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  #51  
Old 04-16-2014, 01:35 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
A few trolls on the forums who wanted an evil horde again and felt Thrall's horde was a bunch of hippies who Blizzard listened to in the most warped way imaginable.
I imagine there were some white knight Alliance players from Vanilla who never played WC3 and wanted Horde and its monster races to be evulz to make their armor look shinier.
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  #52  
Old 04-16-2014, 01:44 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Funny how whether it's lore, gameplay or balance, players habitually assume that if they don't like it, it's because Blizzard is planning their changes exclusively based upon the demands of their "enemies" on the forums.

One player-speculated race possibility gets into Cataclysm, and suddenly everyone's convinced that Blizzard fired CDev and replaced it with one guy copy-pasting ideas directly from the forums.

Classic "everything I hate that happens is conveniently traced back to the people whom I already hated in the first place" syndrome.
Oma's the one who said it happened due to player requests, I don't think people on the forums had all that much to do with it, I'm just saying if he thinks people asked for this that he's not making a lot of sense because for every person who wanted an evil WC2 Horde again you had one who wanted the WC3 Horde to continue.
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  #53  
Old 04-16-2014, 02:19 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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I imagine there were some white knight Alliance players from Vanilla who never played WC3 and wanted Horde and its monster races to be evulz to make their armor look shinier.
In Vanilla, it seemed like everything was about the Alliance honestly, all the roleplays on the forums consisted of orcs attack Stormwind LOTR siege style, all the webcomics were about humans, and night elves.

I wonder what WoW would've been like if Vanilla had finished Horde content released, and Cataclysm had finished Alliance content before release?
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #54  
Old 04-16-2014, 03:51 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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I imagine there were some white knight Alliance players from Vanilla who never played WC3 and wanted Horde and its monster races to be evulz to make their armor look shinier.
I certainly consider the Orcs morally questionable; that's part of their appeal. Some of the old may end up being a little more peaceful, but the bulk of them just want blood and glory.

I mean, even in WC3, the second some of them stopped being under control by Thrall, they went and drank demon blood and defiled a demi-god. Then immediately redeemed themselves apparently by doing a last minute 180. Even before WoW they were hypocrites who did what they pleased.
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  #55  
Old 04-16-2014, 04:23 AM
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I certainly consider the Orcs morally questionable; that's part of their appeal. Some of the old may end up being a little more peaceful, but the bulk of them just want blood and glory.
Morally questionable seems more acceptable than the evulz that some seem to have wanted for the orcs.

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I mean, even in WC3, the second some of them stopped being under control by Thrall, they went and drank demon blood and defiled a demi-god. Then immediately redeemed themselves apparently by doing a last minute 180. Even before WoW they were hypocrites who did what they pleased.
I disagree with this assessment. The situations were a bit more nuanced.
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  #56  
Old 04-16-2014, 04:25 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Morally questionable seems more acceptable than the evulz that some seem to have wanted for the orcs.

I disagree with this assessment. The situations were a bit more nuanced.
Was it? Grom knew what he was doing.
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  #57  
Old 04-16-2014, 04:28 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Grom was a sick, addicted man though, wasn't he?
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  #58  
Old 04-16-2014, 04:39 AM
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Was it? Grom knew what he was doing.
Night elves attacked the orcs. The orcs fought back. Cenarius attacked the orcs detecting their fel curse. Cenarius pushed Grom to certain defeat. Grom was already feeling the bloodlust effects of the demons who were now in Azeroth, hence him losing control against the humans in the earlier missions. The troll witch doctor and a Warsong orc warned Grom against drinking from the pool, but Grom was feeling the addict's buzz of the fel pool by this point hence his speech anticipating becoming agents of destruction.

This has been debated so many times already. It does not need to be debated here on a thread about fixing the orcs. If you feel so inclined to discuss the matter further, take it to the Faction thread.
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  #59  
Old 04-16-2014, 04:39 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Grom was a sick, addicted man though, wasn't he?
I suppose you could make the claim that he and his entire clan were sick and addicted. What was his sons excuse? We've plenty of examples of Orcs being morally questionable, hypocritical, and self serving. Much fewer of the opposite: most of those examples being regulated to Thrall or really old Orcs (though even Drek'thar flip flops).

I don't get why Orcs need "fixing". This is how they are. They are brutal. They put combat and death on a high pedastol. They don't fear death and expect others to not fear it. Sure, they have their honor. But when it comes down to it their honor comes down to "If I want it, I can take it if you can't stop me.". They've been like that for ages. They are a race of war: they cant live without it.
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  #60  
Old 04-16-2014, 08:31 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
I suppose you could make the claim that he and his entire clan were sick and addicted. What was his sons excuse? We've plenty of examples of Orcs being morally questionable, hypocritical, and self serving. Much fewer of the opposite: most of those examples being regulated to Thrall or really old Orcs (though even Drek'thar flip flops).

I don't get why Orcs need "fixing". This is how they are. They are brutal. They put combat and death on a high pedastol. They don't fear death and expect others to not fear it. Sure, they have their honor. But when it comes down to it their honor comes down to "If I want it, I can take it if you can't stop me.". They've been like that for ages. They are a race of war: they cant live without it.
Orcs need fixing because we've seen it proven that their mentality just doesn't work. It just leads them to repeatedly collapse and implode on themselves after bullheadedly antagonizing anything that moves.

The Orcs effectively rely upon the mercy of others as long as they keep this attitude up. The moment they eat through all the good will they have ever earned is the moment their species goes extinct.

They have to change or else they'll run out of people willing to put up with their shit.
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  #61  
Old 04-16-2014, 08:36 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Orcs need fixing because we've seen it proven that their mentality just doesn't work. It just leads them to repeatedly collapse and implode on themselves after bullheadedly antagonizing anything that moves.

The Orcs effectively rely upon the mercy of others as long as they keep this attitude up. The moment they eat through all the good will they have ever earned is the moment their species goes extinct.

They have to change or else they'll run out of people willing to put up with their shit.
They honestly should have run out of people willing to put up with their shit long ago. but game play and reasons keeps everyone else from wiping them out. Since we're not allowed to kill them all, I would accept their culture being changed. A warrior like culture like they have is not conducive to being civilized. The culture itself has to change.

Last edited by Kynrind; 04-16-2014 at 08:38 AM..
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  #62  
Old 04-16-2014, 09:24 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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They honestly should have run out of people willing to put up with their shit long ago. but game play and reasons keeps everyone else from wiping them out. Since we're not allowed to kill them all, I would accept their culture being changed. A warrior like culture like they have is not conducive to being civilized. The culture itself has to change.
Hey even if it's not feasible irl this is a fantasy game, it's perfectly fine to have a warrior culture if they're not idiots about it.
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  #63  
Old 04-16-2014, 10:10 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Hey even if it's not feasible irl this is a fantasy game, it's perfectly fine to have a warrior culture if they're not idiots about it.
This. Orcs need to be orcs. Any fix they get needs to honor that.

Klingons maintained a warrior culture just fine. Orcs can too.
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  #64  
Old 04-16-2014, 10:12 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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This. Orcs need to be orcs. Any fix they get needs to honor that.

Klingons maintained a warrior culture just fine. Orcs can too.
Well no, the Klingons were incredibly corrupt.

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  #65  
Old 04-16-2014, 10:18 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Well no, the Klingons were incredibly corrupt.
Corruption I can live with, because it means something worth having is being corrupted. Orcs can have corruption, and have it be something they actively struggle with and fight against, and it would be good for them from a narrative standpoint.
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  #66  
Old 04-16-2014, 10:25 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Corruption I can live with, because it means something worth having is being corrupted. Orcs can have corruption, and have it be something they actively struggle with and fight against, and it would be good for them from a narrative standpoint.
But we already did that.

And now we're doing it again.

Except people aren't as excited anymore.

Because everyone knows the minute we stop Garrosh and the Iron Horde...

We'll have some NEW bad influence among the orcs in less than an expansion and they'll be bad except for the Frostwolves again.

And then we'll do it all -again-.
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  #67  
Old 04-16-2014, 10:47 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
But we already did that.

And now we're doing it again.

Except people aren't as excited anymore.

Because everyone knows the minute we stop Garrosh and the Iron Horde...

We'll have some NEW bad influence among the orcs in less than an expansion and they'll be bad except for the Frostwolves again.

And then we'll do it all -again-.
So we find a new theme, one where a warrior culture can thrive. For instance:

After everything that's happened, orcs slip into a new lethargy, brought on not by demonic withdrawal, but by a feeling they can't do anything right. And Thrall is just as depressed as any of them, if not the most depressed.

Meanwhile big bad threat comes (I'd go for Dreadlords infiltrating and taking over the alliance) and orcs are needed to rise above their guilt and fight again, just with a good reason, and with the experiences of the past to help them know when to stop.
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  #68  
Old 04-16-2014, 10:49 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Blizz will never make the alliance the instigators of conflict.
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  #69  
Old 04-16-2014, 11:02 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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So we find a new theme, one where a warrior culture can thrive. For instance:

After everything that's happened, orcs slip into a new lethargy, brought on not by demonic withdrawal, but by a feeling they can't do anything right. And Thrall is just as depressed as any of them, if not the most depressed.

Meanwhile big bad threat comes (I'd go for Dreadlords infiltrating and taking over the alliance) and orcs are needed to rise above their guilt and fight again, just with a good reason, and with the experiences of the past to help them know when to stop.
I don't think too many people really have a problem with Orcs as a Warrior Culture.

They have a problem with Orcs as an Honourless Bully Culture.

This is what they want to fix.
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  #70  
Old 04-16-2014, 11:07 AM
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Meh. You'd only have to take a few liberties in order to reframe the Orcs in such a way which allows them to keep their so called warrior culture without having them act like morons. Heck, you could even keep the entire aspect of "honor derived from combat" as a major theme provided you were to rejig the parameters in which combat can be used to get honor.

Steer away from plain old "victory or death", and add rules on actions which are considered dishonorable. Curb unwanted behaviour by attaching it with the concept of dishonor, or shame. Finishing a fight may be honourable, but starting one isn't. Fighting in defense of a cause, or of the weak, may be honorable, but fighting for personal gain isn't. That kind of stuff.

Apply these (and others) more or less rigorously, and there's no reason you couldn't have a fantasy warrior culture that doesn't go around being stupid every other Tuesday.
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  #71  
Old 04-16-2014, 11:09 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Meh. You'd only have to take a few liberties in order to reframe the Orcs in such a way which allows them to keep their so called warrior culture without having them act like morons. Heck, you could even keep the entire aspect of "honor derived from combat" as a major theme provided you were to rejig the parameters in which combat can be used to get honor.

Steer away from plain old "victory or death", and add rules on actions which are considered dishonorable. Curb unwanted behaviour by attaching it with the concept of dishonor, or shame. Finishing a fight may be honourable, but starting one isn't. Fighting in defense of a cause, or of the weak, may be honorable, but fighting for personal gain isn't. That kind of stuff.

Apply these (and others) more or less rigorously, and there's no reason you couldn't have a fantasy warrior culture that doesn't go around being stupid every other Tuesday.
At which point does that become Paladin honor though?
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  #72  
Old 04-16-2014, 11:15 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Actually, in my mind the real problem is orcs have no stories from before the Legion corrupted them, no war heroes or role models who hadn't engaged inn genocide. And WoD can fix that.
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  #73  
Old 04-16-2014, 11:17 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Actually, in my mind the real problem is orcs have no stories from before the Legion corrupted them, no war heroes or role models who hadn't engaged inn genocide. And WoD can fix that.
What do you wanna bet it does no such thing?
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  #74  
Old 04-16-2014, 11:19 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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At which point does that become Paladin honor though?
Honor doesn't really factor in for paladins and/or practitioners the Holy Light, does it?

Paladins aren't in it for the glory.
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  #75  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:11 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Honor doesn't really factor in for paladins and/or practitioners the Holy Light, does it?

Paladins aren't in it for the glory.
No but their code of conduct is pretty much identical to what you described the orcs switching to.
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