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Old 08-13-2016, 04:47 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't hurt anyone but myself by doing it. Why is it bad?
You could be like that German guy who answered an ad online about being eaten by a cannibal. He consented to let someone else eat him.
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Old 08-13-2016, 05:04 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
You diminish the whole of humanity.
That's a moral judgment on a lifestyle choice that doesn't harm you.
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  #45553  
Old 08-13-2016, 05:29 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I have been needing a new testing menial, so you're welcome to visit the application office, Mert.









In all seriousness, my issue is less with the morality and more with the lack of ability to place the necessary checks to prevent abuse of the system. For one thing, it'd be necessary to ascertain whether it's an actual lifestyle choice, or it's the result of someone being pressured into it through financial pressure, threats, psychological pressure, etc. There's too much motivation to abuse a system of voluntary indentured servants (let's call 'em VISos) to not have such checks. However, the cost for such extensive checks done by a reliable agency would be ridiculously high, and even then it'd almost certainly result in a system that's unacceptably easily circumvented. Assuming there'd be way around that, to make sure it's an actual, 100%, legit lifestyle choice, and that there were also some guarantees in place so that VISos could ensure it was the right choice? And some rules about how to ensure that Visos-born children do not grow up in an unacceptably detrimental environment? If all those issues were magically solved by the invention of OMNISCIENTRON 9000? It makes me uneasy, but I think I'd have to side with the desired rights of the voluntary indentured servitude crowd.

Last edited by ijffdrie; 08-13-2016 at 05:34 PM..
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  #45554  
Old 08-13-2016, 05:41 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
I don't hurt anyone but myself by doing it. Why is it bad?
Can you get out of it ?
Are you sane and able to take that decision ?
Is taking this decision not a sign that you cannot take care of your self interest ?
Does your action affects others ?
Do we as a society want to limit freedom of things we think dumb and abhorrent ?
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  #45555  
Old 08-13-2016, 05:44 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Only in Obongo's America do we have white cucks selling themselves as slaves to Dindus and Muzzies.
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  #45556  
Old 08-13-2016, 05:58 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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You diminish the whole of humanity.
So do fags though if that's the case.
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  #45557  
Old 08-13-2016, 06:49 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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So do fags though if that's the case.
I'd say you diminish humanity with your troglodytic musings, but I'm still not sure you aren't a bot.
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Old 08-13-2016, 07:05 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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So do fags though if that's the case.
What are your thoughts on interracial dating? Say a half-white half-Asian person. They're the two highest scoring IQs, so wouldn't they make a super baby?
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  #45559  
Old 08-13-2016, 07:37 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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whelp, now we got one dead Imam.
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  #45560  
Old 08-13-2016, 07:48 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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What are your thoughts on interracial dating? Say a half-white half-Asian person. They're the two highest scoring IQs, so wouldn't they make a super baby?
Sure. As long as their families are high enough any kids should fall to their family means.

As for Iman shot:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.2749901

>blame Trump
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  #45561  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:09 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
That's a moral judgment on a lifestyle choice that doesn't harm you.
If you think whether a society allows slaves or not doesn't affect EVERYONE IN THAT SOCIETY then you're wrong.
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Old 08-13-2016, 08:23 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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If you think whether a society allows slaves or not doesn't affect EVERYONE IN THAT SOCIETY then you're wrong.
The same could be said for a number of issues you oppose. None of you have given real counters to me being allowed to sell myself into slavery because the arguments against are often the same arguments to support legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, and a number of other contentious social issues that in theory do not really harm anyone but the person (or people) involved in them. Subjective morality legislation leaves you in that position.

Now, I do not actually support being able to sell myself into slavery because slavery is wrong based on what I believe to be objective morality. This belief is back up by my (limited) religious faith and the basis for modern western thought. Subjective morality does not lead to moral people. While I know that you are hung up on the slavery part of it and the Republican is hung up on the gay marriage part of it, this applies to all laws.

Basically, I argued this because I don't like subjective morality and wanted to make point as to why it is bad and the live and let live philosophy of many people in the western world is bad.

Last edited by Mertico; 08-13-2016 at 08:25 PM..
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  #45563  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:50 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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The same could be said for a number of issues you oppose. None of you have given real counters to me being allowed to sell myself into slavery because the arguments against are often the same arguments to support legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, and a number of other contentious social issues that in theory do not really harm anyone but the person (or people) involved in them. Subjective morality legislation leaves you in that position.

Now, I do not actually support being able to sell myself into slavery because slavery is wrong based on what I believe to be objective morality. This belief is back up by my (limited) religious faith and the basis for modern western thought. Subjective morality does not lead to moral people. While I know that you are hung up on the slavery part of it and the Republican is hung up on the gay marriage part of it, this applies to all laws.

Basically, I argued this because I don't like subjective morality and wanted to make point as to why it is bad and the live and let live philosophy of many people in the western world is bad.
I thought ijffdrie's argument was a pretty strong one. Slavery is a system that lends itself to abuse. Granted, he added a wrinkle to the argument by talking about a hypothetical situation in which the abuse could be accurately ascertained and addressed.
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  #45564  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:52 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The difference is gay people wanting the basic rights to marry and not be fired for their orientation are not equivalent to someone wanting to sell themself into slavery.

Because one is an orientation and the other is something done because people are either stupid, desperate, or lazy.
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  #45565  
Old 08-13-2016, 08:55 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
The difference is gay people wanting the basic rights to marry and not be fired for their orientation are not equivalent to someone wanting to sell themself into slavery.

Because one is an orientation and the other is something done because people are either stupid, desperate, or lazy.
Yeah, I'm also inclined to think that homosexuality can be genetic (though as it becomes accepted, the average person may be more likely to take a fluid approach, even if only from curiosity).
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  #45566  
Old 08-13-2016, 09:10 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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The difference is gay people wanting the basic rights to marry
"basic rights"

I don't see in the Constitution where fags must be allowed to marry.


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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
and not be fired for their orientation
If you can lose your job for going wayciss then I don't see the issue with firing fags.

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Because one is an orientation and the other is something done because people are either stupid, desperate, or lazy.
Being a kiddy hunter is also an "orientation."
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  #45567  
Old 08-13-2016, 10:31 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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I thought ijffdrie's argument was a pretty strong one. Slavery is a system that lends itself to abuse. Granted, he added a wrinkle to the argument by talking about a hypothetical situation in which the abuse could be accurately ascertained and addressed.
It's strips people of their humanity and puts them on the same level as animals, which people are not equal to. There is something that sets us apart from other animals.

Quote:
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The difference is gay people wanting the basic rights to marry and not be fired for their orientation are not equivalent to someone wanting to sell themself into slavery.

Because one is an orientation and the other is something done because people are either stupid, desperate, or lazy.
Why? Both are contracts between individuals and the government. Basic rights are totally arguable.
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  #45568  
Old 08-13-2016, 10:43 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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It's strips people of their humanity and puts them on the same level as animals, which people are not equal to. There is something that sets us apart from other animals.
What would you argue that sets us apart? Asking out of curiosity.

I do think that secular society has never satisfactorily answered the question as to where morals come from, and that the question is too often swept under the rug.

That said, I'm also someone who finds it difficult to believe in a deity. It's possible that morality is illusory, but I do not think it is to society's benefit that this become widely accepted. This is also why I think religion is beneficial for society, which makes me a bit of a hypocrite since I myself am not convinced of religion's veracity.
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  #45569  
Old 08-13-2016, 11:19 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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What would you argue that sets us apart? Asking out of curiosity.

I do think that secular society has never satisfactorily answered the question as to where morals come from, and that the question is too often swept under the rug.

That said, I'm also someone who finds it difficult to believe in a deity. It's possible that morality is illusory, but I do not think it is to society's benefit that this become widely accepted. This is also why I think religion is beneficial for society, which makes me a bit of a hypocrite since I myself am not convinced of religion's veracity.
Either our immortal soul or some level of consciousness.

As for where our morality comes from its either from a creator deity or some form of higher enlightenment (Buddhism-esque). To me there are no real secular answers for the origins of morality. If it is something naturally imbued in all people then how did it get there?
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  #45570  
Old 08-13-2016, 11:26 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I wonder if the new overtime rules for salaried positions will ever apply to the military because many people work more than 40 hours especially on deployments. I really don't have much faith that it will.
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Old 08-13-2016, 11:31 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Either our immortal soul or some level of consciousness.

As for where our morality comes from its either from a creator deity or some form of higher enlightenment (Buddhism-esque). To me there are no real secular answers for the origins of morality. If it is something naturally imbued in all people then how did it get there?
Interesting.

The morality could have gotten there because there are evolutionary advantages for such behavior. While it might reduce a single organism's likelihood of survival, it increases the group's.

Of course, this wouldn't actually be morality. It'd just be a survival technique. As such, it could be discarded if it ever became inconvenient (which is a rather frightening prospect).

If you don't mind my saying, such a Darwinian approach actually somewhat matches your relative indifference toward starvation and deprivation in parts of the world outside of the West. Basically, putting one group over another (as opposed to more universalist values which might prioritize the moral aspect).

So I would say that there is a secular answer, but it's unsatisfactory and essentially says morality exists only as a cover for survival.
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  #45572  
Old 08-14-2016, 12:50 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Interesting.

The morality could have gotten there because there are evolutionary advantages for such behavior. While it might reduce a single organism's likelihood of survival, it increases the group's.

Of course, this wouldn't actually be morality. It'd just be a survival technique. As such, it could be discarded if it ever became inconvenient (which is a rather frightening prospect).

If you don't mind my saying, such a Darwinian approach actually somewhat matches your relative indifference toward starvation and deprivation in parts of the world outside of the West. Basically, putting one group over another (as opposed to more universalist values which might prioritize the moral aspect).

So I would say that there is a secular answer, but it's unsatisfactory and essentially says morality exists only as a cover for survival.
Well, the West is my 'tribe' or my 'team'. Why would I root for Team China against Team West or the Mets against the Cubs? Just doesn't make much sense. It's social suicide in the worst case.

However, if we evolved our morality to survive then we should look at what has lead to survive and not what sounds good in the current year. Is that not the logical stance on it? The smart stance?
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  #45573  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:12 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Well, we already enslave things, animals. And some of those we keep in cages or kill are pretty damn smart. Not sure if testing things on primates is still a thing, but we do keep them in cages in zoos. Japanese hunt cetaceans, we keep very smart birds in very small cages, and incredibly intelligent animals like pigs are slaughtered for food.

And if the justification here is "they are not smart/conscious as we are" then what happens when science improves our own intellect and bodies. Does it then become okay to enslave non-enhanced Homo Sapiens? Especially if they are clones made for the purpose? What about AI, does it merit rights? Probably, if it asks for them, but what if it doesn't care? And of course the ultimate slippery slope, when in some distant future transhumans meet unimproved humans will they see them as persons, how will they treat them?

If we go the other route and proclaim smart animals as persons worth protecting, the "smart" immediately becomes a hiccup. How smart do they need to be to pass? If experiencing suffering is the criteria then everything more complex than a sponge or similar filter feeders is out. And when we consider even plants react poorly to being cut (unsurprisingly) by releasing chemicals that make other plants react in preparation of danger. So what are we left with, some artificial paste foods, maaaybe cloned meat?

As always the answer is probably in the middle, some exploitation and some compassion will always exist. I personally think cloned meat may well be the point when animal cruelty concerns outweigh our selfish desires, at least for most people. Despite clearly reacting poorly to being eaten () I don't plant rights will get much traction, so plants and cloned meat it is. As for slaves, probably only robotic servants who will be obviously built not to care about being servants.
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Old 08-14-2016, 05:00 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Morality, from a secular standpoint, is shared desire for protection, balanced with a desire for freedom. Most people don't want to be killed, so it's been decided that killing is morally wrong. Most people don't want to be robbed, so it's been decided that robbing is morally wrong. Most people don't want to have people get angry at them, but that desire does not outweigh most people's desire to get angry at others, so it's been decided it's moral to get angry at people as long as you have a reason.

This is of course a simplification. There's always things like culture, values getting associated with specific parts of society, people enforcing their will through strength until that will becomes part of culture, etc.

Basically, "I'd rather live in a society where I'm not allowed to kill rather than live in a society where others can kill me".

Last edited by ijffdrie; 08-14-2016 at 05:03 AM..
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  #45575  
Old 08-14-2016, 08:13 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Defending slavery in 2016 lul

Vilifying African slavery while defending American slavery in 2016 lul
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