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  #3901  
Old 02-09-2018, 06:49 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Problem is that a race is a race. It's usually something that you are born into, not something you train or can transform into. Yes, there were two exceptions already: worgen and undead, but both are unwilling curses that had, under special circunstances, taken over large populations of whole kingdoms.

Void elves feel like a small cult of magic scholars. They were a tiny group that suffered a freak accident, and now are trained by a high elf that has studied the Void.
This is a perfect example of gameplay trumps lore.

PC are divided into "Races" for gameplay purposes. Worgen and Forsaken, just like Void Elves aren't technically races. The Worgen curse affects both humans and night elves. The Forsaken, until WoW, could be any race. This was Blizz's way of getting High Elves into the Alliance without them being High Elves. Plus with the Void being the next Big Bad, it makes sense to have some Void-y PCs to play with.

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This raises questions: Can they transform more people? If so, why only elves? Why can't there be void humans or void gnomes joining this "cult"?
Yes, yes they can transform more. They were transformed by the Etherals. The Void can transform anyone. It's just how much of yourself is left after it.

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Also, what exactly are their powers? Worgen and undead are just physical transformations, but void elves seem to be supernatural in ways that should fit a class better than a race. Telogrus has a vibe of being a place of learning and understanding, rather than a racial community. You walk around that place and expect cultists from many races learning about the void there, rather than looking into it and think "ooooh, this is an elven place".
As you saw with Alleria, you can open up portals in walls. As for other powers, probably what a shadow priest can do and what other void using people in game have used.
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  #3902  
Old 02-09-2018, 08:51 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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So the sha aren't as defeated at the end of SoO implied and progress is being made on restoring the Vale. I'm pleasantly surprised they're using a shop mount to actually further old lore.
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  #3903  
Old 02-09-2018, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Are you able to give any details on the story or what else made it into the game?
Nothing else made it into the game,IIRC, but a bit of it was canonized in Chronicle Volume 1. I'll put in bold the bits that are canon, assume everything else is non-canon.

The gist of the story was that most of the Pandarian slaves during the period of the Pandaren revolution were illiterate, but there was a small privileged class of pandaren slaves who were taught to read and write, mostly for clerical work under the mogu warlords.

The Battle of the Summer Fields was the last decisive battle of the revolution, featuring a multi-racial coalition led by Kang, the fist of the First Dawn. By that time, the last Mogu emperor, Lao-Fe, had been killed but the remnants of the Mogu empire held on in a fractured state. Warlord Kao made claim to be the next emperor, ruling the Vale of Eternal Blossoms and taking residence in Mogu Shan Palace.

By the time of the Battle of the Summer Fields, Kang was an old man and he was not expected to live much longer. He took a young monk, Song, under his tutelage. Song was a freed slave who had been taught to read and write, formerly being a bookkeeper for Warlord Kao. Kang had Song write down the 108 Analects of Master Kang between battles, which formed the core of monk teachings in the future. Kao managed to kill Kang during the battle, and Song killed Kao, ending the Pandaren revolution. Kang died before all 108 of his analects were transcribed, and Song refused a position in the new Pandaren government, instead forming the Lorewalkers to promote literacy and chronicle the wisdom of the races of Pandaria


Later, in Legion, I believe, they made it so that Lao-Fe was killed at the end of the revolution and he and Kang killed each other, so I'm not 100% sure how my story fits into canon (the description of Lao-Fe's death is actually pretty similar to how I wrote Kang and Kao fighting each other- literally only now do I realize that the staff I had Kang using was later canonized as Sheilun!). I'd say it's likely to assume that the first lorewalker, Song, fought a Warlord Kao during the revolution, but it wasn't the end of the war.
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  #3904  
Old 02-09-2018, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
So the sha aren't as defeated at the end of SoO implied and progress is being made on restoring the Vale. I'm pleasantly surprised they're using a shop mount to actually further old lore.
One might speculate that perhaps the destruction of Y'shaarj's heart eliminated the threat of new sha manifesting from negative emotions, but any that were still left around from before could remain active until someone directly kills them.
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  #3905  
Old 02-09-2018, 11:36 PM
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Just yesterday I said to myself, "wouldn't it be cool if Zandalari kings were buried with their favourite mounts and we could get those as mounts via archeology." Well, I don't know about the archeology part, but there's a new ground mount that's the mummified pet of ancient Zandalari kings!



Edit:
Oh, and here's Lady Ashvane! (Not to be confused with the nonexistent Ashvale!)

Last edited by Nazja; 02-09-2018 at 11:40 PM..
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  #3906  
Old 02-10-2018, 01:22 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
I mean what is new? More variations of humans which we have 10 of? People can like different things than you.
You misunderstand.

We shouldn't be having people induced with Furry Hysteria after 4 races of them. An extra 5th isn't gonna bring a new wave out from the woodwork. Pretending there's this untapped well or that they aren't already here it just asinine.

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  #3907  
Old 02-10-2018, 01:28 AM
Pepe Stormstout Pepe Stormstout is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post


So the sha aren't as defeated at the end of SoO implied and progress is being made on restoring the Vale. I'm pleasantly surprised they're using a shop mount to actually further old lore.
I was kind of hoping Shu-zen would be a dog Wild God (I'm not obsessed with Wild Gods shut up), but I like this as well.

My main problem with this is that one of Lorewalker Cho's quests in the garrison inn in WoD implied that the Vale had already been restored.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Lessons_of_the_Past
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalker Cho
I have returned! You must have known that a world so rich in history could not keep me away for long!

<Lorewalker Cho chuckles, holding his enormous belly.>

I have perhaps been taking part in too many celebratory feasts, now that the Vale has been cleansed. There is so much to celebrate in Pandaria!
Of course, it's possible that Shu-zen showed up 5 minutes after we left Pandaria and we just haven't heard about him until now for whatever reason (since the first sentence in the mount description is in past tense and it's not stated when the described events took place). I guess one could also argue that "cleansed" in Cho's quest just means removing all of the physical sha corruption from the ground, trees, and water and that repair work (that is, restoring buildings and statues) and killing the very last lingering remnants of sha would be a longer process.
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  #3908  
Old 02-10-2018, 01:48 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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My main problem is that there are no statues at all that could have come to life and have looked like him.
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  #3909  
Old 02-10-2018, 01:51 AM
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I don't get the argument that the Void Elves should be a class. Should the Fel Orcs be a class because they got infused and transformed with fel?

As for Alleria, she is not just a High Elf with mastery over the Void. She's an elf who's been infused and transformed with the Void energies of a fallen Naaru, ie technically a Void Elf. The only difference is that she has mantained her original appearance somehow (out universe, it is clearly because Blizzard was unwilling to change her original appearance), although her Void form is the same as seen in the cinematic.
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  #3910  
Old 02-10-2018, 03:28 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I don't get the argument that the Void Elves should be a class. Should the Fel Orcs be a class because they got infused and transformed with fel?
Fel Orcs just hit harder and feel less pain. Void Elves are portrayed more like Demon Hunters but with Void powers. They should be getting their entire skillset from the Void.
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  #3911  
Old 02-10-2018, 03:52 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
Fel Orcs just hit harder and feel less pain. Void Elves are portrayed more like Demon Hunters but with Void powers. They should be getting their entire skillset from the Void.
I've honestly never gotten the impression that they were portrayed like Demon Hunters. Maybe their philosophies are similar and I can see a connection there, but otherwise they've always seemed more comparable to Undead where they are cursed by some outside magical force that changes their physiology and gain a few benefits from that. (As demonstrated by their racials.)

Now admittedly they willingly went for that taboo magical source and that's why they got cursed in the first place rather than having it forced upon them, but eh semantics.
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  #3912  
Old 02-10-2018, 04:20 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
Fel Orcs just hit harder and feel less pain. Void Elves are portrayed more like Demon Hunters but with Void powers. They should be getting their entire skillset from the Void.

There's an issue with your argument, and that is that the Demon Hunters feel far more like a race than a simple class. They have their physiologue transformed, enough they can no longer be physiologically part of their former race (a recurring theme with hero classes, a human death knight is no longer normal human, he is undead, just a different sort than the Forsaken).

Nonetheless, even the core of your argument is void, for it is not solely about the Fel Orcs, but any transformed race, ranging from the Man'ari Eredar to the Lightforged Draenei. All these fall within the same category.
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  #3913  
Old 02-10-2018, 04:43 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
This is a perfect example of gameplay trumps lore.
Or that bad lore is bad.

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PC are divided into "Races" for gameplay purposes. Worgen and Forsaken, just like Void Elves aren't technically races. The Worgen curse affects both humans and night elves. The Forsaken, until WoW, could be any race. This was Blizz's way of getting High Elves into the Alliance without them being High Elves. Plus with the Void being the next Big Bad, it makes sense to have some Void-y PCs to play with.
Worgen curse and undeath are just physical transformations. Void elf "lore" implies they are way more than that. Also, the ausence of playable non-human worgen and forsaken does not mean they do not exist in lore. Now, why are void elves just elves?

(I do have a possible explanation as to why they are only elves, but it's my head trying to explain canon. I'm still waiting for canon info.)

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Yes, yes they can transform more. They were transformed by the Etherals. The Void can transform anyone. It's just how much of yourself is left after it.
It's implied they can, but never shown nor explained. I'd like to have a definitive answer. It's ridiculous that a new race is available and we don't know the basics about it.

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As you saw with Alleria, you can open up portals in walls. As for other powers, probably what a shadow priest can do and what other void using people in game have used.
Alleria pretty much has asspull powers. Whatever the story demands, she can do, then those powers are forgotten when they are not needed anymore.

So far, she has been able to heal poison, teleport across universal distances, infuse arrows with shadow and blast void energy from her hands. She feels like a (void) mage/ranger hybrid, except that these mage powers are only used when the story demands.

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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
Fel Orcs just hit harder and feel less pain. Void Elves are portrayed more like Demon Hunters but with Void powers. They should be getting their entire skillset from the Void.
^This.

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
There's an issue with your argument, and that is that the Demon Hunters feel far more like a race than a simple class. They have their physiologue transformed, enough they can no longer be physiologically part of their former race (a recurring theme with hero classes, a human death knight is no longer normal human, he is undead, just a different sort than the Forsaken).
Demon hunters are a class. They have their own skill set, and the transformation is part of the training to be able to use those skills.

Void elves feel a lot like that.

Quote:
Nonetheless, even the core of your argument is void, for it is not solely about the Fel Orcs, but any transformed race, ranging from the Man'ari Eredar to the Lightforged Draenei. All these fall within the same category.
No, all of those are just physical augmentations or transformation. An man'ari warrior is just a super-strong draenei. It's not implied that he commands super-powers.

At least with current void elf "lore", it's implied their transformation gives them actual supernatural powers. Except for the defenders, all elves in Telogrus are casters or scholars seeking the void to study its power.

Alleria has asspull powers that she can use when the story demands them. It's implied other void elves are the same, only not on the same level.

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Given that the Kingslayer lore says that Blackrock Foundry existed in the MU, maybe alpha Gorgrond is meant to show how Blackrock Foundry looked in the MU?
I like that they are streamlining the past MU with good parts from AU. I really hope we don't touch AU anymore, and that Gorgrond is just some kind of vision-quest we do during the clan recruitment story.
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  #3914  
Old 02-10-2018, 05:06 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Demon hunters are a class. They have their own skill set, and the transformation is part of the training to be able to use those skills.
Yes, they are a class in-game. My point is that by the way Blizzard presents races in-game, they also feel as much a race as a class. The thing that some of you can't apparently wrap your head around is, races do not equal species in Warcraft. Sometimes, they equal a race trasformed through a certain power infusion and subsequen trasformation (the Lightforged, the Void Elves, the Man'ari Eredar etc), sometimes, they equal cursed beings of a certain race (undead, worgen), sometimes, they equal ethnicities (the Blood Elves, some future allied races apparently), and sometimes, they equal species.

Which is why this whole argument is idiotic to begin with. You (as in those who argue about it) are arguing that the Void Elves should have been a class instead of a race when both these terms have definitions so fluid in Warcraft that water would feel envy.


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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
No, all of those are just physical augmentations or transformation. An man'ari warrior is just a super-strong draenei. It's not implied that he commands super-powers.

At least with current void elf "lore", it's implied their transformation gives them actual supernatural powers. Except for the defenders, all elves in Telogrus are casters or scholars seeking the void to study its power.
Nope. We can clearly see with the Lightforged they do get a different set of racial abilities, one that comes from their transformation. We do not have playable Man'ari, but it is pretty clear they'd have racials different from the Draenei. Not to mention everything that comes with being a demon. So it is absolutely not just physical augmentation.

Last edited by Marthen; 02-10-2018 at 05:10 AM..
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  #3915  
Old 02-10-2018, 05:37 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is online now

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Thing with void elves is that they're mentioned to having new powers that they need to master, and they're all(somehow) all a bunch of scholars that were interested in studying those powers even before their transformation anyway. Not really the case with other races from what I can tell, even Lightforged draenei feel more like they're getting a buff that goes along with their already holy based racials. And demon hunters would be a good argument for void elves being a proper race, except even though they 'feel' like a race, in-game they still have a unique skill-set that justifies their presence; you don't see Illidari blood elf/night elf mages/priests/warriors/hunters etc.
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  #3916  
Old 02-10-2018, 05:42 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Just yesterday I said to myself, "wouldn't it be cool if Zandalari kings were buried with their favourite mounts and we could get those as mounts via archeology." Well, I don't know about the archeology part, but there's a new ground mount that's the mummified pet of ancient Zandalari kings!



Edit:
Oh, and here's Lady Ashvane! (Not to be confused with the nonexistent Ashvale!)
I wish the fat female model was more like Therezane tbh, her concept art just looks better
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  #3917  
Old 02-10-2018, 05:50 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is online now

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Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
Zul got a model.



Also, map titled Gorgrond Orcs, so it's likely the Iron Horde is joining up with our Horde.

gorgrond is the home of the laughing skull clan!they joined the horde, that clan can be an allied race. I like those crazy orcs! are funny
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  #3918  
Old 02-10-2018, 06:06 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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In the future, please remove unnecessary images whenever you quote somebody, out of consideration of mobile users.

Last edited by Nazja; 02-10-2018 at 06:12 AM..
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  #3919  
Old 02-10-2018, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Yes, they are a class in-game. My point is that by the way Blizzard presents races in-game, they also feel as much a race as a class. The thing that some of you can't apparently wrap your head around is, races do not equal species in Warcraft. Sometimes, they equal a race trasformed through a certain power infusion and subsequen trasformation (the Lightforged, the Void Elves, the Man'ari Eredar etc), sometimes, they equal cursed beings of a certain race (undead, worgen), sometimes, they equal ethnicities (the Blood Elves, some future allied races apparently), and sometimes, they equal species.

Which is why this whole argument is idiotic to begin with. You (as in those who argue about it) are arguing that the Void Elves should have been a class instead of a race when both these terms have definitions so fluid in Warcraft that water would feel envy.
Traits that are innate to you = race.
Skills that you learn and master throught training = class.

I see no fluidity there. Except that void elves cross that boundary.

Demon hunters are a class because you train to become a demon hunter. Yes, there's a transformation involved, but it's part of the process to become a demon hunter. Even the steps of their transformation are deeply rooted in conditions to marter their powers. For instance, they have arcane tattoos to help contain the fel power within them, or else they can be destroyed by it.

Lightforged/Undead/Worgen are all conditions that transformed you from an original race to a new one, unnatural one, with new innate abilities.

Void elves could be just that, sure, except that the little lore they have stresses out how they need to keep training and growing in their powers. Their lore feels a lot like the Illidari's, but their gameplay contradicts that. While the lore is constantly saying how you master the void, gameplay has very little to show that. You are instead shooting arrows or conjuring fireballs or swinging swords.

Quote:
Nope. We can clearly see with the Lightforged they do get a different set of racial abilities, one that comes from their transformation. We do not have playable Man'ari, but it is pretty clear they'd have racials different from the Draenei. Not to mention everything that comes with being a demon. So it is absolutely not just physical augmentation.
Are goblins born with rocket belts and rocket launchers? Is a goblin without his belt a different race then? No, the belt is there just to show how goblin culture is all about gadgets and explosives.

It's not like normal tauren are incapable of bull-rushing in lore just because highmountain tauren are the ones with that racial (hell, a normal tauren bull-rushes soldiers in the BfA cinematic).

Racials are just gameplay elements that showcase some skills related to culture and/or physiology of the races.

The difference between Lightforged and Void elves: Nothing in Lightforged lore talks about constant training to master your new Light powers. You were infused with Light. You were empowered by it. You can use that Light in some limited ways, that's it.

Void elf lore is different. It's all about growing more powers in the Void, but those powers are not reflected in-game.
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  #3920  
Old 02-10-2018, 07:15 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
I wish the fat female model was more like Therezane tbh, her concept art just looks better
I'm sorry, but this is bothering me.... Looking at Mr. Harpoon-arm guy there.... how is that guy supposed to walk, especially on things like cobblestoned streets?

(I consider the picture necessary to the post)
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  #3921  
Old 02-10-2018, 07:21 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Except these traits are innate, all void elves have them the moment they undergo their trasformation, training or not. Yes, they might have to train to imrpove them further, but that is absolutely natural for any innate talents. I'd be surprised if the Lightforged did not have to hone their innate skills.

As for the demon hunters, again, you are wrong, because while many of their abilities come directly from training only, many are innate part of their trasformation. There are changes to their physiology, these changes are irreversible, and they make them different from their previous state. And their trasformation gives them traits and skills they possibly couldn't have without it.

But tell me, is this yet another case of trying to trash the whole idea of the void elves because you are obsessed with blonde blue eyed elves? Just that I know if there is even any merit in trying to explain this.

Last edited by Marthen; 02-10-2018 at 07:23 AM..
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:27 AM
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Apparently the drust attacked the human settlers first back in the day. I'd hoped there was some good old fashioned colonial expansionism going on. Gorak Tul and Arom Waycrest singing Savages from Pocahontas. Alas, it was not to be and it's all the drust's fault from the sound of things.

Last edited by Asterisk; 02-10-2018 at 07:29 AM..
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  #3923  
Old 02-10-2018, 07:38 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Apparently the drust attacked the human settlers first back in the day. I'd hoped there was some good old fashioned colonial expansionism going on. Gorak Tul and Arom Waycrest singing Savages from Pocahontas. Alas, it was not to be and it's all the drust's fault from the sound of things.
Honestly I don't consider Drust attacking human settlers settling on their land to be wrong or evil.
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
As for the demon hunters, again, you are wrong, because while many of their abilities come directly from training only, many are innate part of their trasformation. There are changes to their physiology, these changes are irreversible, and they make them different from their previous state. And their trasformation gives them traits and skills they possibly couldn't have without it.
They get the transformation because they are after those skills. They are born natural elves and go throught extensive ritual to become demon hunters.

You are trying to make it sound like they were half-demon first, then train their half-demon skills, when it's the other way around: they train and undergo several transformations to become half-demons. The transformation is part of the process of becoming an illidari demon hunter. That's why they are a class, nothing in them is innate.

Which is very similar to void elf lore.

Quote:
But tell me, is this yet another case of trying to trash the whole idea of the void elves because you are obsessed with blonde blue eyed elves? Just that I know if there is even any merit in trying to explain this.
It's a case of questioning hastily put together lore for a "race" that feels nothing like a race. But feel free to disagree.
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  #3925  
Old 02-10-2018, 07:46 AM
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Eh, Marthen is right.
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