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  #26  
Old 04-15-2015, 12:24 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
You guys do make me wonder though. If Blackmoore found Thrall near the end of the first war, how would he know anything about orcs to know what to do with Thrall.
Obviously, he was originally planning to sell him to the darkmoon faire or the kirin tor as an otherworldy oddity. Then orcs had the damn nerve to come to Lordaeron and ruin the rarity value, meaning he couldn't get rid of it. Then came the plan to raise him as a gladiator, and only after the second war did the warchief plan come about.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:47 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I'm sure rumours of the Green Skin barbarbians from the south had reached Lordaeron by then.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:23 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I don't believe the Frostwolves were mentioned by name in WC1, since all the lore background for the Orc Raider was with the Sythegore Arm. Orgrim disbanding that was to distance his horde from Blackhand, since the Sythegore Arm was apparently Blackhand's Thing.

That being said, I never really bought that argument of the raiders getting cut, since it seemed like it was just an arbitrary choice in order to have Ogres/Ogre-Magi be the opposite number for Knights/Paladins. If I had the chance to do WC2 over again, I'd probably find a way to have the Raider unit still in play, even if the Ogre/Ogre-Mage outclasses it as a Knight-counter.

Given how long it's been since the Sythegore Arm has been mentioned, and since nothing about Blackhand's portrayal since WC1 has capitalized on him being a big cavalry guy, I'd be willing to throw out the Arm completely and just roll with the Frostwolves being the source of wolves for the Raiders.
Arbitrary gameplay choice or not, I really liked the element. I felt it added to the Doomhammer-Gul'dan-Blackhand power triangle within the WCII Horde. I would've added the Raider back as a BtDP unit, if we had the power to change old games, and give the Alliance some new unit in return.

But all that being said, I wouldn't be onboard with the Frostwolves being the source of all First War raiders, because:

1) It undermines raiders from the other clans. The Blackrock and Black Tooth Grin used to have a proud raider heritage in old lore. But even if you ignore that, the Thunderlords still have theirs and I think the Warsong gained some of these elements in WoD lore. None of the novels dwell on wolfrider raiders, but in RotH the Horde organizes a group of wolfriding letter carriers. Durotan receives one from a female wolfrider, presumably from another clan, before he agrees to help attack that Draenei city whose name I forget.

2) The Frostwolves leave the Horde by Year 0. That's about four-to-five years of a Horde that has raiders, without any Frostwolf influence, unless there's a group of Frostwolves who renounced Durotan and chose to follow Blackhand/Gul'dan.

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
You guys do make me wonder though. If Blackmoore found Thrall near the end of the first war, how would he know anything about orcs to know what to do with Thrall.
I'm pretty sure that in current lore, it's the first time anyone in Lordaeron saw an orc and lived to tell about it.


EDIT: Here's one more thing. WoD retconned the Dragonmaw out of existence on Draenor, didn't it? So at this point in Azeroth, where would Zuluhed be and when would he gain power as a chieftain? When would he see visions leading him to the Dragon Soul? (Current lore is vague on when this happens, methinks.)

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  #29  
Old 04-15-2015, 08:37 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I'm sure rumours of the Green Skin barbarbians from the south had reached Lordaeron by then.
Those are totally just drakonids from the swamp of sorrows acting up again. Please buy this baby?

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EDIT: Here's one more thing. WoD retconned the Dragonmaw out of existence on Draenor, didn't it?
Alternate Draenor, at least. A!D also misses four other clans that were around at the time in the main universe though (bonechewer, redwalker, whiteclaw, bladewind)
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  #30  
Old 04-15-2015, 08:59 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I don't think minor clans whose only reason for existence is to be wiped out should matter. But yeah, we are missing Bonechewer and Dragonmaw. Not sure what's going on with Black Tooth Grin and Stormreaver though.
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Old 04-15-2015, 09:17 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
I don't think minor clans whose only reason for existence is to be wiped out should matter. But yeah, we are missing Bonechewer and Dragonmaw. Not sure what's going on with Black Tooth Grin and Stormreaver though.
Black Tooth Grin was always Rend and Maim's posse. Given how little differentiation the Blackrock got in that respect (did Rend/Maim show up at all?) it makes sense that they wouldn't be involved in WoD.

Stormreaver was Gul'dan's posse, which ToD established didn't get kickstarted until after Doomhammer destroyed the Shadow Council.

Bonechewer feels like a special case (BtDP-exclusive, right?) but Whiteclaw, Redwalker, and Bladewind all feel like clans that never had any identity assigned to them. If we want to argue that Bladewind evolved into the Burning Blade, that at least gives that crew a bit more history.
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  #32  
Old 04-15-2015, 09:24 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I don't think minor clans whose only reason for existence is to be wiped out should matter.
You dare mock the greatest clans in all of existence !?!???!???!?? BLASPHEMY!

(Also, the Bladewind were never mentioned as being wiped out. Last we saw of them, they joined Ner'zhul's horde. Whiteclaws did get wiped out, but IIRC the redwalkers did still exist as a clan, just not in notable numbers anymore.)

Quote:
But yeah, we are missing Bonechewer and Dragonmaw. Not sure what's going on with Black Tooth Grin and Stormreaver though.
Black Tooth Grin and Stormreaver only came into existence in between the first and second war. That dates back all the way to the Warcraft II manual. Rise of the Horde had Bonechewer and Dragonmaw during the pre-war era. The Lightning's Blade Clan only got mentioned in Beyond the Dark Portal, so they could be a post-war clan.

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Bonechewer feels like a special case (BtDP-exclusive, right?) but Whiteclaw, Redwalker, and Bladewind all feel like clans that never had any identity assigned to them. If we want to argue that Bladewind evolved into the Burning Blade, that at least gives that crew a bit more history.
Bladewind were still around as a clan several years after the Burning Blade became a thing.
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Old 04-15-2015, 09:35 AM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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Tagar and some items of the clan are seen in Talador. Hurkan was also found in the database... 2 or 3 IDs but non got live. (maybe the bonechewers are the orcs that form the AU!Shadow Council?)

We donīt need the Dragonmaws, Bonechewers or the other book clans... we have a Flowerpicker clan reference to compensate!
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Old 04-15-2015, 09:36 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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The dragonmaw really makes no sense as a pre-Azeroth clan...
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  #35  
Old 04-15-2015, 09:36 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Bladewind were still around as a clan several years after the Burning Blade became a thing.
Yeah, but aside from tussling with the Warsong and then joining Ner'zhul, they have no identity, no characters, no purpose.

Honestly, the Burning Blade didn't even have any of that in the Second War; they had a piece of artwork by Metzen and a half-hearted description in the WC2 manual that did little more than take up space. Nothing differentiated the WC2 Burning Blade except the color assigned to them in the editor.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2015, 09:37 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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We donīt need the Dragonmaws, Bonechewers or the other book clans... we have a Flowerpicker clan reference to compensate!
I think I recall some of the shadow council mobs in Talador having been marked as bonechewers in the beta, but that didn't make it to live.

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The dragonmaw really makes no sense as a pre-Azeroth clan...
There are actual Draenor-native dragons now.

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Yeah, but aside from tussling with the Warsong and then joining Ner'zhul, they have no identity, no characters, no purpose.
Eh, I felt the redwalker had a bit to them. An aggressive clan that nontheless has a sense of honor to such a degree that they ain't on board with the horde.

The others, I would agree though. That's what we be callin' an opportunity.
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  #37  
Old 04-15-2015, 09:38 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Crossed Axes (War2)

Technically the Black Tooth Grin were formed just before the Horde came through the portal, with Rend and Maim taking control of it after Orgrim's rise.

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Originally Posted by Warcraft II manual
The Black Tooth Grin clan was originally part of the Blackrock clan, but splintered off before the Horde's passing into Azeroth. After their father was deposed from his position as War Chief by Orgrim Doomhammer, Rend and Maim decided to gain control over their own faction within the Horde without directly opposing the Doomhammer's ascension to power.
My headcanon is that Blackhand formed the Black Tooth Grin from the Blackrock and led both during his life, with the understanding that each of his sons would get to inherit a clan when he passed on.

EDIT: And man, the recent lore makes me respect the Blackhand family more than I ever did in the '90s. Here's hoping that Rend takes control of the Iron Horde, eh?

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Honestly, the Burning Blade didn't even have any of that in the Second War; they had a piece of artwork by Metzen and a half-hearted description in the WC2 manual that did little more than take up space. Nothing differentiated the WC2 Burning Blade except the color assigned to them in the editor.
Well, you do see them in the final missions at Blackrock Spire and the Dark Portal. I always felt it was a sign that Doomhammer was getting desperate, throwing his crazies forward when his cause was all but lost. And sure enough--the ToD novel runs with this and says that Doomhammer unleashed the Burning Blade at the battle of Blackrock Spire.

Also, at the beginning of the final Dark Portal level, the first enemies you face are a Burning Blade ogre settlement---orange ogres, among several of their Ogre Mounds and an Altar of Storms. When you consider the manual told us that ogre enforcers were the only thing keeping the Burning Blade from anarchy, this could easily be interpreted as destroying the Burning Blade's "leadership". Think Kirin Tor, only more chaotic and musclebound.

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  #38  
Old 04-15-2015, 11:48 AM
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Well, you do see them in the final missions at Blackrock Spire and the Dark Portal. I always felt it was a sign that Doomhammer was getting desperate, throwing his crazies forward when his cause was all but lost. And sure enough--the ToD novel runs with this and says that Doomhammer unleashed the Burning Blade at the battle of Blackrock Spire.

Also, at the beginning of the final Dark Portal level, the first enemies you face are a Burning Blade ogre settlement---orange ogres, among several of their Ogre Mounds and an Altar of Storms. When you consider the manual told us that ogre enforcers were the only thing keeping the Burning Blade from anarchy, this could easily be interpreted as destroying the Burning Blade's "leadership". Think Kirin Tor, only more chaotic and musclebound.
There is no ToD novel, only a game. Only a game. Only a game.
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  #39  
Old 04-16-2015, 10:24 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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There is no ToD novel, only a game. Only a game. Only a game.
On the topic of Tides of Darkness... are there any named characters who we know were working for Orgrim during the Second War? Brox and Varok are two, for sure, but I'm wondering if there are any others.
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:29 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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On the topic of Tides of Darkness... are there any named characters who we know were working for Orgrim during the Second War? Brox and Varok are two, for sure, but I'm wondering if there are any others.
Eitrigg was also a Blackrock orc, so he's implied. But none of those three are mentioned in the ToD novel.

Instead it's Tharbek as his second-in-command, with no other named Blackrock orcs accounted for. Others who cooperate with Orgrim in that novel are the chieftains (e.g. Rend Blackhand saving Zul'jin and destroying Gul'dan, Zuluhed getting the dragons ready, Kilrogg attacking Ironforge), Zul'jin, and Teron Gorefiend.
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  #41  
Old 04-16-2015, 10:35 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Eitrigg was also a Blackrock orc, so he's implied. But none of those three are mentioned in the ToD novel.

Instead it's Tharbek as his second-in-command, with no other named Blackrock orcs accounted for. Others who cooperate with Orgrim in that novel are the chieftains (e.g. Rend Blackhand saving Zul'jin and destroying Gul'dan, Zuluhed getting the dragons ready, Kilrogg attacking Ironforge), Zul'jin, and Teron Gorefiend.
I'd forgotten about Eitrigg.

Hmm....
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:47 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'd forgotten about Eitrigg.

Hmm....
Of course, there's a good chance he was just a common soldier. Like Rexxar.

We don't know what Rexxar did during these times, except that he fought at both destructions of the Dark Portal, linking up with Grom Hellscream after the second one. Presumably until he got tired of people and took a canoe to Kalimdor.
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  #43  
Old 04-17-2015, 02:17 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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It occurs to me that if you try to make sense of the current timeline, Med'an and Thrall are roughly the same age.

... Garona's story is so, so weird.
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:30 PM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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It occurs to me that if you try to make sense of the current timeline, Med'an and Thrall are roughly the same age.

... Garona's story is so, so weird.
That one got me thinking!

Calculating through Khadgar's age, Garona stayed in Karazhan around the year 3. Lets say that the orc pregnancy is the same as the human so Med'an is like 4 years younger than Thrall?
Yea, weird.

Oh my old god! Now I realized that Llane's assassination in year 4 (as revealed on Twitter) makes sense now... as Med'an is said to have been born after his death... and after Garona's torture? How cruel of you, Orgrim!

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  #45  
Old 04-19-2015, 05:02 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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This is starting to turn into a "First War timeline" thread, but hopefully I'll be able to explain why at some point.

So we know that when Khadgar and Lothar go with Garona to Karazhan to kill Medivh, Llane is still alive. When Medivh dies, Gul'dan goes into a coma.

I'm a little hazy about the timeline proceeding from that point, focusing specifically on Garona.

Garona flees the fight with Medivh. Sometime after that, she returns to Stormwind and becomes Llane's trusted advisor. She's still turning information over to the Shadow Council, though, and they eventually order her/mind control her into killing Llane.

I'm just confused over how this series of events aligns up with Orgrim's coup. Some sources have got the Horde at the gates of Stormwind when Garona kills Llane, but differ on whether Orgrim or Blackhand is running the Horde at that point. If that's the case, it means Orgrim doesn't destroy the Shadow Council until after Stormwind has been conquered.

Is there a consensus on how this plays out?
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