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  #7476  
Old 01-13-2019, 04:02 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So...he punished some tauren for disobeying their chieftain.

That's the nature of things. You don't get to just defy those in charge without repercussion. And when you're one of those people in charge, you don't get to just let disobedience go unpunished and expect to maintain order and control.
The Alliance was invading the barrens, massacring the tauren in the area and firing at the gates of Mulgore.

Baine banished his father's army for defending his lands.

That is flat-out military suicide and telling the tribes he's supposed to protect as High Chieftain, to die.

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Ok, I get it, you don’t like Baine........ and you know what? I have no real interest in defending him at the moment. He put himself on a limb, took a risk, and it seems to have come back to bite him in the tail, and there’s no particular crime on Sylvanas’s part in punishing him in and of itself.

Regardless, the timing is interesting, seeing as how Tauren Heritage Armor comes out in the very next patch, this could be really interesting. Will it involve freeing Baine? Will Sylvanas bring back Magatha Grimtotem? Will the Kalimdor Tauren see more tribal divisions?
I like regular Baine.

I hate Golden Baine.

The tauren heritage armor and the potential Barrens warfront seem to be the last chance to bring back regular Baine.

He even has pre-recorded lines that were never used as seen in the video below.

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Originally Posted by Genesis
It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.

Last edited by JorgeAxe; 01-13-2019 at 04:15 PM..
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  #7477  
Old 01-13-2019, 07:57 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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I showed this to grim on discord. but there is a tauren npc called bluff watcher proudscar or something like that near the area where the horde have deathguards and grunts.

Aside from that they need a 3rd season of pvp stuff (and possibly a 4th) and they reuse the warfront armors for pvp (shame about night elf armor looking like shit.
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  #7478  
Old 01-14-2019, 06:26 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Its just Baine doing something for the Alliance at the expense of the Horde, again.

So in other words, its nothing new.
Good. Fuck Sylvanas' Horde.

And no, Directly Defying a Tyrant IS something new for Baine.
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  #7479  
Old 01-14-2019, 10:18 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So...he punished some tauren for disobeying their chieftain.

That's the nature of things. You don't get to just defy those in charge without repercussion. And when you're one of those people in charge, you don't get to just let disobedience go unpunished and expect to maintain order and control.
Thank you.
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  #7480  
Old 01-14-2019, 11:49 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Fenixhart View Post
Good. Fuck Sylvanas' Horde.
Except Baine punishes the tauren as well.

And his breaking point wasn't Sylvanas killing tauren at the battle for Undercity, it was her raising some random stupid human he doesn't even know.

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Thank You.
A good leader, which Golden Baine is not, doesn't see their people being attacked and then punish them for defending themselves.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #7481  
Old 01-14-2019, 01:17 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Except Baine punishes the tauren as well.

And his breaking point wasn't Sylvanas killing tauren at the battle for Undercity, it was her raising some random stupid human he doesn't even know.
Because a breaking point is, by definition, cumulative.

The events at Undercity shook him, and the addition of Sylvanas blatantly doing unnatural and horrific things without even the excuse of their backs being against the wall with an enemy hammering at the gates constitutes one more nudge into "enough is enough" territory.

Keep in mind that part of how Sylvanas sells her atrocities to the other leaders is by framing it all in the context that the war's already on and the Alliance is bearing down on the Horde. People choke a little bit less on the idea of "necessary sacrifices" when the alternative seems to be swift and immediate destruction.

Conversely, the Derek stuff isn't that. It's not Sylvanas frantically resorting to something terrible with the excuse that it kept the Horde alive for one more day; rather, it's Baine finally getting a front-row seat to the sort of calculated, malicious evil she and her Forsaken have been engaging in behind closed doors for years.

This is the sort of preemptive, spite-driven malice and "Scourge stuff" that players encountered in quests, but the narrative treated as being kept roundly obfuscated or outright hidden from the rest of the Horde proper since Vanilla. It even fits right into Sylvanas not really wanting to be Warchief, because now that they're finally getting to really see how the Forsaken do things, the living races' leaders/representatives in the Horde are increasingly uneasy, disgusted or outright horrified by the sort of creatures they're allied with.

What she did at Undercity she arguably did as a general, and the fog of battle makes for better optics when it comes to doing nasty things to turn the tide. What she's doing with Derek she's doing on her terms, as the Warchief and Banshee Queen. And as she probably feared might happen, having to do this stuff under the scrutiny of her office is exposing a grotesque and sinister picture for the rest of the Horde of what sort of leader she really is. A picture that wasn't entirely evident from that of the undead ranger slinging arrows and laying waste to enemies of the Horde on the battlefield.
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  #7482  
Old 01-14-2019, 01:49 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Because a breaking point is, by definition, cumulative.

The events at Undercity shook him, and the addition of Sylvanas blatantly doing unnatural and horrific things without even the excuse of their backs being against the wall with an enemy hammering at the gates constitutes one more nudge into "enough is enough" territory.

Keep in mind that part of how Sylvanas sells her atrocities to the other leaders is by framing it all in the context that the war's already on and the Alliance is bearing down on the Horde. People choke a little bit less on the idea of "necessary sacrifices" when the alternative seems to be swift and immediate destruction.

Conversely, the Derek stuff isn't that. It's not Sylvanas frantically resorting to something terrible with the excuse that it kept the Horde alive for one more day; rather, it's Baine finally getting a front-row seat to the sort of calculated, malicious evil she and her Forsaken have been engaging in behind closed doors for years.

This is the sort of preemptive, spite-driven malice and "Scourge stuff" that players encountered in quests, but the narrative treated as being kept roundly obfuscated or outright hidden from the rest of the Horde proper since Vanilla. It even fits right into Sylvanas not really wanting to be Warchief, because now that they're finally getting to really see how the Forsaken do things, the living races' leaders/representatives in the Horde are increasingly uneasy, disgusted or outright horrified by the sort of creatures they're allied with.

What she did at Undercity she arguably did as a general, and the fog of battle makes for better optics when it comes to doing nasty things to turn the tide. What she's doing with Derek she's doing on her terms, as the Warchief and Banshee Queen. And as she probably feared might happen, having to do this stuff under the scrutiny of her office is exposing a grotesque and sinister picture for the rest of the Horde of what sort of leader she really is. A picture that wasn't entirely evident from that of the undead ranger slinging arrows and laying waste to enemies of the Horde on the battlefield.
Baine literally never said a word about any of the stuff that happened to the tauren, Sylvanas killed. Its not cumulative, the writers are actively ignoring it.

What she did to Derek was nothing new, she did exactly the same to Valentine and sent him to his death, nothing from Baine. Yet Derek and not that or any of the terrible stuff happening to the tauren is the only thing that gets an action from Baine causing him to kill more Horde soldiers.

Since Golden got her mitts on him, Baine has been turned into an Alliance character in all but name and has sabotaged the tauren’s survival, this has made it very difficult for the player base on the Horde to get behind him at all.

What makes this more stupid besides that players have been complaining about Golden "I hate the Horde and love the Alliance" Baine for years, is that Derek should've been bloated ash to begin with.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #7483  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:10 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Baine literally never said a word about any of the stuff that happened to the tauren, Sylvanas killed. Its not cumulative, the writers are actively ignoring it.
A person doesn't need to be vocal about every single thing that accumulates to the point in which they break. That's some reaching right there.
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  #7484  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:14 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
A person doesn't need to be vocal about every single thing that accumulates to the point in which they break. That's some reaching right there.
The thing is this is the second time this has has happened.

Tauren town is burnt when only civilians are attacked, Baine says it was a military target.

Alliance military fort is attacked, Baine flips his shit.

Since Golden, Baine has become an Alliance character in all but name and few on Horde give a shit about him as a result.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #7485  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:23 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I'm pretty underwhelmed by Baine's characterisation and where they've taken his story but I don't think it's a huge betrayal of his character or anything.

There was clearly tension with Sylvanas during the Battle of Lordaeron, but Sylvanas basically pacified him with 'you can go out there and die with him or help me save this losing battle here.'

I'm not sure I loved the way that scene played out either to be honest, but in context it worked all right. (Those scenes are helped by the fact that the pacing/momentum of the action is really, really good in Battle for Lordaeron.)

Honestly seeing him superseded with Magatha taking over the Tauren tribes would be kind of interesting. I'm not sure how that'd work, or how all of this would interact, though. But given that back in classic there was supposed to be a connection between the Grimtotem and the Forsaken.
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  #7486  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:44 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Baine is basically acting like sylvanas dog and sylvanas has him on a leash, only in 8.1.5 he barks some at his owner.

so she punishes him.
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  #7487  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:07 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I'm pretty underwhelmed by Baine's characterisation and where they've taken his story but I don't think it's a huge betrayal of his character or anything.

There was clearly tension with Sylvanas during the Battle of Lordaeron, but Sylvanas basically pacified him with 'you can go out there and die with him or help me save this losing battle here.'

I'm not sure I loved the way that scene played out either to be honest, but in context it worked all right. (Those scenes are helped by the fact that the pacing/momentum of the action is really, really good in Battle for Lordaeron.)

Honestly seeing him superseded with Magatha taking over the Tauren tribes would be kind of interesting. I'm not sure how that'd work, or how all of this would interact, though. But given that back in classic there was supposed to be a connection between the Grimtotem and the Forsaken.
Magatha is too evil and amoral, she killed Cairne and caused Baine to replace him and turn into that...thing in the first place.

If the original Baine is really dead and gone, permanently replaced by that human in tauren's clothing, I think Cairne's second in command, *looks it up*, Tagar would be a good character.

For minor characters, someone like Gann would be nice, moral, but willing to strike back when angered. When someone messes with a tauren, they get the horns.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #7488  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:42 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Anyone else considering that maybe the player choices that Horde has is a veiled poll for Blizzard to decide the future of the Horde. Not the end of this war per se, but what the Horde will be by the end of it.
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  #7489  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:36 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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I con't think that they're NOT collecting data and statistics on that. If or how they use it I'm less sure of.
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  #7490  
Old 01-15-2019, 06:13 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I think they're using that data to determine future expansions.

There are player choices with interactions regarding N'zoth as well (keeping his gift permanently or getting rid of it).

That means to me two archetypes: "noble-spirited" and "reckless".

Sylvanas. N'zoth. Power. Destruction. Burning sacred places. Obliterating the Alliance.

Noble-spirited. Away from corruption. Values. Saving lives. Winning the war with minimum casualties.

One could easily think on expansion thematics that would mostly please group A over group B, and vice-versa.
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  #7491  
Old 01-15-2019, 08:15 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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So wait, this “Gift of N’zoth” , how does it work for Horde? Do they have an equivalent to Brother Pike? Does Zelling remove it (before getting rolled up)?
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  #7492  
Old 01-15-2019, 10:35 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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So wait, this “Gift of N’zoth” , how does it work for Horde? Do they have an equivalent to Brother Pike? Does Zelling remove it (before getting rolled up)?
they go to talanji instead.

And the choices that are there are there as a niche, or something like that, it wont have any major impact on the story in anyway, I mean sure i get where you are coming from with this. But I doubt it. I doubt they are that stupid to let the fans have any impact on the story.

aside from that the story is probably set in stone.
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  #7493  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:29 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Anyone else considering that maybe the player choices that Horde has is a veiled poll for Blizzard to decide the future of the Horde. Not the end of this war per se, but what the Horde will be by the end of it.
Oh they absolutely are, which is dumb because it polls alts, people who just click first option / don't care aboit lore, etc, all the same
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  #7494  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:38 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Oh they absolutely are, which is dumb because it polls alts, people who just click first option / don't care aboit lore, etc, all the same
Neither Baine nor Sylvanas are characters the Horde players can get behind as well.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #7495  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:52 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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  #7496  
Old 01-15-2019, 08:51 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Magatha is too evil and amoral, she killed Cairne and caused Baine to replace him and turn into that...thing in the first place.

If the original Baine is really dead and gone, permanently replaced by that human in tauren's clothing, I think Cairne's second in command, *looks it up*, Tagar would be a good character.
Magatha is too evil and amoral? That sounds perfect for Sylvanas. Especially if she wants to install her as a puppet.

And eh, how much characterisation did Baine really have before this expansion? He was in one questline in Cataclysm very, very briefly and I think he had small roles in Legion & Mists of Pandaria?

I guess in the novels, but most of those were written by Golden.
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  #7497  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:04 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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What puppet though? To have a puppet with real power over others, it has to be someone they'll willingly follow, and there's literally no reason for any of the tauren to obey Magatha and every reason for them to want her dead. She's not just too evil and amoral; she outright murdered most of the tauren elders of Thunder Bluff in their sleep, after which her tribe continued attacking and killing the tauren of every other tribe in Mulgore, Stonetalon and the Thousand Needles.

Being a bad person is one thing, but her actions basically made her a traitor to the entire confederation of tauren tribes, including technically her own (though the Grimtotems seemingly don't know she was behind helping the player wipe them out in the Thousand Needles so they're apparently still loyal.) Making her leader would be like Anduin deciding to put a resurrected Arthas in charge of the Alliance's humans. It would make zero sense for there to not be an immediate and violent revolt.

Then again, I supposed it would "work" if accompanied by the same sort of nonsensical writing that had the dwarves of Ironforge inexplicably not batting an eye when an invading army of Dark Irons waltzed into their capital unopposed and started abusing everyone without consequence just because Moira was with them.

But barring that, the only tauren I could see following Magatha are her own tribe. And maybe some of the tauren "cousins," i.e. the taunka or yaungol, as like the Grimtotem they seem more aggressive and prone to respecting power above anything else than the tribes of Highmountain or Thunder Bluff are.

Last edited by ARM3481; 01-15-2019 at 09:21 PM..
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  #7498  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:48 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Magatha is too evil and amoral? That sounds perfect for Sylvanas. Especially if she wants to install her as a puppet.

And eh, how much characterisation did Baine really have before this expansion? He was in one questline in Cataclysm very, very briefly and I think he had small roles in Legion & Mists of Pandaria?

I guess in the novels, but most of those were written by Golden.
I'm talking about before Golden messed him up with Tides of War.

His original quests and cut lines in Cataclysm, which showed him as loyal to the Horde and not letting the Alliance walk over the tauren.

Of course, if that Baine is gone, I guess we'll just get a new tauren leader.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #7499  
Old 01-16-2019, 04:31 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Weekly PVP Reward changes coming in Season 2: when the weekly reward is an Azerite armor piece, players choose between one of four options. When the weekly reward is not an Azerite piece, trinket, or weapon, players choose between two gear slots

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...ins-january-22

Blizzard has released an update for the PTR that will reduce the amount of data needed to install the WoW PTR to 2.46 GB when World of Warcraft is already installed.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=289770/...eady-installed
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Old 01-16-2019, 09:57 PM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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I agree with ARM about the breaking point analogy but Jorge isn't completely wrong either. Baine has been depicted extremely poorly as a leader up until now. It wouldnt have been a lot to ask that Baine at least actually said something in the many times past where shits happened he wasn't on board with, even just to the players if not the Warchief. Tel'drassil being a pretty fucking big one that was within this expansion.

That all being said, its hardly a problem unique to him. BFA's worst storytelling failure is probably is the lack of any subtlety or dissent in the huge factional shifts.
Its fucking dumb that Saurfang is literally alone in his defection from all thats happened in the Horde. Its even more insulting when characters who left the old Horde for less like Rexxar are apparently fully onboard with the current direction, without a hint of reservation. No-one bats an eye now, not even so much as so background npc chatter about not being 100% on board with the current manifesto but, if Mops history holds as it has so far, the moment the patch comes for Sylvanas to be toppled (and it will, don't kid yourself) there will suddenly and inexplicable be a huge swell of rebellion supporters who never uttered so much as a line against her beforehand all chomping at the bit for her downfall.
The Alliance isn't even much better. God-king Anduin assuming an unearned mantle without a hint of dissent is hardly decent storytelling either...

Overall its artificial and extremely lazy writing and it wouldn't even be difficult to fix. Some orc npcs talking behind a Forsakens back, a Night Elf refusing a humans orders maybe a worldquest to put down some Tauren who killed their commanding officer because he sacked a village including women and children. You could even throw in a choice after beating them down low health to kill them for their treachery or consider them "reprimanded" for their "crimes" and let them go.

A "Morally Grey" story isn't just one orc getting pissed and hiking out to a swamp to brood, its about showing the ripple effects across the board, ideally without just throwing past characterization into the trash (looking at you Nightborne).
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