people can't play what they identify with" just sounds callous and ridiculous after so many years of games without options besides white male protagonists.
Well, excluding a race from play when there's no in-universe reason to do so is an example of a racist attitude. That said, I'm not convinced that's what was at work here since it sounds like there were a lot of other problems at the studio.

But like you, I don't understand why so many gamers want to play someone who looks like them. It's even stranger to identify with a character based solely or primarily on race. One of the great thing about art is that it lets you identify with people who aren't you, so taking such an attitude is extraordinarily counterproductive.
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  #4653  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:12 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Thing is there are approximately 10.000 games that only sport white caucasian protagonists and no minority options, why is it such a huge fucking deal when a game has no white option? I don't give a crap whether it's the dev's agenda or not, or what one of the devs posts on twitter - people just need to put it in perspective and calm the hell down. It's literally the definition of white privilege, getting upset over something so ridiculous when this is exactly what minorities have been dealing with forever. The argument of "but so many people can't play what they identify with" just sounds callous and ridiculous after so many years of games without options besides white male protagonists.
Yeah, because all those game had character editors as well.

Also, good job ignoring the fact that most videogame consumers are "white male privileged shitlords".

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
Well, excluding a race from play when there's no in-universe reason to do so is an example of a racist attitude. That said, I'm not convinced that's what was at work here since it sounds like there were a lot of other problems at the studio.

But like you, I don't understand why so many gamers want to play someone who looks like them. It's even stranger to identify with a character based solely or primarily on race. One of the great thing about art is that it lets you identify with people who aren't you, so taking such an attitude is extraordinarily counterproductive.
Lot of people only like to play as themselves. I don't like it too, I always gravitate towards new things, but it's a fact that it's out there.

Why do you think all MMOs always have a majority of human-race player characters?
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  #4654  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:22 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
One of the great thing about art is that it lets you identify with people who aren't you, so taking such an attitude is extraordinarily counterproductive.
Considering how often games are used as a form of escapism, is it really that reprehensible that some players want to play an "improved" version of themselves?
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  #4655  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:40 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I blame Canada.
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  #4656  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:57 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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I blame Canada.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:08 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Eastern European
White privilege

m8
I don't think you really understand what that word means.

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Yeah, because all those game had character editors as well.

Also, good job ignoring the fact that most videogame consumers are "white male privileged shitlords".
ALL of those games? Really? If that's your attitude, any game can be edited outside of the base product by customers - that doesn't reflect what it ships with.

I really don't get your 2nd sentence. Who are you quoting? I'm not angry with white males, if that's what you're implying. I'm trying to point out the absurdity of getting upset over specific games today that don't fit the mold of the literally thousands of games that came before. If Andromeda's devs can be accused of being "racist" for not including a white caucasian option - then what can the thousands of other dev teams be accused of for not including any option but caucasian? I don't think it's really hard to grasp how absurd this claim is when you think about it, and how much of a non-issue it is.

Also, like Hlaalu I sincerely believe that incompetence led to the issues with Andromeda more than anything else. Additionally I'm also convinced that whatever a single dev likes to say on twitter (and might I add that I've browsed through it, and nearly all of it is OBVIOUS provocation of alt right trolls, and not some racist anti-white manifesto) does not reflect on a developer team as a whole or a studio and what they put in their game.



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Lot of people only like to play as themselves. I don't like it too, I always gravitate towards new things, but it's a fact that it's out there.

Why do you think all MMOs always have a majority of human-race player characters?
This is certainly true, but it does not imply that every game studio has a responsibility to provide white male protagonist options. There are plenty of examples to the contrary, whether it be games with female protagonists or of other race. I think people upset about this need to examine how they are being led around by the nose by youtubers and social media bubbles. Did people sense a "feminist anti-male conspiracy" by Eidos when Tomb Raider came out? I mean, come on. This is only being fed by the remnants of the GamerGate hysteria, these people haven't had anything to latch on to and they jumped on this perceived one to generate more hits and social media "buzz". It's pathetic.
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  #4658  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:43 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Can you take it to the SJW thread ?
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  #4659  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:48 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Considering how often games are used as a form of escapism, is it really that reprehensible that some players want to play an "improved" version of themselves?
My annoyance is more toward those who are unwilling to make the effort of identifying with someone who looks different from them in any kind of media.
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  #4660  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:58 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
ALL of those games? Really? If that's your attitude, any game can be edited outside of the base product by customers - that doesn't reflect what it ships with.

I really don't get your 2nd sentence. Who are you quoting? I'm not angry with white males, if that's what you're implying. I'm trying to point out the absurdity of getting upset over specific games today that don't fit the mold of the literally thousands of games that came before. If Andromeda's devs can be accused of being "racist" for not including a white caucasian option - then what can the thousands of other dev teams be accused of for not including any option but caucasian? I don't think it's really hard to grasp how absurd this claim is when you think about it, and how much of a non-issue it is.

Also, like Hlaalu I sincerely believe that incompetence led to the issues with Andromeda more than anything else. Additionally I'm also convinced that whatever a single dev likes to say on twitter (and might I add that I've browsed through it, and nearly all of it is OBVIOUS provocation of alt right trolls, and not some racist anti-white manifesto) does not reflect on a developer team as a whole or a studio and what they put in their game.
Do you see anyone calling Mafia 3 racist? No, because it doesn't have a character editor. You have a predefined protagonist, who is black.

Most videogame consumers are white and male. It's the demographic. Following the "some people like to play as themselves" idea, it's only obvious that catering to the majority is the best, ergo most characters will be white and male, because sales. This rule applies to the whole world, and to every market that exists out there.

The assumed "racist" problem with Andromeda is that it has a character editor, but you can't portray white people properly. Not gonna discuss how true this is, it just is, and that's enough to make an impact.

Andromeda is a bad game because it's a bad game and not because of politics, but politics turned many fans against them. Said fans would have defended the company's shitty game hadn't they been alienated in the first place. There's been worse games than Andromeda out there, that weren't been so much in the spotlight, and were able to recover, because of their fans. Insulting the fans, plus shitty game, equals to shitstorm.

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
My annoyance is more toward those who are unwilling to make the effort of identifying with someone who looks different from them in any kind of media.
This is about taste, not about tolerance.

You're pretty much asking that people to "make the effort of liking broccoli". If they don't like it, they won't like it just because you're offended.
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  #4661  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:10 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Most videogame consumers are white and male.
...This sounds unlikely to me. Strong statistical over-representation, sure, but not majority. Unless the East-Asian and Latin-American game markets are way smaller than I'm imaging.
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  #4662  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:33 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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...This sounds unlikely to me. Strong statistical over-representation, sure, but not majority. Unless the East-Asian and Latin-American game markets are way smaller than I'm imaging.
Asia has its own stuff, which most of the time they don't even bother bringing it outside their own markets. It's no secret that many "western" titles and genres don't sell well there.

The low number of games localized in Spanish should tell you enough about the Hispanic American market. Most of the time the translations are pretty bad, and there's no localized voices. Also, 99% of the time it's European Spanish. And anyway, most Hispanic Americans have European blood in them, with plenty of them being pretty white.
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  #4663  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:57 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Asia has its own stuff, which most of the time they don't even bother bringing it outside their own markets. It's no secret that many "western" titles and genres don't sell well there. The low number of games localized in Spanish should tell you enough about the Hispanic American market. Most of the time the translations are pretty bad, and there's no localized voices. Also, 99% of the time it's European Spanish.
Dang it, I did my fermi before incorporating this extra requirement. Feel free to adjust numbers.

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And anyway, most Hispanic Americans have European blood in them, with plenty of them being pretty white.
I think it's about 25% white for latin america.

Hold on, we should be able to fermi estimate this.

Calculating number of white male video gamers
Total population of Europe, Canada and North America put together: 1.1 billion.
Percentage of white people in those regions: I'm too lazy to calculate this, so let's just say it's 1/11th and make the total white pop come out to a a nice round billion. That's probably an overestimate, but it should be close enough.
Percentage of people in those four countries who buy video games: We're throwing out mobile apps, social apps and micro-payments, because otherwise there's not a chance in heck you're right anyway, and only focus on video game purchases (which is where most customizable characters are found anyway). Going purely by the people I know, there's seldom more than one video game consumer per family, unless there's children. However, old people seldom buy video games, so that partially compensates. I'm leaning towards somewhere between 1-in-3 and 1-in-4. However, I'm from a relatively rich country, so let's go for 1-in-5 instead.
Percentage of those people who are male: Going again by my own experiences, about 2/3rds are male. However, relatively progressive country, so let's instead be conservative and say 4/5ths.
Total population of latin america: 626 million people
Percentage of white people in latin america: 25%
Percentage of video game players in Latin America: I'm going to assume this is lower than the Euro-American percentage, so let's lowball it and go for 1/8th. Most will be concentrated in countries with relatively traditional gender roles, so probably 5/6ths male.
That brings us to a total of (1000000000 * 0.2 * 0.8 + 626000000 * 0.125 * 0.84) = 225 million white male game consumers in the world.

Calculating number of white non-male video gamers
Simply plug in the inverted gender percentages of the previous:
(1000000000 * 0.2 * 0.2 + 626000000 * 0.125 * 0.16) = 52 million white non-male game consumers.

Calculating number of non-white video game consumers
I'm going to assume that there's a decent video game market only in the aforementioned regions, east-asia, south-east Asia and, to a lesser extent, a few countries in the middle east. Sub-saharan africa, central asia and South asia are probably not much of a market (though I might be very wrong about south asia), so despite their populations, let's say that their total gaming populaces add up to ten million.
Okay, so, population estimates. 1.5 billion for east asia, 636 million for south-east asia, and about 200 million in the richer and more stable countries of the greater middle-east.
Gamer estimates. East asia likely has the biggest percentage of game consumers, followed by the rich middle east, followed by south-east asia. Imma do a very wild low-balling fermi and say 1-in-15, 1-in-18 and 1-in-25 respectively.
That leads to total game-consuming populaces of 100 million east-asian gamers, 10 million middle-eastern gamers, 25 million southeast-asian game consumers. Plus another 22 milion from the non-white western game consumers.

That would add up to... 167 million non-white game consumers.

That brings us to 225 million white male game consumers and 213 million non-(white male) game consumers.

So under these calculations you'd be right. However, that's a lot of estimations high-balled or low-balled to assist.

Anyone else want to plug in their numbers?
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  #4664  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:02 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The correct term for non-male is female.

You take Fe from the periodic table for iron and put it in front of male. It is kind of like being iron man.
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  #4665  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:42 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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The correct term for non-male is female.

You take Fe from the periodic table for iron and put it in front of male. It is kind of like being iron man.
I inverted my male percentages, ergo non-male. Just because that ends up roughly (or exactly, depending on definition) equaling the female percentage ain't make non-male incorrect.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:46 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Seeing how nearly half of all "gamers" are female according to every available statistic, the myth of "largely white male demo" is already outta the window. Yeah, they'll be overrepresented in games like FPS etc, but otherwise it's fairly balanced.

My argument still stands btw. Most people wouldn't give a crap about this, just like noone complained about numerous other games without a white male protagonist. The difference between now and then is that you now have a near-hysterical bubble of guys online frothing at the mouth waiting for the next target to be painted for them to accuse of "SJW agenda" and getting upset about delusions of "conspiracies" in "their games". "Keep politics out of my games" - the irony is that the only people actually bringing politics into anything are the people that actually get offended or feel threatened by such absolutely irrelevant "issues".

And since this is directly related to Andromeda, I don't see why this has to go to the SJW thread, besides everyone is being entirely civil.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:48 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I inverted my male percentages, ergo non-male. Just because that ends up roughly (or exactly, depending on definition) equaling the female percentage ain't make non-male incorrect.
I suppose it is technically correct but it just seemed like an "other" category and that kind of bothered me. It seems more negative that way.
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:09 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Seeing how nearly half of all "gamers" are female according to every available statistic, the myth of "largely white male demo" is already outta the window. Yeah, they'll be overrepresented in games like FPS etc, but otherwise it's fairly balanced.
I think those statistics tend to also include mobile games and social games, both of which have a heck of a lot of female overrepresentation. Hence my specification of what a gamer is (otherwise, it's indeed not even an interesting calculation).

Quote:
My argument still stands btw. Most people wouldn't give a crap about this, just like noone complained about numerous other games without a white male protagonist.
Eh, I honestly can't think of another AAA title with a customizable main character that bars north/west-European skin colour.

Plenty of non-customizable characters, sure, but we tend to look at those differently anyway (People talk very differently about Gordon Freeman and the Nerevarine, despite neither having much character)
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:32 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Let's phrase it differently then, since it keeps getting stuck on the option being "forbidden" or "barred". What if it's simply a creative decision. What's wrong with that? Yes you can argue that it may not be the smartest decision from a business perspective, but it certainly does not warrant hate and defamation, as they are getting now. People are conflating bad quality control and horrible graphics glitches with "it's because of SJW, they ruin everything". And that seriously annoys the hell out of me.
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:58 AM
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The stuff you are talking about is stupid.

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Old 05-13-2017, 12:30 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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My argument still stands btw. Most people wouldn't give a crap about this, just like noone complained about numerous other games without a white male protagonist. The difference between now and then is that you now have a near-hysterical bubble of guys online frothing at the mouth waiting for the next target to be painted for them to accuse of "SJW agenda" and getting upset about delusions of "conspiracies" in "their games". "Keep politics out of my games" - the irony is that the only people actually bringing politics into anything are the people that actually get offended or feel threatened by such absolutely irrelevant "issues".
Stop twisting and manipulating, please.

We had one of the developers spewing anti-white SJW politics all over twitter. Literally.

Had he shut up (like every artist should, to be fair) no one would be complaining. Lack of white people customization? BioWare being some cheap assholes, bad development, whatever. Same things people say when they can't be fat or short in games, or when they recycle models by just recoloring the textures.

There's no "bubble of hysterical trolls" or whatever. There's some sick Inquisition-like zealots trying to preach morale to their customers, and you can tell, because they are upfront about it. There's no hidden agenda, it's all in the open, because SJWs love virtue signaling and attention whoring.

Because, exactly as you described, though turning it around, people don't give a damn about it; unless it's shoved on their faces.

There's been worse AAA games in the past, that survived their failures. Andromeda won't because it spat on their own fanboys, and there's no one left to defend them.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I think those statistics tend to also include mobile games and social games, both of which have a heck of a lot of female overrepresentation. Hence my specification of what a gamer is (otherwise, it's indeed not even an interesting calculation).
Depends on your definition of game. In PC I wouldn't give females more than 20% of the total representation, and I'm being generous. Nintendo is its own world, and the other consoles could be worse than PC easily.

Mobile and desktop "games" have a high population of females (as well as little kids and elder people), and they're the reason why statistics changed so much during these last years.

Still, in PC you'll find most of them playing social-centric games like MMORPGs, or casual games with their friends, in genres like MOBA or FPS. Outside that, well, good luck.

Also needs consideration: Most gaming women (specially in consoles) don't game alone. They're sort of carried by their boyfriend or social circle. Most of the time they don't own the console, and it surely isn't their top hobby.

Of course, I'm talking about non-nerds here. But then again, the nerd population is also majorly male. Women aren't as loner as men, and many games are all about you and yourself.

Games are just not designed for women. Eventually, someone will have the money to develop its own stuff, and we might see more females playing "real" games. They won't look like what we play today though, and possibly won't even have many male players anyway, which is kinda the point of catering to an audience.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:58 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Seriously continue this to the halls.
Not every bloody thread has to be about political cancer.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:58 PM
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Wasn't there a pew survey that said more women owned consoles than men? Where's this view that women don't own consoles coming from?
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:18 PM
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Wasn't there a pew survey that said more women owned consoles than men? Where's this view that women don't own consoles coming from?
I wouldn't take any survey like that seriously, specially after all these years of SJW activism. Also, no one said they don't own consoles. I'm saying their population is less than 20% in comparison with males.

Count your gaming friends, go to game conventions, check social media, play with voice. Then do your math. Even in goddamn Japanese conventions, the pinnacle of female geek-dom, males are still the dominant population.

I'm not trying to make a political point or anything like that, I'm just stating the situation of the market.

These games aren't failing because sexism, racism, or whatever, they fail because they have started catering to another demographic. The old one doesn't feel represented, and check other games instead. The new one is overrepresented by bullshit politics, and thus sales don't meet expectations.
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:26 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterscrawl View Post
Wasn't there a pew survey that said more women owned consoles than men? Where's this view that women don't own consoles coming from?
Keep in mind, we're not just talking US market here. It also includes Russia, Poland, Italy and other countries with a youth gender culture that's more reminiscent of the US 80s. US, Canada, West- and North-European countries are probably around 30%-40%, but many east- and South- European countries will be hovering closer to 5% or 10%.

Of course, this is part of a fermi estimate, so it could be completely wrong.

Quote:
Count your gaming friends, go to game conventions, check social media, play with voice. Then do your math. Even in goddamn Japanese conventions, the pinnacle of female geek-dom, males are still the dominant population.
Looking within my social surroundings, it's about a 2-to-1 split.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
Seriously continue this to the halls.
Not every bloody thread has to be about political cancer.
So, how do you like the new alien species?
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Last edited by ijffdrie; 05-13-2017 at 01:32 PM..
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