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  #4226  
Old 01-09-2016, 05:19 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I just saw the trailer for Kung Fu Panda 3. It made me cringe so hard.
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  #4227  
Old 01-09-2016, 05:39 PM
Shadowsong Shadowsong is offline

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Indeed... I was so insanely hyped to see Infinite lore.

Anyone know if there will be Infinite lore on Chronicles? There's still a shitton of stuff unanswered. And I'm eager to know how Nozdormu will finally fall to madness.
I don't think it will in the first volume, it gets the early history of Azeroth up until the First War.

Probably the second or third volume. Second volume based on tweets is first war and after+orc/draenei lore. I'm sure everything will be covered though by the time they are all out.
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  #4228  
Old 01-09-2016, 08:44 PM
Veleth95 Veleth95 is offline

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So assuming we were actually able to kill C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, would that mean we unintentionally screwed ourselves over considering when Y'shaarj died he created the Sha? And if they did spawn "sha" of their own, how do you think they'd manifest?

EDIT
Also while I'm on about Old Gods, could the reason that N'Zoth wanted to create the naga be that his race of insectoid pawns got wiped out when Ny'alotha sunk?

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  #4229  
Old 01-20-2016, 09:09 AM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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What's the deal with Blood Magic? Why are the Bleeding Hollow in particular so obsessed with it? Trying to figure this out for a future RP.
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  #4230  
Old 01-20-2016, 01:21 PM
Veleth95 Veleth95 is offline

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What's the deal with Blood Magic? Why are the Bleeding Hollow in particular so obsessed with it? Trying to figure this out for a future RP.
Well traditionally blood has a sort of innate power to it. Blood magic seems to take advantage of this and use it in order to either empower individuals or a particular spell. This can be seen where blood magic is used to roid up orcs and trolls, it's probably unlocking that hidden power and making it manifest physically despite a loss in intelligence.

As far as why the Bleeding Hollow are so obsessed with it I'm not entirely sure. It could be the same logic that the Shattered Hand use in cutting off limbs, where the drawing of blood and the pain associated with it is symbolically important. There's also the fact that pretty much everything in Tanaan seemed to be pointy even before the Horde got there, so it's entirely possible that if you weren't paying attention you'd be bleeding a lot just from living there.
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Old 01-20-2016, 07:22 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Well traditionally blood has a sort of innate power to it. Blood magic seems to take advantage of this and use it in order to either empower individuals or a particular spell. This can be seen where blood magic is used to roid up orcs and trolls, it's probably unlocking that hidden power and making it manifest physically despite a loss in intelligence.

As far as why the Bleeding Hollow are so obsessed with it I'm not entirely sure. It could be the same logic that the Shattered Hand use in cutting off limbs, where the drawing of blood and the pain associated with it is symbolically important. There's also the fact that pretty much everything in Tanaan seemed to be pointy even before the Horde got there, so it's entirely possible that if you weren't paying attention you'd be bleeding a lot just from living there.
Out-of-universe, I'm pretty sure the reason is simply that the clan was called Bleeding Hollow. WoD clans just seem to pick a single theme and take it to the extreme.
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  #4232  
Old 01-20-2016, 07:55 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It's also possible that the chieftains sacrificing a part of themselves that isn't replaceable - their eye - to fuel special magic could have arisen from more generalized practices of utilizing a renewable bodily resource like for the more common rituals.

The nearest parallel I can think of is the trolls, who also frequently use blood and myriad other body parts as foci and binding agents in their magic. So perhaps the Bleeding Hollow are actually practicing a primitive form of voodoo, with the ancestral spirits being their "loas" and the control of blood globules being a crude precursor to the manner in which trolls collect and manipulate mojo.
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  #4233  
Old 01-20-2016, 07:58 PM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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Well traditionally blood has a sort of innate power to it. Blood magic seems to take advantage of this and use it in order to either empower individuals or a particular spell. This can be seen where blood magic is used to roid up orcs and trolls, it's probably unlocking that hidden power and making it manifest physically despite a loss in intelligence.

As far as why the Bleeding Hollow are so obsessed with it I'm not entirely sure. It could be the same logic that the Shattered Hand use in cutting off limbs, where the drawing of blood and the pain associated with it is symbolically important. There's also the fact that pretty much everything in Tanaan seemed to be pointy even before the Horde got there, so it's entirely possible that if you weren't paying attention you'd be bleeding a lot just from living there.
Thanks for this. Not everyone was pleased with the aesthetic changes in WoD, I know, but DMs don't really have the luxury of picking and choosing.... In-game, anyways.

That said, I really dig the changes made to Kilrogg's clan. Something a little scary about orcs who, rather than outright killing you, are going to drag you to a special little altar and bleed you out slowly over time.
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  #4234  
Old 01-20-2016, 08:07 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Honestly I didn't have too much difficulty with the ramping up of such themes with the clans, but...they really didn't try very hard to fit a lot of it into the existing themes.

I'd have liked to see some hints of just how the Shadowmoon astrological spiritualism, the Bleeding Hollow blood magic, and even the Blackrocks' cultural militarism had synced with their respective shamanistic practices before they joined the Iron Horde.

Instead it just came across like they did all of those things instead of shamanism (and given their backstory, the Shattered Hand probably weren't a clan long enough to have their own spiritual traditions one way or another), with only the Frostwolves and the Warsongs having ever really possessed the traditions and practices associated with shamanism.
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  #4235  
Old 01-20-2016, 08:11 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Honestly I didn't have too much difficulty with the ramping up of such themes with the clans, but...they really didn't try very hard to fit a lot of it into the existing themes.

I'd have liked to see some hints of just how the Shadowmoon astrological spiritualism, the Bleeding Hollow blood magic, and even the Blackrocks' cultural militarism had synced with their respective shamanistic practices before they joined the Iron Horde.

Instead it just came across like they did all of those things instead of shamanism (and given their backstory, the Shattered Hand probably weren't a clan long enough to have their own spiritual traditions one way or another), with only the Frostwolves and the Warsongs having ever really possessed the traditions and practices associated with shamanism.
I always thought it might have been interesting if certain clans had been influenced by the practices of other races. As in, perhaps some of the Shadowmoon's dark shamanism had stemmed from contact with arakkoa shadow magic.
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  #4236  
Old 01-20-2016, 08:55 PM
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I always thought it might have been interesting if certain clans had been influenced by the practices of other races. As in, perhaps some of the Shadowmoon's dark shamanism had stemmed from contact with arakkoa shadow magic.
I like that, Astrological shamanism could also have stemmed from having to deal with the Sun based High Arakkoa to some extent.
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  #4237  
Old 01-20-2016, 10:14 PM
Kromash Kromash is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I always thought it might have been interesting if certain clans had been influenced by the practices of other races. As in, perhaps some of the Shadowmoon's dark shamanism had stemmed from contact with arakkoa shadow magic.
That's interesting.

I'd say the presence of the dark star was the main reason they started building their dark shamanism and void magic. From what I understood (I haven't played the Shadowmoon quests, sorry), the Shadowmoon were mostly a very shamanistic clan at first, but K'ara's fall made them try to harness its power and go to the voidy-dark-shamanism route. So maybe the Arakkoa played a part in it too, since the Spires of Arak aren't really far from Shadowmoon, but the Dark Star was probably their main source - considering they only started practicing dark shamanism after the Draenei's arrival, and that's what I suppose happened.
(The voidtalon mount actually adds something to this, since the Dark Star actually had an impact on those birds)

The Bleeding Hollow are a hard topic tho. The only info we have is that they're a really primal (cannibalistic native american/african tribe style) clan but I didn't find anything on how they learned that type of (actually, pretty unique) blood magic... I wish there was an entity of sorts that blessed them with that power, something like Trolls' Loa, that would be simple and interesting.

I think the Blackrock is the most simple. Maybe crafting, smithing and armoring was already a big part of their clan, but obviously in a minor scale. If you consider the Blackhand comic, they were indeed a very resourceful (armor and weapon wise) clan and probably were known for being great blacksmiths (they did forge one of the most important hammers of Warcraft and a shaman icon in that swirly thingy). I guess when the Iron Horde showed up with big bad from-the-future blueprints the fuckers went nuts and became the colossal war machine we see in WoD. Just imagine if a dude comes up with flying cars, laser weapons and floating city schematics to corporate giants today.


Actually I'm a big fan of the way they redid most of the clans, it gave them way more unique identities and rich ideologies. The Shattered Hand is way more interesting imo, specially the part where the clan is based on this group of Orc slaves that rebelled against their ogre slavemasters and smashed their hands off the chains. It's a shame they never developed those clans at all and left this huge gap.
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  #4238  
Old 01-20-2016, 10:34 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I like the shattered clan's reimagining to an extent because it helped reconcile

A: Why they're big heroes to the Modern Horde

B: Why the Fel Horde had them as elite warriors but Rogues in the New Horde
The original clan in Draenor developed into berserky fury warriors due to the pain and masochism focus while the New Horde version took their inspiration from the sneaky gladiator uprising aspect, and not the self mutilation bit.

EDIT:

Could've done more to flesh it out though, and still had it be an older clan to an extent.
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  #4239  
Old 01-20-2016, 11:39 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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I like the shattered clan's reimagining to an extent because it helped reconcile

A: Why they're big heroes to the Modern Horde
I don't think it really needed a 'reconciliation.' By the end of BtDP, Kargath was as much a hero as Grom was; Grom subsequently also killed Mannoroth, but not before messing up things a bit more, and that's why he has the throne room of the capital city named after him while Kargath has a minor settlement in the middle of nowhere named after him.

Overall I feel like WoD made the orc clans/chieftains more game-y and less realistic. Blackhand especially looks ridiculous. And I'm not a fan of how Teron Gorefiend acts completely out of character. Even in TBC, when he got "hit with the villain bat" in a sense (though it was actually the BtDP novel that came out later and retconned him into a hero), he still acted and spoke with class. In WoD he's somehow a completely one-dimensional power-hungry megalomaniac.
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  #4240  
Old 01-20-2016, 11:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I don't think it really needed a 'reconciliation.' By the end of BtDP, Kargath was as much a hero as Grom was; Grom subsequently also killed Mannoroth, but not before messing up things a bit more, and that's why he has the throne room of the capital city named after him while Kargath has a minor settlement in the middle of nowhere named after him.

Overall I feel like WoD made the orc clans/chieftains more game-y and less realistic. Blackhand especially looks ridiculous. And I'm not a fan of how Teron Gorefiend acts completely out of character. Even in TBC, when he got "hit with the villain bat" in a sense (though it was actually the BtDP novel that came out later and retconned him into a hero), he still acted and spoke with class. In WoD he's somehow a completely one-dimensional power-hungry megalomaniac.
My thing was why he'd be remembered more prominently than say, Kilrogg or anyone else from the Old Horde.


I agree though on how they were made more Gamey

I HATE Gorefiend in WoD

And a big part of what made Blackhand interesting to me was his -family-, his family is the only one who we know had a Dad, Mom, Sons and Daughter in the orcs, which WoD wiped from existence.

I wanted to see Blackhand's -wife- Urugal.

I wanted to see Rend and Maim with an actual chance to grow up and not be aged up into murderous manchildren by fel magic.

If time travel lets you see what people are in different circumstances then why not have those differences matter at least? This whole "Oh they're still the same people so the outcomes are the same" thing was nonsense, and it reduces the impact of the demonic corruption on them to nil.

This notion that "Oh Garrosh was the corruption in WoD" is stupid too I just- UGH

Despise that whole expansion.

So much POTENTIAL

Ruined.
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  #4241  
Old 01-21-2016, 10:15 AM
Kromash Kromash is offline

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Oh yes Gorefiend is grotesque. I was so excited to see the "Teron before he was a death knight" and it ended up being a shallow power hungry maniac like most warlocks. He's nothing like Teron Gorefiend from BT.


And yeah, it was a shame not seeing the Blackhand family. I do like the liviing-furnace idea for Blackhand tho... His VA is amazing too
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  #4242  
Old 01-21-2016, 04:08 PM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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I always thought it might have been interesting if certain clans had been influenced by the practices of other races. As in, perhaps some of the Shadowmoon's dark shamanism had stemmed from contact with arakkoa shadow magic.
That collaborates with a lot of the existing canon, actually. You can cherrypick the supporting evidence - their proximity, say, or Iskar's easy-in with the Shadow Council - but even just following the lore posits this.

Look at the practice of Void magic, for instance. Shadowmoon did it, Outcasts did it. There is an existing theory that Draenor, being an alternate universe, is somehow destined to die; It's a flasehood, an illusion... Being so, it is naturally drawn to the Void, to Shadow, to Death. Ties up all those sidestories pretty well (which, to me, were the best part of the expansion).

Someone mentioned Blackrock being crafters pre-Iron Horde and yes, that's true. I believe the old WoD website described them as using the volcanic vents throughout Gorgrond, developing steel before any ofthe other clans. Shamanism exists, but it is an elemental thing, it seems, and less to-do with the ancestral spirits... Somewhat relative to the modern Horde, there.

Now, returning to the Blood Magic, it's interesting to note that the Shattered Hand practice it as well. You can't say they picked it up from the ogres, because they show no evidence whatsoever of ever using it. Two different clans on opposite part of the continent. Can't imagine the Shaman were cutting each other up in Oshu'gun....

Anyway, I'm glad to see discussion on this. As much as I might dislike WoD, I do want to salvage as much of it for future storytelling.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:34 PM
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That collaborates with a lot of the existing canon, actually. You can cherrypick the supporting evidence - their proximity, say, or Iskar's easy-in with the Shadow Council - but even just following the lore posits this.

Look at the practice of Void magic, for instance. Shadowmoon did it, Outcasts did it. There is an existing theory that Draenor, being an alternate universe, is somehow destined to die; It's a flasehood, an illusion... Being so, it is naturally drawn to the Void, to Shadow, to Death. Ties up all those sidestories pretty well (which, to me, were the best part of the expansion).

Someone mentioned Blackrock being crafters pre-Iron Horde and yes, that's true. I believe the old WoD website described them as using the volcanic vents throughout Gorgrond, developing steel before any ofthe other clans. Shamanism exists, but it is an elemental thing, it seems, and less to-do with the ancestral spirits... Somewhat relative to the modern Horde, there.

Now, returning to the Blood Magic, it's interesting to note that the Shattered Hand practice it as well. You can't say they picked it up from the ogres, because they show no evidence whatsoever of ever using it. Two different clans on opposite part of the continent. Can't imagine the Shaman were cutting each other up in Oshu'gun....

Anyway, I'm glad to see discussion on this. As much as I might dislike WoD, I do want to salvage as much of it for future storytelling.
I believe very few people like WoD, but I can definetely agree that it had enormous potential and the orc clans construction was on its way to clearing the whole shit up. I don't know if they didn't get developed because of content scratch or just general laziness, but the build up they did back in Lords of War and similar stuff (like the Blackhand comic) hyped me up like fucking crazy. Maybe that's why I dislike WoD so much... I was promised amazing orc clan lore and got legion-smashed in the balls.

And about the Blackrock crafting (specially before Iron Horde), it seems they did indeed focus on elemental crafting, like the Lava Pool they made Doomhammer. The elemental forge they used (like in Blackrock Foundry) probably allowed them to make even stronger weapons in mass quantity. I think the biggest part of their shamanism is related to weapons, just like Orgrim and Blackhand were.
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Ah... you have learned much... and learned well... an honorable battle.
In the end, I stood by the warchief, because it was my duty, and I am glad that it was you who struck me down.
May your strength... lead the horde... into a new era of prosperity...
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  #4244  
Old 01-21-2016, 07:22 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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so hey why should non-night elves care about nordrassil

like I get that we're always being told that if it's destroyed the world will end but we're never told how or why Nordrassil falling would do that and everything I can find says that its only importance is making Night Elves immortal
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  #4245  
Old 01-21-2016, 07:26 PM
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so hey why should non-night elves care about nordrassil

like I get that we're always being told that if it's destroyed the world will end but we're never told how or why Nordrassil falling would do that and everything I can find says that its only importance is making Night Elves immortal
Yeah the only info we have on it is that with it, the Night Elves can enter the Emerald Dream and are immortal as long as it stands thanks to Nozdormu.

Nelf conspiracy confirmed
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Ah... you have learned much... and learned well... an honorable battle.
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  #4246  
Old 01-21-2016, 08:09 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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so hey why should non-night elves care about nordrassil

like I get that we're always being told that if it's destroyed the world will end but we're never told how or why Nordrassil falling would do that and everything I can find says that its only importance is making Night Elves immortal
The WoE gets exposed and villain absorbes it. Cue death of the world

Not sure if serious, but gonna pretend you were.
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Old 01-21-2016, 08:44 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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That is never how it's been explained though, what's always being considered at risk is the tree itself.
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  #4248  
Old 01-21-2016, 09:13 PM
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That is never how it's been explained though, what's always being considered at risk is the tree itself.
It's akin to saying "if the military base (Nordrassil) falls, then the villains will get access to the nukes (Well of Eternity) and kill us all!", far as I can tell.

The tree is more easily visible than the well, so people refer to the tree because it's the first thing they see. Same thing as people talking about the military base, and not just the nukes hidden in it.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #4249  
Old 01-21-2016, 09:28 PM
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Warcraft III says his goal was the tree, UVG says it was the Well itself.

Either way, him nomming those energies is bad.
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  #4250  
Old 01-22-2016, 03:47 AM
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Maybe the tree hides the well by absorbing radiant energy from it, meaning it's got hilarious amounts of energies stored in it?
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