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Old 09-28-2014, 04:59 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Default A review of "War Crimes" and my thoughts regarding

Hey guys, I literally just finished War Crimes by Christie Golden and was thinking about it as well as the possible consequences thereof. I didn't agree with all of the characterization but I, overall, liked the book a great deal. It's not my favorite WOW novel, which remains Arthas, but it's a really good one.

My review of War Crimes by Christie Golden

A couple of thoughts, expanding on the ones in the review.

1. I like the idea that Garrosh's primary sin is pride and he'd rather go down as a villain than show weakness to other Orcs. He's so obsessed with overcompensating for the fact he was a weak sickly child, he'd prefer to go down as the Azeroth version of [insert dictator of your choice] than admit to feeling remorse for any of his actions. It also does a good job of explaining why he's always doubling down on his evil because he refuses to ever admit "weakness."

His speech at the end was delightfully twisted.

2. I can't say I care all that much for Jaina's warmongering turn because it doesn't really fit with a woman who has survived the destruction of Dalaran and Lordaeron already. She's never been a naive young woman but Princess Leia, the girl who can deal with her planet being destroyed while fighting a rebellion. I think the assumption Jaina wasn't silk hiding steel hurt the characterization even if I understand why the author dealt with this.

3. Sylvanas is TWISTED man. I don't have a problem with this because I think a lot of fanboys like to think Sylvanas isn't a hateful murderer because she's hot. Sorry, but I call it like I see em. I don't think she's one hundred percent pure evil but I think of her as a character like Garrosh. There's potential for redemption there but you have to remember that redemption is needed in the first place. She's not condemned to Hell-equivalent for being a Forsaken probably than all of the monstrous things she's done.

Believing her sister would be happier in the Undercity was just one way of showing how insane her thinking has become.

4. Thrall refusing to admit he ****ed up choosing Garrosh was kind of eye-rolling.

Orcs don't apologize. We get it.

But SHEESH.

5. I approve of Kalecgos telling Jaina. "I'm not going to continue seeing you if you decide to become a Raid Boss."



What did people think of this?
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:31 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Did anyone think we needed Garrosh's perspective on all this?

Or did his words do enough?

I really wish we'd gotten his POV during all of this.

What did you guys think?

Which were the best parts and worst?
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:30 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I never read the book. How was Baine in it?
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Old 10-04-2014, 04:39 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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I never read the book. How was Baine in it?
Baine is trying to do the right thing and it's pretty damn hard because circumstances are conspiring to make what the right thing is unclear. He wants Garrosh to be executed in the name of JusticeTM but realizes that if Garrosh is executed without defense, people will use it as an excuse to blame the Horde.

Tyrande, for example, turns the trial into an attempt to portray Orcs as scheming evil monsters who will never be any good than just Garrosh, himself, was Orc Hitler.

He has a conversation with his father via Tauren magic and a few other people where he decides that he should do the defense. This isn't because he hopes Garrosh will get off but because it'll make sure justice as opposed to vengeance is done.

It's helped, also, that if Garrosh survives then Baine intends to kill him in a duel which he DOESN'T have poison to help him win.
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Old 10-04-2014, 03:23 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Heres the video summary of the book.

It's more entertaining but nothing happens.

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Old 10-04-2014, 03:28 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I think it was an exercise on how to make a completely pointless book, since there was really nothing to it that we didn't already know other than explaining why WoD is happening. Thrall killing Garrosh in WoD just makes the whole spiel with the Celestials seem dumb and pointless ultimately.

Ironically though, it remembered that Genn exists and can still also be a potential jerkass to his enemies so I'll give it a single point for that.
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Old 10-04-2014, 03:49 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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The night when people posted spoilers from the book was pretty hilarious.
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Old 10-04-2014, 05:21 PM
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The night when people posted spoilers from the book was pretty hilarious.
That was the night I finally went "fuck it."
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:31 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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That was the night I finally went "fuck it."
I thought everyone liked mystery science theater 3000.
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:58 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I think it was an exercise on how to make a completely pointless book, since there was really nothing to it that we didn't already know other than explaining why WoD is happening. Thrall killing Garrosh in WoD just makes the whole spiel with the Celestials seem dumb and pointless ultimately.

Ironically though, it remembered that Genn exists and can still also be a potential jerkass to his enemies so I'll give it a single point for that.
I dunno, it's a BIZARRE PREMISE, fully exploiting what an anachronistic world that Azeroth is but I don't think it's a pointless book. The book is a character study and we learn alot about how a lot of characters feel about a lot of different subjects.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:07 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
Baine is trying to do the right thing and it's pretty damn hard because circumstances are conspiring to make what the right thing is unclear. He wants Garrosh to be executed in the name of JusticeTM but realizes that if Garrosh is executed without defense, people will use it as an excuse to blame the Horde.

Tyrande, for example, turns the trial into an attempt to portray Orcs as scheming evil monsters who will never be any good than just Garrosh, himself, was Orc Hitler.

He has a conversation with his father via Tauren magic and a few other people where he decides that he should do the defense. This isn't because he hopes Garrosh will get off but because it'll make sure justice as opposed to vengeance is done.

It's helped, also, that if Garrosh survives then Baine intends to kill him in a duel which he DOESN'T have poison to help him win.
Am I the only one who finds this makes no goddang sense?
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:09 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Am I the only one who finds this makes no goddang sense?
I dunno, I found it made sense in the context that Baine is trying to protect the orcish race from looking like complete monsters by pointing out Garrosh's orders started off making sense and it wasn't the case of every orc being evil. He also thinks he's honoring a higher calling by making sure even his enemy receives a fair trial.

In the end, Baine manages to defend the Horde but most of Garrosh's actions come off as indefensible anyway.

His role in warning Theramore is exposed, however.
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:45 AM
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I was rather disappointed that the book ended up not being about a custody battle for Garrosh's sentencing, but an actual trial. For one thing, the Horde didn't get air out their dirty laundry against Garrosh. For another, the Alliance being forced to defend Garrosh would have been pretty damn hilarious.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:15 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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I was rather disappointed that the book ended up not being about a custody battle for Garrosh's sentencing, but an actual trial. For one thing, the Horde didn't get air out their dirty laundry against Garrosh. For another, the Alliance being forced to defend Garrosh would have been pretty damn hilarious.
My biggest complaint?

Why didn't they bring up the fact that it was Varian who began the war against the Horde in the first place? It would have been the perfect time to do a flashback to the Battle of Undercity and have Varian's intentions to evict the Horde mentioned.

The absence of mentioning the Gilneas issue was also bad.

Then again, the book would have been twice as long that way.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:18 AM
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My biggest complaint?

Why didn't they bring up the fact that it was Varian who began the war against the Horde in the first place? It would have been the perfect time to do a flashback to the Battle of Undercity and have Varian's intentions to evict the Horde mentioned.

The absence of mentioning the Gilneas issue was also bad.

Then again, the book would have been twice as long that way.
They were at ''peace'' after Wrath. Garrosh started it by invading Gilneas.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:30 AM
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My biggest complaint?

Why didn't they bring up the fact that it was Varian who began the war against the Horde in the first place? It would have been the perfect time to do a flashback to the Battle of Undercity and have Varian's intentions to evict the Horde mentioned.

The absence of mentioning the Gilneas issue was also bad.

Then again, the book would have been twice as long that way.
Varian's declaration got retconned/changed into them being 'at peace' (as Smoke says) after Wrath. Garrosh initiated things because the Alliance declaring war would A) Make them not Stupid Good and B) Make it even more baffling why they're doing absolutely fuck all. Instead of not realising they were at war until Theramore, they'd FORGET they were fighting a war THEY DECLARED.

Admittedly though, that could have actually made some degree of sense with regards to the - sigh - High King bullshit: the other leaders could have been reluctant to aid Varian in fighting a war he'd more or less declared in a fit of anger, viewing it as HIS problem that they'd been dragged into by virtue of being part of the Alliance. It would make some more sense as to why only Stormwind is really doing anything other than a glorified defensive action.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:48 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
I dunno, I found it made sense in the context that Baine is trying to protect the orcish race from looking like complete monsters by pointing out Garrosh's orders started off making sense and it wasn't the case of every orc being evil. He also thinks he's honoring a higher calling by making sure even his enemy receives a fair trial.

In the end, Baine manages to defend the Horde but most of Garrosh's actions come off as indefensible anyway.

His role in warning Theramore is exposed, however.
Defending Garrosh and Defending the Orcs are not necssarily the same thing though, Baine could've been defense attorney for the Horde/orcs in general without defending Garrosh.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:25 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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They were at ''peace'' after Wrath. Garrosh started it by invading Gilneas.
1. Clearly I need to get more time to play WoW thoroughly.

2. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in WOW and I've heard quite a few dumb things.

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Defending Garrosh and Defending the Orcs are not necssarily the same thing though, Baine could've been defense attorney for the Horde/orcs in general without defending Garrosh.
Yeah, it's an absurd situation which Baine himself notes as he hates Garrosh more than anyone save possibly Jaina Proudmoore.

It's a crazy-crazy trial since Garrosh doesn't deny the charges or offers a defense. He also refuses to cooperate with Baine.

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Varian's declaration got retconned/changed into them being 'at peace' (as Smoke says) after Wrath. Garrosh initiated things because the Alliance declaring war would A) Make them not Stupid Good and B) Make it even more baffling why they're doing absolutely fuck all. Instead of not realising they were at war until Theramore, they'd FORGET they were fighting a war THEY DECLARED.

Admittedly though, that could have actually made some degree of sense with regards to the - sigh - High King bullshit: the other leaders could have been reluctant to aid Varian in fighting a war he'd more or less declared in a fit of anger, viewing it as HIS problem that they'd been dragged into by virtue of being part of the Alliance. It would make some more sense as to why only Stormwind is really doing anything other than a glorified defensive action.
Yeah, that is just...inexplicable.
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:26 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Maybe because if the orcs got blamed then the other races would follow soon. Better to stop it spreading at Garrosh then have it work its way in. Just a thought.
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:38 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Maybe because if the orcs got blamed then the other races would follow soon. Better to stop it spreading at Garrosh then have it work its way in. Just a thought.
Tyrande really was an incredibly poor choice for the prosecution, though. In her desire to blame the orcs for everything, she ended up getting Jaina Proudmoore to forgive the Horde (just a little bit). She also got the Lifebender and Velen to say they would forgive the orcs for their past actions. Which, really, is what you get when you get living saints on the stand.

Some of her charges were also insane and had nothing to do with Garrosh.


Wait, should I be spoiler blocking everything? The book has been out for awhile.
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:41 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Heres the video summary of the book.

It's more entertaining but nothing happens.
I imagine the trial should have gone like this.

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Old 10-05-2014, 10:25 AM
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for the impact the trial had, its easier to forget the book existed and just say kairoz got him out immediatleyt.
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:56 AM
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Yeah really the book sounds like self-indulgent hypothetical nonsense.

Thing about fantasy series like this is, if you actually put the characters in a prism to analyze their personalities and actions like this book seems to, they really don't hold up. There is just not enough there for this kind of story.

Same problem I had with what they tried to do with Arthas really. Arthas is a fun wise-cracking hero turned villain with a bit of pathos and some cool relationship stuff thrown in. You try to give him an extensive backstory, though? Or to go into his history? Or to give him some deep, emotional torment? Oh boy. It's just not that kind of series.
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Old 10-05-2014, 11:21 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Yeah really the book sounds like self-indulgent hypothetical nonsense.

Thing about fantasy series like this is, if you actually put the characters in a prism to analyze their personalities and actions like this book seems to, they really don't hold up. There is just not enough there for this kind of story.

Same problem I had with what they tried to do with Arthas really. Arthas is a fun wise-cracking hero turned villain with a bit of pathos and some cool relationship stuff thrown in. You try to give him an extensive backstory, though? Or to go into his history? Or to give him some deep, emotional torment? Oh boy. It's just not that kind of series.
Which probably goes to show this is a matter of YMMV as I consider Arthas not just the best WoW book but a good fantasy novel period. I gave it a ten out of ten on my blog for deconstructing the Handsome PrinceTM stereotype.
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Old 10-05-2014, 11:22 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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That's a funny way to spell "The Last Guardian."
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