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  #5226  
Old 05-09-2018, 01:29 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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The Light being bad if taken too far is not the problem in theory. The problem is it in execution.

The problem is that Blizzard's form of "the Light taken too far" is to make it the same damn thing as the Old Gods. Instead of coming up with something new, there is no difference between an Old God shoving a tentacle up your ass or a naaru shoving a light up your ass, and they dragged Yrel through the mud to make this story happen.
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  #5227  
Old 05-09-2018, 01:44 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
The Light being bad if taken too far is not the problem in theory. The problem is it in execution.
In a nut shell, this. The Light's always been protrayed as a "neutral force for good", if that makes sense; it doesn't give two shits if what you're using it for is good or not, as long as you THINK you're doing a good and righteous thing, it's going to listen. That's where little Scarlet Crusaders come from. The light being used by an army of dickheads isn't what pisses me off. It's doing it with Draenei.

Like, look, i get it, if there's one current group of major races that has a justified beef with the goddamn Orcs, aside from literally everyone else excluding MAYBE the Tauren, it's the Draenei, prime or not. What're they doing? WORKING WITH THEM at every opportunity. That's the kicker here. The Draenei ARE. NOT. THAT. DUMB. They're not supposed to be. Ever Draenei worth their salt would look at forced lightification and go "uuuuuuuh". Velen might've been a little slow on that but even he raised a little bit of an eyebrow. (Frankly, my head canon is that there was simply not enough time for as well-over-25 000-year old priest to contemplate the sheer IDEA of an evil Naru before Xe'ra was already dead. But that's probably just me liking Velen.) The Lightforged strike me as outlier, and had they used THEM for that i'd have probably bought it. Buuuut nope. They're using the same Draenei that are supposed to be alternate universe versions of PRIME Draenei. Ones that have WORKED with those Orcs and, thank mid-expansion-retcon, lived in peace with them. Going by what we know about these peeps they should be the absolute pacifists. And you turn THESE GUYS INTO LIGHT NAZIS? Really? Really. Seriously. Go fuck a table, Blizzard.
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  #5228  
Old 05-09-2018, 02:00 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I... actually think this is kind of a cool lore development. Yeah some of it sounds balls to the wall bonkers like the prospect of Lightbound Orcs and Garrosh Holyscream, but it's actually a pretty decent way of making Draenei more flawed and not just this extremely boring as fuck race of lawful good tieflings.

And in some respects... I completely understand why they would go this route. It's perfectly understandable that they wouldn't forgive the Iron Horde for past atrocities and seek to try to "tame" them.

I would hope for something to come out of this that ties with the Alliance and offers some intriguing story, but part of me is thinking this is just an excuse to have Light-themed villains after we got sick of wiping out the Scarlet Crusade for the 40 billionth time.
What crimes did they commit to being killed by a group of religious fanatics?
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  #5229  
Old 05-09-2018, 02:07 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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There is a huge difference between old gods and naarus. Old gods drive you fucking crazy naaru are just ultra strict totalitarian warmongering beings.
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Old 05-09-2018, 02:32 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
And yet Turalyon could understand Alleria's choice and even wanted her to not return so Xe'ra wouldn't punish her. If Turalyon was just a drone, he'd comply with Xe'ra's will and forsake Alleria.

Xe'ra was portrayed as a extremist, but that does not mean she's the best representation of the Light. Every single naaru before her was more tolerant and benevolent.

Naaru having actual distinct personalities makes for a way better narrative than saying they are just 100% Light and that's how Light is.

(And I also like the idea that Void Lords may also have different personalities and objectives, and only some (or even just one) of them are behind the Old Gods.)


Does not mean all beings of Light see the same path, thought. Each being believes in a single path, but it does not need to be exactly the same one.


From that to become full-blown fanatics after millenia practicing tolerance sounds very forced to me. They still have leaders like Maladaar, after all. Draenei lifespans are too long to believe a radical change like as something natural.

Some of them going fanatic? Sure, possible. The entire society? No way.


Xe'ra is the only example of this. We had known several naaru before her, and none of them acted like that, which is why this "Light = Totalitarian" angle feels forced.
in any case they could be tolerant only in their strategy to defeat the legion once the legion is out of the way they can try to create a universe under their power. that by the way if any sane person had to choose between the madness and monstrous brutality of the void and the benevolent dictatorship of the naaru would choose the naaru
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  #5231  
Old 05-09-2018, 02:52 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
In a nut shell, this. The Light's always been protrayed as a "neutral force for good", if that makes sense; it doesn't give two shits if what you're using it for is good or not, as long as you THINK you're doing a good and righteous thing, it's going to listen. That's where little Scarlet Crusaders come from. The light being used by an army of dickheads isn't what pisses me off. It's doing it with Draenei.

Like, look, i get it, if there's one current group of major races that has a justified beef with the goddamn Orcs, aside from literally everyone else excluding MAYBE the Tauren, it's the Draenei, prime or not. What're they doing? WORKING WITH THEM at every opportunity. That's the kicker here. The Draenei ARE. NOT. THAT. DUMB. They're not supposed to be. Ever Draenei worth their salt would look at forced lightification and go "uuuuuuuh". Velen might've been a little slow on that but even he raised a little bit of an eyebrow. (Frankly, my head canon is that there was simply not enough time for as well-over-25 000-year old priest to contemplate the sheer IDEA of an evil Naru before Xe'ra was already dead. But that's probably just me liking Velen.) The Lightforged strike me as outlier, and had they used THEM for that i'd have probably bought it. Buuuut nope. They're using the same Draenei that are supposed to be alternate universe versions of PRIME Draenei. Ones that have WORKED with those Orcs and, thank mid-expansion-retcon, lived in peace with them. Going by what we know about these peeps they should be the absolute pacifists. And you turn THESE GUYS INTO LIGHT NAZIS? Really? Really. Seriously. Go fuck a table, Blizzard.
I don't know, I always got the impression draenei despise orcs and would jump at the chance to wipe them out(Velen excluded). In MU, the orcs did genocide the draenei and I can see them never trusting an orc and may want to kill them all to prevent the genocide from ever happening again. I can't remember seeing in-game an orc and draenei talking peacefully(Velen excluded). In the AU, since the genocide didn't happen, the draenei may want to simply neutralize the orcs as a threat by converting them.
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  #5232  
Old 05-09-2018, 02:56 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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So... Sylvanas wants to raise Derek Proudmoore:

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  #5233  
Old 05-09-2018, 03:10 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Man, I love seeing alliance fanbois throwing tantrums as they finally realize that their shit stinks too.

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble but the groundwork for this twist was laid years ago.

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But Yrel carried a dark secret within her. Velen sensed it, and he foresaw that for good or ill, she had a larger role to play.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/characters/yrel
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  #5234  
Old 05-09-2018, 03:12 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
I don't know, I always got the impression draenei despise orcs and would jump at the chance to wipe them out(Velen excluded). In MU, the orcs did genocide the draenei and I can see them never trusting an orc and may want to kill them all to prevent the genocide from ever happening again. I can't remember seeing in-game an orc and draenei talking peacefully(Velen excluded). In the AU, since the genocide didn't happen, the draenei may want to simply neutralize the orcs as a threat by converting them.
I can't really remember any Orcs and Draenei talking to each other, but i also can't really remember any Gnomes talking to Draenei either. Maybe Horde Player bias but you get the idea. Although there may have been some peaceful living-together in Shattrath between Shattar and Mag'har; i'd need to check that.

Point is the Draenei of all people should know how a people can be tricked into serving the Legion - most Draenei probably have family members actively trying to find and kill them. And before the Lightforged arrived the Draenei have always been portrayed as level headed enough to recognize that. (Suuuure, since then the Orcs have basically shat all over the idea that they needed a blood curse to become homicidal maniacs, but that's Blizzard's writing for ya.) I just don't see Draenei harbor that kind of hate. Even their eventual fight against the Legion has always struck me as a thing they HAVE to do rather one they WANT to do.
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  #5235  
Old 05-09-2018, 03:26 PM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
So... Sylvanas wants to raise Derek Proudmoore:

What body? The one burned to ash, blown up and scattered into itty pieces in the sea?

That's somehow more ridiculous than some of the earlier "leaks" of the Forsaken ressing Smilin' Jim's family.
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  #5236  
Old 05-09-2018, 03:27 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
I just don't see Draenei harbor that kind of hate.
There is none. This is pure, fanatical conviction with a complete lack of tolerance for other world views. It's got nothing to do with hate.
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  #5237  
Old 05-09-2018, 03:33 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
The Light being bad if taken too far is not the problem in theory. The problem is it in execution.

The problem is that Blizzard's form of "the Light taken too far" is to make it the same damn thing as the Old Gods. Instead of coming up with something new, there is no difference between an Old God shoving a tentacle up your ass or a naaru shoving a light up your ass, and they dragged Yrel through the mud to make this story happen.
there is really a difference, living in a world where all its inhabitants are insane homicidal monsters is different from living in a great technologically advanced civilization where people live in peace and with lives that last thousands of years, of course that civilization is a theocratic dictatorship
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  #5238  
Old 05-09-2018, 03:41 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
I can't really remember any Orcs and Draenei talking to each other, but i also can't really remember any Gnomes talking to Draenei either. Maybe Horde Player bias but you get the idea. Although there may have been some peaceful living-together in Shattrath between Shattar and Mag'har; i'd need to check that.

Point is the Draenei of all people should know how a people can be tricked into serving the Legion - most Draenei probably have family members actively trying to find and kill them. And before the Lightforged arrived the Draenei have always been portrayed as level headed enough to recognize that. (Suuuure, since then the Orcs have basically shat all over the idea that they needed a blood curse to become homicidal maniacs, but that's Blizzard's writing for ya.) I just don't see Draenei harbor that kind of hate. Even their eventual fight against the Legion has always struck me as a thing they HAVE to do rather one they WANT to do.
Rulkan and Shadowmoon Exiles
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rulkan_(alternate_universe)
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  #5239  
Old 05-09-2018, 03:45 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
I can't really remember any Orcs and Draenei talking to each other, but i also can't really remember any Gnomes talking to Draenei either. Maybe Horde Player bias but you get the idea. Although there may have been some peaceful living-together in Shattrath between Shattar and Mag'har; i'd need to check that.

Point is the Draenei of all people should know how a people can be tricked into serving the Legion - most Draenei probably have family members actively trying to find and kill them. And before the Lightforged arrived the Draenei have always been portrayed as level headed enough to recognize that. (Suuuure, since then the Orcs have basically shat all over the idea that they needed a blood curse to become homicidal maniacs, but that's Blizzard's writing for ya.) I just don't see Draenei harbor that kind of hate. Even their eventual fight against the Legion has always struck me as a thing they HAVE to do rather one they WANT to do.
Ugh, don't remind me about the orcs(I'm really f**cking sick of their, and the hordes, shenanigans). I first read about the draenei in the Warcraft RPG, which described them like I did above. Naturally, the RPG is not canon, but that has still stuck with me. I was hoping someone on here would tell me they're not really like that, as they actually seem pretty chill, from what else I've seen.
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  #5240  
Old 05-09-2018, 07:28 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
The Light being bad if taken too far is not the problem in theory. The problem is it in execution.

The problem is that Blizzard's form of "the Light taken too far" is to make it the same damn thing as the Old Gods. Instead of coming up with something new, there is no difference between an Old God shoving a tentacle up your ass or a naaru shoving a light up your ass, and they dragged Yrel through the mud to make this story happen.
Hrm? The Old Gods and the Naaru have two very different philosophies. Two very different outlooks on life, the universe, and everything.
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  #5241  
Old 05-09-2018, 10:09 PM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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This is just more Blizzard taking what ever scraps they have and throwing it to meet their desired end.

They needed Alliance to have a Clear Bad Guy moment

They needed to futher their whole Light is not entrely Good plot they wanna get off the ground,.

They already gave the Scenario for Lightforged that strangely didn't involve any HYPER LIGHT INDOCTRINATION in it;s process.

So this is the result.


Anyway. I can see how they could get to this extreme after some time passed, but the framing is terrible and they drag another race and character through the mud to get it done.


If it were Draenei seeking vengance, it would have been so much more beleivable and palatable. But instead we get Alt-Light RPer's wet dream
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  #5242  
Old 05-09-2018, 10:39 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I really do think this is Y’rel’s youth. Think about it. She’s the new Religious figurehead for the Draenei. She’s the 2nd Figurehead they’ve had in how many thousands of years? I got the impression she’s quite young. I could see her getting overwhelmed, calling on the Naaru for guidance, and either AU Xe’ra or a like minded Naaru offers to help resolve her problems for her........

At any rate, all of what we get is from an orcish perspective, and it was written for an orcish players benefit. Orc fans are quite sick of the villain bat, so it’s nice to se it going the other way for once. And since it’s being used on a group of Draenei living in an alternative Universe and that will never be playable, it’s really not worth all the fuss.
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  #5243  
Old 05-09-2018, 11:25 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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So what, did they try to make the Draenei more than the blue and better Humans for once?
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  #5244  
Old 05-09-2018, 11:30 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Xe'ra

Illidan

Teldrassil

Lordaeron

Brennadam

And now Yrel.

Go on, keep weeping.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:34 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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This is what the Draenei should have been to begin with (zealots building their holy army by converting the dirty savages of Azeroth). I don't know how how anyone can find what they were until recently remotely interesing (Warcraft Protoss born from a poorly done retcon) for much they took from other species for stories and themes.

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  #5246  
Old 05-10-2018, 03:38 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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AU Draenei are indistinguishable from MU Draenei, right? And there are Auchenari ballistas in the Siege of Lordaeron, which I claimed could be taken as a sign that the Alliance has gone on a recruiting spree on AU Draenor before the Horde even thought of doing so. What if this is the case, and this action is not only the catalyst to the Bronze Dragonflight aiding the Horde but also the Draenei turning on the orcs they had managed to coexist peacefully with since the end of WoD? What if aiding Sylvanas is the only way the dragons can counteract the effect the Alliance's poaching on Draenor would have on the main timeline? What if the Draenei, after hearing from the Alliance that it is once more at war with the Horde, have decided that the only merciful way to permanently pacify the orcs is to proselyte them?

@Those in favour of the execution (and not merely the concept):
Assuming you are primarily a Horde player, as Spidey seems to be, would you also be in favour if the Horde recruited the Iron Horde orcs and the antagonists were the Frostwolves?

@Everyone:
Please be civil.

I've never made use of the ignore function, but I've heard that it's a good way to avoid having to read content you wish to avoid seeing.

Now, I've heard some of you say that simply ignoring someone is disrespectful. I can assure you that the person you aren't ignoring would probably prefer being ignore by you than being antagonized for their posts.
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  #5247  
Old 05-10-2018, 04:25 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
AU Draenei are indistinguishable from MU Draenei, right? And there are Auchenari ballistas in the Siege of Lordaeron, which I claimed could be taken as a sign that the Alliance has gone on a recruiting spree on AU Draenor before the Horde even thought of doing so.
Those balistas are a dead givaway (why would the MU-Draenei chose that name, considering the bad memorys it comes with?)
So, it's either that or the Draenic Inquisition joined the Alliance as a direct reaction to the Mag'har joining the Horde. It's just that due to them being indistinguishable from regular Draenei, as you said, there is no point in making them an allied race.

Quote:
What if this is the case, and this action is not only the catalyst to the Bronze Dragonflight aiding the Horde but also the Draenei turning on the orcs they had managed to coexist peacefully with since the end of WoD? What if aiding Sylvanas is the only way the dragons can counteract the effect the Alliance's poaching on Draenor would have on the main timeline? What if the Draenei, after hearing from the Alliance that it is once more at war with the Horde, have decided that the only merciful way to permanently pacify the orcs is to proselyte them?
But that is not what the datamined dialogue states. The AU-Draenei have been on this crusade for decades. Even that one Mag'har joke alludes to that.
The peace after the defeat of Archimonde didn't last very long.


Quote:
@Those in favour of the execution (and not merely the concept):
Assuming you are primarily a Horde player, as Spidey seems to be, would you also be in favour if the Horde recruited the Iron Horde orcs and the antagonists were the Frostwolves?
No. We've been hit with the villain bat enough already. It's high time the Alliance is put on the recieving end of it.
This is a good start and I hope that, in time, the Draenic Inquisition's zealotry infects the rest of the Alliance's light wielders.
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  #5248  
Old 05-10-2018, 05:32 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
No. We've been hit with the villain bat enough already. It's high time the Alliance is put on the receiving end of it.
This is a good start and I hope that, in time, the Draenic Inquisition's zealotry infects the rest of the Alliance's light wielders.
If I understood you correctly, you do not wish for the Horde to be seen as the villains again. Completely understandable.

But why wish this fate upon the Alliance, instead of just wishing for a permanent return of Thrall's Horde? The Alliance players are not your enemy.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that if the Frostwolves were suddenly shown in a bad light merely for the sake of showing Grommash and his iron Horde in a good light, it would probably not be met with enthusiasm by the Horde players who fought alongside Durotan and Draka during WoD.

Obviously none of Warcraft's races, not even the Draenei, are saints. That the Draenei are portrayed to be morally grey isn't the issue. It's that their morality is merely a chess piece that has been sacrificed for the sake of the Iron Horde. And that directly after Blizzard released a preview for the mag'har and Dark Iron that completely glosses over the fact that they were WoD's main antagonist for the first half of the expansion. Making it seem as if the Horde and Alliance had fought alongside them against the Burning Legion, which is patently false.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:16 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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But why wish this fate upon the Alliance, instead of just wishing for a permanent return of Thrall's Horde? The Alliance players are not your enemy.
I do wish for that. But that would mean peace while Blizzard is hellbent on having another idiotic faction conflict so we can't have that.
And since we can't stop this from going down, I'd rather have the Alliance as the bad guys this time around.
Otherwise it really is just Cata/MoP 2.0.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:45 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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I think what everyone fails to realize yet is that the scenario stinking of fanwank to boot is NOT the worst part. The really REALLY scary part is that it seems like Blizzard are going somewhere with this and seeding future story elements for even MORE potential MU/AU crossovers. YEY!
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