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Old 07-11-2019, 02:36 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Uh-huh. And when Cortez quotes "Never again", I suppose she's referring to exact dictionary definitions of the words "never" and "again". Heh. No, sir. She wasn't comparing these sites to America's past internment camps. Don't pretend she was.
Because she can only be referring to one but not both as historical practices that should not be repeated? Or the fact that she may actually have an actual grasp of historical events?

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It's funny. For the bulk of his life, George Takei would talk about the his experience in Japanese internment camps, or "prison camps" as he would more appropriately specify. Then Cortez shoots off some false equivocation, and all of a sudden he starts calling them concentration camps.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/io9.giz...1533358984/amp

I guess he doesn't want his own history to get left behind as the new false equivalences get running.

Yeah. Don't tell me this isn't a narrative shift.
:shrug: You are welcome to ignore the primary sources, secondary sources, historians, and any remnants of your sanity all you want, BaronGrackle. No skin off my back. But make not mistake about it, the Japanese internment camps were US-sanctioned concentration camps, and this is not somehow a crazy "narrative shift" invented in mid-July 2019 to cover for a junior US representative. Take a look. It's in a book. It's Reading about US Concentration Camps.

Last edited by Genesis; 07-11-2019 at 02:47 PM..
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  #57927  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:44 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Remember the good old days when conservatives said things like "it's not like trump is going to round people up and put them in camps?"
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/21/polit...ids/index.html
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:49 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Because she can only be referring to one but not both as historical practices that should not be repeated?
These aren't even comparable, Genesis. If the Nazi concentration camps resembled the wartime internment camps in the U.S. and other countries, then phrases like "never again" wouldn't exist.

Do you understand that?
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:00 PM
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Do you understand that?
Do you think it's productive to dwell upon a poor choice of words when human rights are inarguably being violated in ways that, from what I've heard, go beyond lack of funding and resources?
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:56 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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These aren't even comparable, Genesis. If the Nazi concentration camps resembled the wartime internment camps in the U.S. and other countries, then phrases like "never again" wouldn't exist.

Do you understand that?
Help me understand, what you're saying is essentially...

"So long as we're not gassing and murdering people in death camps no one is allowed to make any comparison between the concentration camps in other human rights violations, particularly in Nazi Germany, and what the US is doing right now (Or did to the Japanese in WW2) and anyone who does is dumb / evil / disingenuous"

am I understanding your pov?


Because frankly even if you don't agree I'd think you can understand that people who believe the opposite of that exist and have a pretty good leg to stand on.

Regardless of whether we're MURDERING people or not, the camps the US has for refugees have deplorable conditions and that the treatment is so bad that it's comparable to other historic human rights abuses, it's not really pertinent whether we don't cross the bar of 'literally mass-murdering people' currently.

What's happening is unacceptable and it should stop and people acting like the problem is AoC and others comparing them to death camps is... honestly confusing to me, like what are your fucking priorities?
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Old 07-12-2019, 03:16 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Do you think it's productive to dwell upon a poor choice of words when human rights are inarguably being violated in ways that, from what I've heard, go beyond lack of funding and resources?
I'm dwelling because, so far, you're the only one who seems to acknowledge that it actually IS a poor choice of words. The others are bending over backwards, fumbling about to make excuses for her.

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Help me understand, what you're saying is essentially...

"So long as we're not gassing and murdering people in death camps no one is allowed to make any comparison between the concentration camps in other human rights violations, particularly in Nazi Germany, and what the US is doing right now (Or did to the Japanese in WW2) and anyone who does is dumb / evil / disingenuous"

am I understanding your pov?


Because frankly even if you don't agree I'd think you can understand that people who believe the opposite of that exist and have a pretty good leg to stand on.
I'm supposed to understand there are people who believe the opposite - people who believe what the U.S. actions now and in WWII are pretty much the same as the systematic genocide perpetuated by Germany in WWII? I should accept that intelligent people have this opinion?

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Regardless of whether we're MURDERING people or not, the camps the US has for refugees have deplorable conditions and that the treatment is so bad that it's comparable to other historic human rights abuses, it's not really pertinent whether we don't cross the bar of 'literally mass-murdering people' currently.

What's happening is unacceptable and it should stop and people acting like the problem is AoC and others comparing them to death camps is... honestly confusing to me, like what are your fucking priorities?
I'm not prioritizing; I can easily agree what's going on is unacceptible and should stop. And when fucking idiots like Cortez equatr them with death camps, it wastes everyone's time.

Instead of looking at the problem as it is, we waste time on her Godwin rhetoric. It's the same shit Trump pulls.

- - - - -

EDIT: Look, you can have your thread back now. I've hammered my point. Go ahead and respond once more if you like, and I'll let it rest so long as you're not asking new information of me to answer.

Maybe it's just that I grew up in the 80s-90s. People didn't talk that way. Despite what a dictionary said, you didn't hear the words "concentration camp" unless the speaker was specifically invoking the holocaust. And I think that's still the case, because it's what Ocasio-Cortez was doing. I'm never going to believe that the U.S. internment camps of WWII or the current detention centers are even in the same genre as the Nazi concentration (death) camps.

But you know what? Hearing accounts of both, I think the current U.S. detention centers seem way worse than the situation in the WWII internment camps, in terms of living conditions. I wish the narrative had veered in that direction instead.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-12-2019 at 04:27 AM..
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  #57932  
Old 07-12-2019, 06:07 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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These aren't even comparable, Genesis. If the Nazi concentration camps resembled the wartime internment camps in the U.S. and other countries, then phrases like "never again" wouldn't exist.

Do you understand that?
I understand that Nazi concentration camps began in 1933, targeting a wide variety of political targets of the Nazi Regime, but the Final Solution only began kicking into gear in 1942. If you look even on Wikipedia's article on Nazi concentration camps, it says that Holocaust scholars distinguish between concentration camps and extermination camps.

The good thing about we can say about the US is that their concentration camps were not part of a programmatic genocide campaign but they did target perceived ethno-group threats. Do you think they make Hallmark cards for that? Thanks for not being as bad as Nazi Germany with your concentration camps? I'm sure Japanese-Americans would love to send the US Government one of those.

But one salient point represented in "never again" is not just about the mass genocide, but also everything that led up to this moment including the mass incarcerations in concentration camps, the separation of families, the targeting of ethno-groups that are described as subhuman threats, and unjust human rights violations defended as being legal.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'm supposed to understand there are people who believe the opposite - people who believe what the U.S. actions now and in WWII are pretty much the same as the systematic genocide perpetuated by Germany in WWII? I should accept that intelligent people have this opinion?
I believe you are supposed to understand that concentration camps are bad, and that both Nazi Germany and the United States utilized them to varying levels of villainy. These things are comparable because they were differing examples of contemporaneous use of state-sanctioned concentration camps.

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I'm not prioritizing; I can easily agree what's going on is unacceptible and should stop. And when fucking idiots like Cortez equatr them with death camps, it wastes everyone's time.
You mean concentration camps.

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Maybe it's just that I grew up in the 80s-90s. People didn't talk that way. Despite what a dictionary said, you didn't hear the words "concentration camp" unless the speaker was specifically invoking the holocaust. And I think that's still the case, because it's what Ocasio-Cortez was doing. I'm never going to believe that the U.S. internment camps of WWII or the current detention centers are even in the same genre as the Nazi concentration (death) camps.
You are equivocating here between "internment camps," "concentration camps," and "death camps."

That said, I grew up in the South where I heard that the Civil War was about states' rights and not slavery. It has not been until more recently that the narrative in the South has really begun shifting to the reality (at least among white southerners): it was about slavery. The point being is that sometimes the truth takes awhile to break through the psychological, cultural, and socio-political barriers. And I think that many have been scared about admitting to the fact that we, the United States of America, who regarded ourselves unequivocally as the "good guys" of WW2, had concentration camps. And admitting that this black spot exists as a dark similiarity between ourselves and Nazi Germany is a tough cookie to crack regardless of whether or not we never had death camps. We never crossed that point, but we walked at least a portion of the road that potentially leads there.

But as I said before, BaronGrackle, you are welcome to ignore the mountain ranges of evidence (primary sources, secondary sources, historians, etc.) that supports the reality that the US Japanese "Internment Camps" were concentration camps. (Including President Roosevelt's own words!) It just makes you another spineless concentration camp denier who is afraid to confront the truth.

Edit: Look, there was even a Ken Burns documentary in 2009 on PBS entitled Manzanar: "Never Again" which was about the US concentration camp. And here we have "Never Again" used in reference outside of the direct context with the Holocaust. So it is not as if this is some sort of fresh narrative shift conspiracy for the sake of Rep. Cortez, especially not a decade-old documentary.

Last edited by Genesis; 07-12-2019 at 06:21 AM..
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:36 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Old 07-12-2019, 10:02 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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This is interesting:

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Keep in mind that one of their functions *by design* is to punish those individuals and families who are detained
Unrelated to his stated topic. But any truth here?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-12-2019 at 10:18 AM..
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  #57935  
Old 07-12-2019, 11:32 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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We are totally fine talking about the conditions of the camps, and drew what to us was an obvious comparison. It is you Baron, who insists on dealing with the semantic issue, this ridiculous purity test standard that if one doesn't use your preferred nomenclature, it disqualifies one from discussing or commenting on the situation. You seem more outraged by what you see is a misappropriated term than you are about human rights abuses.
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  #57936  
Old 07-12-2019, 01:19 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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You seem more outraged by what you see is a misappropriated term than you are about human rights abuses.
Maybe I am.

Related question: are these sites bad BECAUSE the living conditions are so poor? Or are they bad because they exist at all, in that no innocent humans should be kept in a guarded camp, regardless of its living conditions?

Is there such a thing as a "concentration camp" that is not a human rights violation by virtue of existing?
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Old 07-12-2019, 02:09 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Maybe I am.

Related question: are these sites bad BECAUSE the living conditions are so poor? Or are they bad because they exist at all, in that no innocent humans should be kept in a guarded camp, regardless of its living conditions?

Is there such a thing as a "concentration camp" that is not a human rights violation by virtue of existing?
1. Well that's fucked up man.

2. I feel that's not really pertinent.
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Old 07-12-2019, 02:26 PM
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Welp, it just came out that Border Patrol Chief Carla Provost was in fact a member of the infamous secret facebook group.

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When news broke that thousands of current and former Border Patrol agents were members of a secret Facebook group filled with racist, vulgar, and sexist content, Carla Provost, chief of the agency, was quick to respond. “These posts are completely inappropriate and contrary to the honor and integrity I see — and expect — from our agents day in and day out,” Provost said in a statement. “Any employees found to have violated our standards of conduct will be held accountable.”
Oopsie. So much for 'honor and integrity'... Yes, these are the people running the camps, with people's lives including children and babies under their charge. As I said, the dehumanization has already begun. Don't look away.

https://thehill.com/policy/technolog...-agents-report

https://theintercept.com/2019/07/12/...acebook-group/

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...-of-the-group/
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  #57939  
Old 07-12-2019, 02:31 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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1. Well that's fucked up man.

2. I feel that's not really pertinent.
1) Maybe. But words have power.

2) Not pertinent to naming, no. It's only a related topic. If the existence of concentration camps is itself a human rights violation, then the topic of improving their conditions will never reach a satisfying answer. Maybe the answer is that they must be shut down. But then we'd need a just alternative.
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Old 07-12-2019, 02:50 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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1) Maybe. But words have power.

2) Not pertinent to naming, no. It's only a related topic. If the existence of concentration camps is itself a human rights violation, then the topic of improving their conditions will never reach a satisfying answer. Maybe the answer is that they must be shut down. But then we'd need a just alternative.
Dude, we had an alternative, and it was working fine. They got a court date and were released on bond, just like any other petty crime. Conservatives should have been thrilled. Obama was prosecuting and deporting more people than any administration previous. The vast majority were going to their court dates.

There is no justifiable reason for having these camps. At best, it's a garish display and empty symbol of Trump's supposed tough stance on the border and immigration, much like the wall - one that is already having a serious human cost. At worst, it's the precipice of ethnic cleansing. Just so we don't forget, thousands of children have gone missing under the Trump's Border Patrol. I HOPE that this is just a symptom of gross incompetence. But that's a dwindling hope given what continues to come to light about this situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/18/u...reabouts-.html

This is an older story. I don't want to think about how many more children may have disappeared since.

Edit: https://oversight.house.gov/news/pre...y-more-harmful

Here's a report published today by the House oversight committee. The damage that is being done to these children will be permanent. And there was no reason to do it.
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Old 07-12-2019, 04:45 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The cop that murdered that innocent man in the hotel room a while back was rehired so that the department could give him free money for life.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48969432

If you haven't seen the video, I recommend going and finding it. You need to see what our police force is doing and what the "thin blue line" types are defending.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:40 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So. As the Trumptard stumbles around telling natural-born citizen legislators to go back to the countries they came from, do we think Pelosi and the Teen Girl Squad can get over their pissing contest with each other?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...gress.amp.html

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-15-2019 at 06:44 AM..
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:36 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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So. As the Trumptard stumbles around telling natural-born citizen legislators to go back to the countries they came from, do we think Pelosi and the Teen Girl Squad can get over their pissing contest with each other?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...gress.amp.html
I think it's a mistake to characterize the friction between establishment dems and the new generation as a pissing contest, while they do need to work together to counter trump and the repubs, given how the DNC has fucked over Bernie and others they're right to be wary imo.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:24 AM
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Here's my predict. Pelosi and the party elites are waiting until probably summer 2020 to start impeachment because that will be the most strategic disruption to the Trump 2020 campaign. Of course, they can't come out and just say this is their plan because of how obviously cynical and realpolitik it is. Meanwhile the more progressive side of the party tends to reject the political gamesmanship out of hand and believe impeachment should begin the moment you have plausibly impeachable offenses on the table (which means, impeach now!). It's realpolitik vs strict rule of law.

I can see the perspective of both factions here, and honestly, I couldn't say who is correct insofar as which approach has a better chance of defeating Trumpism in 2020.

Edit: I will say that AOC's response to Trump's racist tweets was pretty amazing though. It's obvious why she has the following she does. You might disagree with her policy or doubt her credentials, but her rhetoric is on point. It cuts straight through the noise.

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Last edited by Saranus; 07-15-2019 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:10 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Edit: I will say that AOC's response to Trump's racist tweets was pretty amazing though. It's obvious why she has the following she does. You might disagree with her policy or doubt her credentials, but her rhetoric is on point. It cuts straight through the noise.
I have to agree with you here.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:45 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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My favorite part is she basically dropped "S E E T H I N G" on him. Do you think she goes to /pol/?
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:50 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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My favorite part is she basically dropped "S E E T H I N G" on him. Do you think she goes to /pol/?
Seething is a meme I'm guessing?
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Old 07-16-2019, 05:55 AM
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Here's my predict. Pelosi and the party elites are waiting until probably summer 2020 to start impeachment because that will be the most strategic disruption to the Trump 2020 campaign. Of course, they can't come out and just say this is their plan because of how obviously cynical and realpolitik it is. Meanwhile the more progressive side of the party tends to reject the political gamesmanship out of hand and believe impeachment should begin the moment you have plausibly impeachable offenses on the table (which means, impeach now!). It's realpolitik vs strict rule of law.

I can see the perspective of both factions here, and honestly, I couldn't say who is correct insofar as which approach has a better chance of defeating Trumpism in 2020.
Part of the problem is that the public does not always act in the manner that the impeaching-party expects. Bill Clinton's popularity actually increased as a result of the Republican's impeachment procedings. For someone serving as long as Pelosi, this risk has to be on the back burner of her mind.
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:35 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Part of the problem is that the public does not always act in the manner that the impeaching-party expects. Bill Clinton's popularity actually increased as a result of the Republican's impeachment procedings. For someone serving as long as Pelosi, this risk has to be on the back burner of her mind.
Yeah. If the impeachment doesn't result in a conviction, then the entire campaign season could be wasted, with undecided voters going to the polls thinking, "All the Democrats cared about was impeaching Trump, and he wasn't even guilty."

Right or wrong.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:28 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Unfortunately, there's no way he can be found guilty at this point. Years of blocking federal court appointments (not just SCOTUS seats) has resulted in a stacked judicial branch that doesn't care about the Constitution and will make the president a monarch. There's no real chance of even the blatant violations of the emoluments clause sticking.
The only hope we have is a huge blue wave to remove those justices from their seats and put good ones in their place. Unfortunately, the right is trying to impede democracy at all costs and send us spiraling further into fascism.
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