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  #51  
Old 11-14-2012, 05:08 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Originally Posted by destron View Post
He wouldn't have pursued her immediately, but as C9H20 pointed out, it's hard to believe that he'd take a live and let live attitude towards the Forsaken. Even so, Sylvanas betrayed him, not vice versa.
Yep, but he would still have kept his part of the bargain. Sylvanas was to have left, and he was supposed to have helped in taking the city. Now, if she had left, then the deal would have been kept by both sides, and even if they'd attacked each other in the future, it wouldn't have been betrayal(as the bargain would have been over) but aggressiveness. Betrayal is when you backstab.

What I mean is, assume that a treaty expires. Then after that, the sides who signed it don't need to obey it anymore.

Now, if Sylvanas had left, and then attacked Garithos in the future, it wouldn't be betrayal. Would it be evil? Yes, but it wouldn't be backstabbing, unless they are allies.
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  #52  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:31 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
That other thread reminded me, Garrosh Hellscream is not a young orc! He was a fully-grown adult by the end of the Second War, so he's had like ten+ years more experience than Thrall.
A fully-grown adult, or maybe a teenager. He's shown in Beyond the Dark Portal, but I don't remember if it mentions his age.
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  #53  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:34 AM
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A fully-grown adult, or maybe a teenager. He's shown in Beyond the Dark Portal, but I don't remember if it mentions his age.
They didn't use fel magic to age him, but he was old enough to join the army. Probably was an adult or very close to being one.
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  #54  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:36 AM
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They didn't use fel magic to age him, but he was old enough to join the army. Probably was an adult or very close to being one.
That's why he was in hiding in the sick village. He didn't want to get drafted.
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  #55  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
That's why he was in hiding in the sick village. He didn't want to get drafted.
Wrong. He was hiding from Metzen's writing.
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  #56  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:49 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I wonder whether the majority of the Mag'har support Garrosh. They are proud of themselves because they are the orcs who stuck to the old traditions are clean of fel corruption, even if it was just because of their malady, which would make it strange if they were all in favor of Hellscream's policies.
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  #57  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:51 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Wrong. He was hiding from Metzen's writing.
Nope! He was hiding from the Spartan/Japanese-esque relationships the older orcs have toward the new ones.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #58  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I wonder whether the majority of the Mag'har support Garrosh. They are proud of themselves because they are the orcs who stuck to the old traditions are clean of fel corruption, even if it was just because of their malady, which would make it strange if they were all in favor of Hellscream's policies.
Well the Mag'har don't really want to play that much of an active role in the Horde, they're happy enough by themselves on Draenor. They're passive about the Horde, but Garrosh is very actively pro-Horde, so I don't think the Mag'har really enjoy the idea of fighting the Warchief's land war on Azeroth. You barely see any of them fighting for the Horde.

Warchief Hellscream has a few ethnically Mag'har generals in his army, but they seem to belong squarely in Garrosh's faction and are not representative of their entire tribe of orc.
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  #59  
Old 11-14-2012, 08:23 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
Warchief Hellscream has a few ethnically Mag'har generals in his army, but they seem to belong squarely in Garrosh's faction and are not representative of their entire tribe of orc.
That's the reason why I was wondering. The only Mag'har we see nowadays are completely loyal to Garrosh and are, at times, even worse than the green orcs.
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  #60  
Old 11-14-2012, 08:30 AM
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That's the reason why I was wondering. The only Mag'har we see nowadays are completely loyal to Garrosh and are, at times, even worse than the green orcs.
Cult of personality, not racial loyalty.
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  #61  
Old 11-14-2012, 08:31 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Is geyah still alive? Im sure she would hold a significant pull over the nagrand mag`har. And you think the outlands explosion was due to demonic energy? No, geyah just stomped her foot!
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  #62  
Old 11-14-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by neoshadow View Post
Is geyah still alive? Im sure she would hold a significant pull over the nagrand mag`har. And you think the outlands explosion was due to demonic energy? No, geyah just stomped her foot!
I guess some of Garrosh's contempt for Thrall is caused by Geyah. She took care of him, and then some guy comes through the portal claiming to be her long lost grandchild. Garrosh probably feels like she replaced him with Thrall and now he wants to show her who's more worthy of being doted on.
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  #63  
Old 11-14-2012, 08:49 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I guess some of Garrosh's contempt for Thrall is caused by Geyah. She took care of him, and then some guy comes through the portal claiming to be her long lost grandchild. Garrosh probably feels like she replaced him with Thrall and now he wants to show her who's more worthy of being doted on.
But that would be genuine issues that could give a small amount of understanding of garrosh... It can never be true!
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  #64  
Old 11-14-2012, 09:36 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Nope! He was hiding from the Spartan/Japanese-esque relationships the older orcs have toward the new ones.
Is there even any generally accepted proof that Spartains did that?

I for one think this is a case of a RL misconception that gets propagated around.

If anything it was the Athenians who were packing fudge, hell the comedy playwright Aristophanes spoofed the issue by saying that all of the adult males in the city are "europroktos" which means wide-arsed.
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  #65  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:06 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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(Time for a Grackle obligatory Second War post.)

Myth: "The orcs were a willing proxy army for the Burning Legion during the First War and Second War."

The bolded section is the myth. In actuality, it seems the Burning Legion's scheme was foiled at the moment of Medivh's death, and it was completely severed at the moment of Blackhand's death.

The orcs fought the Second War so they could have enough land to live on, even if this meant killing the people living on that land.

(The myth exists because it was true during Warcraft III. )
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  #66  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:13 AM
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Myth: Trolls can swim


/trollface
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  #67  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:19 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Myth: Trolls can swim


/trollface


. . . correctly said. Forest trolls, anyway.


~ ~ ~ ~

Myth: The following images are real, according to lore.



Currently unknown: Whether the following image is real.



(The new Dentarg proves that one-headed ogres can be ogre-magi, but it's less clear if two-headed ogres can be non-ogre-magi. I would assume yes, but that's speculation.)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-14-2012 at 10:26 AM..
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  #68  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Is there even any generally accepted proof that Spartains did that?

I for one think this is a case of a RL misconception that gets propagated around.

If anything it was the Athenians who were packing fudge, hell the comedy playwright Aristophanes spoofed the issue by saying that all of the adult males in the city are "europroktos" which means wide-arsed.
The Spartan army probably did not engage in institutionalized sodomy (to borrow Bolvar's favorite word) for the simple reason that it was frowned upon in general in Classical Greece.

All city states including Sparta shared a tradition of pederasty, where an older man would take a younger man as his lover in return for acting as his mentor, there was a stigma against anal sex though, so just as throughout most societies you could still imply a lack of manliness by suggesting that a man was the "receiver" in a homosexual relationship.

So this one is one of those real life myths that is half true, Yes spartan men had boy "lovers" but the relationships were in most cases not sexual.
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  #69  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:47 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post


. . . correctly said. Forest trolls, anyway.


~ ~ ~ ~

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Currently unknown: Whether the following image is real.



(The new Dentarg proves that one-headed ogres can be ogre-magi, but it's less clear if two-headed ogres can be non-ogre-magi. I would assume yes, but that's speculation.)
I gotta ask Grackle, but why are you so impressed by the WCII era?

I find it largely unoriginal and perhaps best summed up as Lord of the Rings meets WWI.

Is it sentimental? The legacy factor?

/confused
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  #70  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunn View Post
The Spartan army probably did not engage in institutionalized sodomy (to borrow Bolvar's favorite word) for the simple reason that it was frowned upon in general in Classical Greece.

All city states including Sparta shared a tradition of pederasty, where an older man would take a younger man as his lover in return for acting as his mentor, there was a stigma against anal sex though, so just as throughout most societies you could still imply a lack of manliness by suggesting that a man was the "receiver" in a homosexual relationship.

So this one is one of those real life myths that is half true, Yes spartan men had boy "lovers" but the relationships were in most cases not sexual.
I've tried to find any real facts for that and the only facts I've found for your case were for Athens. All other city states used to ridicule them for it. The Spartans had laws against pederasty.
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  #71  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunn View Post
The Spartan army probably did not engage in institutionalized sodomy (to borrow Bolvar's favorite word) for the simple reason that it was frowned upon in general in Classical Greece.

All city states including Sparta shared a tradition of pederasty, where an older man would take a younger man as his lover in return for acting as his mentor, there was a stigma against anal sex though, so just as throughout most societies you could still imply a lack of manliness by suggesting that a man was the "receiver" in a homosexual relationship.

So this one is one of those real life myths that is half true, Yes spartan men had boy "lovers" but the relationships were in most cases not sexual.


Sparta has its reputation to consider...
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  #72  
Old 11-14-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
(The new Dentarg proves that one-headed ogres can be ogre-magi, but it's less clear if two-headed ogres can be non-ogre-magi. I would assume yes, but that's speculation.)
WoW-Shmow. Warcraft III had most of the ogres be two-headed, with the Stonemaul guys being one-headed, except for the magic.

That's good enough for me.
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  #73  
Old 11-14-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I gotta ask Grackle, but why are you so impressed by the WCII era?

I find it largely unoriginal and perhaps best summed up as Lord of the Rings meets WWI.

Is it sentimental? The legacy factor?

/confused
I know you didn't ask me the question, but one reason I've always preferred WCII to WCIII or WoW, besides it being my introduction to the franchise, was because it was before the franchise took a turn towards heroic fantasy.


Back during WCII, the warcraft series was a story of societies clashing, of great armies marching against eachother, great armies which, while they may have included heroic individuals in their ranks, were not decided by the actions of these singular men. The world was larger despite being geographically smaller: all of the known world of Azeroth (now simply the Eastern Kingdoms) was embroiled in the war, unlike WCIII which was pretty much restricted to Lordaeron and North-central Kalimdor, or WoW in which there are still whole zones and societies which have nothing to do with the war.

Simply put, it was a game about WAR and CRAFT- the entire world was fighting a WAR, not going on an adventure, and there was just as much politicking in the story, the establishment of treaties and betrayal and concern over the lack of resources- that is CRAFT.


While Blizzard has made an arguably successful attempt to reintroduce the WAR in WARcraft since Cata, I still feel it hasn't had any actual CRAFT since WCII.

Also I liked WCII because it seemed to be pushing somewhat towards a more steampunky society, with oil being a major resource. Despite the addition of some high tech dwarven units in WCIII I think the universe took a step backwards in its techology and from WCIII until WotLK it was mostly "medieval fantasy" with the steampunk gradually finding its way back into the setting. Of course I wont be satisfied until all melee weapons are removed from the game and everyone runs around with bayonets.
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  #74  
Old 11-14-2012, 12:53 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Of course I wont be satisfied until all melee weapons are removed from the game and everyone runs around with bayonets.
Heh, makes two of us.


As for the rest of your post I can see where you are coming from, and I too greatly prefer a story of large nations clashing in a internally realistic fashion, to heroic classic heroic fantasy. I would see individual characters, the heroes if you like, simply as tools to give a soul to the setting, a way to show the events from the ground perspective. Otherwise the conflict would come off as some stuffy encyclopedia entry about an imaginary war.

However WCII era warcraft has rather sad thematic overtones in that case. What I mean is that when one army is exemplified by noble warriors backed by a magical force of goodness who battle demon consorting green skinned monsters of dubious moral fiber... well it brings up pictures of cliche heroic fantasy.
This picture is further enforced by having most if not all notable characters fall into these molds

And while you WCII era fans may see it in a more complex light the above is how later fans mostly see it.


But it is in hopes of seeing such a WAR-CRAFT scenario you talk of in the comparatively morally grayer WoW era that I hold on to this game, all of the politicking and war goodness with 50% less cliches!
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  #75  
Old 11-14-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Myth: The following images are real, according to lore.
You mean wrongly omitted from one non-naval novel. A juggernaught shows up in WoW. It had to have existed.

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Simply put, it was a game about WAR and CRAFT- the entire world was fighting a WAR, not going on an adventure, and there was just as much politicking in the story, the establishment of treaties and betrayal and concern over the lack of resources- that is CRAFT.
Probably just wordplay, but "Warcraft" and "Starcraft" are both words on their own. Has Blizzard's legal team made that a myth?
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