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  #301  
Old 01-08-2020, 04:02 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I see people who identify themselves with the honorable horde side feeling pretty happy and satisfied with BFA.
Ha Ha Ha, No..
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #302  
Old 01-13-2020, 12:51 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Figured this might be of interest:


On one hand the music, voice acting, and general presentation seem to present Tyrande as pretty blatantly villain-foreshadowing, but on the other hand it frames Genn almost as the voice of reason in how he says Tyrande is right and Anduin is wrong, but then its focus on Anduin's hope so I have no idea where they're going with this.
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  #303  
Old 01-14-2020, 02:28 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
On one hand the music, voice acting, and general presentation seem to present Tyrande as pretty blatantly villain-foreshadowing, but on the other hand it frames Genn almost as the voice of reason in how he says Tyrande is right and Anduin is wrong, but then its focus on Anduin's hope so I have no idea where they're going with this.
To me it seems they are switching up the faction thematics. The Horde are now the confederated ones who yet seem to get alone well while the Alliance are in theory unified behind Stormwind but in practice they are a mess of competing wants and ideals.
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  #304  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:31 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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To me it seems they are switching up the faction thematics. The Horde are now the confederated ones who yet seem to get alone well while the Alliance are in theory unified behind Stormwind but in practice they are a mess of competing wants and ideals.
So pretty much unpleasant overall.
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  #305  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:35 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Thank you for posting that!

I had a couple of shower thoughts about this. Why didn't Anduin and Tryande speak prior to this? If Baine is committed to peace, wouldn't he at least have tried to reach out to Tyrande? If the writers are so interested about giving us a breadcrumb about the undead Night Elves that no one asked for, couldn't they have done better with explaining the state of the Night Elves now that the war is supposedly over? Is Tyrande going to attack something? What's next? Why did all of these people who golf clapped for the armistice suddenly leaving with Tyrande without so much as a word or a reaction?

Oh who am I kidding, the answer is probably that Blizzard didn't care.

Anduin sounds like he's lecturing Tyrande and comes off as being completely unsympathetic to why she's upset in the first place, but he's still framed as being "right". Will Tyrande be a villain? Will a company deploy as the message of their video game that it's wrong to pacify a state that has multiple times demonstrated that they're only interested in taking civilians for use as target practice, and otherwise will happily engage in genocide on the basis of blood and honor because some whacked out strongman told them to?

Probably. In the meantime, they already told us what Night Elf fans can reasonably expect: a nice pile of ashes.
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  #306  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:16 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Ha Ha Ha, No..

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  #307  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:50 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Again... Krainz, have you considered that Skoll and the lot of them are the outliers?
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  #308  
Old 01-26-2020, 03:16 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Hey Kyalin, I guess they decided to showcase the Night Elves' victory over Darkshore through in-game content:

https://www.wowhead.com/news=309830/...rande-cutscene

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The Battle for Darkshore Warfront reaches a conclusion in a new quest and cutscene showing that Tyrande has retaken Darkshore. Thanks to SInnie_Moon for bringing this to our attention!

We learned at the BlizzCon 2019 Q&A that canonically the Alliance wins both the Arathi and Darkshore Warfronts, so it is good to see some of that narrative development reflected in-game. Tyrande has been absent for much of Battle for Azeroth, last seen clashing with Anduin before undergoing the dangerous Night Warrior ritual to channel the power of Elune and take back Darkshore without the full military backing of the Alliance. We know, based on BlizzCon 2019, that Tyrande's story will continue in Shadowlands, as she investigates why Elune's power was recently diminished.

The following cutscene (note: our older version is WIP, missing sound) and quest were datamined during the 8.1 PTR but did not make it into the game until now. This is available to Alliance players who have completed the Darkshore quests, and A New Hope spawns in the main area of Darkshore where players port in to the north. Simply speak to Maiev while on the quest to trigger the cutscene.

There's been a bit of a mix-up recently with Warfronts where heroic mode opened earlier than intended on EU servers, so perhaps this quest was meant to spawn once Heroic Warfronts officially opened. While we're not sure of the exact reason why the quest spawned over the weekend, it appeared to pop up for players once Alliance started contributions. It is unclear if this quest has spawned on both NA or EU realms, and what is the precise criteria to spawn it.

Darkshore belongs to our people once more, in no small part due to your efforts. And, while I disagree with her methods, we would not have succeeded without Tyrande as well. Differences aside, she is our leader--and an incarnation of the Night Warrior herself. She is about to begin. You may stand here beside me.
Tyrande: Victory is ours this night!
Tyrande: Elune has given us the power to save ourselves!
Tyrande: The Horde burned our forests thinking to kill our hope.
Tyrande: They died for that folly. For our hope resides not in the trees, but in our bonds to each other!
Tyrande: We...are...Kaldorei!
Looking over the crowd, we can identify some Night Elves and Worgen in the background:
  • Named Night Elves include Malfurion, Maiev, Shandris, and Archmage Mordent Evenshade.
  • Some Worgen are present, showing their support for the Kaldorei. The Greymane family is present--Genn, Mia, and Tess--as well as Druid Trainer Celestine of the Harvest and Commander Lorna Crowley.
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  #309  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:01 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Admittedly, I'm getting less and less motivated to do this. Back when BfA was in flight, there was hope that the team might do something to restore the lost confidence and pride in the Night Elves - pivotally against the Horde. I've said it before that the marketing team did get one thing right "It matters" - which is why I'm not as motivated. Shadowlands all but kills the possibility of a meaningful comeback, especially with Blizzard's strange hesitance both to show the Night Elves in a victorious position, and to clarify the status of what might be the most important zone in Warcraft: Ashenvale.

This could blow up into a billion complaints though, so I would just like to focus on one: the state of Warcraft's rivalry.

There are some who claim that the faction war is a universal evil, but I disagree. I think that a faction war can be engaging and enjoyable for both sides. Rivalries work in team sports and in fiction all of the time, so why doesn't it work here? As usual, I tried to find my answer in third party research, but Google didn't give up the goods. Instead, I found a couple of blog posts - hardly authoritative, but I'm going to present them for your consideration anyway. So first, let's talk about rivalries in general:

https://www.thecut.com/2014/06/why-t...cer-rival.html

The good:

- Rivalry increases effort, performance, and group cohesion because it increases motivation.

The bad:

- Rivalries increase unethical behavior.
- People tend to accept worse outcomes for themselves if it means the rival will achieve an even worse outcome.
- Rivalries can make us overlook non-rivals.

I wouldn't say that we're observing the pros in the Warcraft rivalry, but we're absolutely seeing the cons. Alliance players want to burn down Orgrimmar, despite that this would destroy the game - and Horde players are out justifying genocide as a concept. World threats just don't seem to matter anymore, and universal spite is the order of the day, and no one respects each other. #Notall of course, people are people and people are different, if you're not doing this personally, then I'm not talking about you - and your results may vary. These are general trends, but they are observable trends, nonetheless.

What might be a reason for all of this? How did we get here? Well, why don't we start with the Alliance?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...a-good-rivalry

Quote:
Nor is it uncommon to hope your rival loses every game they play. Many times, fans will celebrate a rivals' defeat against anyone as much as they will their own teams' victory.

But think about this: What does it say about the strength of your own team if its' main rival goes '0-fer' every year? What if your adversary's mascot is called the Cuddly Bunny?
A few years ago, as a joke at Blizzcon, Blizzard held up slogans for the Alliance including "Not the face", and "We'll keep trying". They trotted out a metal frontman to berate the Alliance for not letting him farm motes of air, and they have in general failed to present a real alternative to the high-octane themes of the Horde. Lore heavy Horde fans may complain here, turning to quest text, developer statements, and other written materials that suggest that the Horde isn't actually that powerful, but as we discussed last time, visuals are more memorable, and video more effective than audio and text by a factor of almost ten - with visuals alone being more memorable by a factor of five. Those visuals display the Horde as strong and powerful.

The Alliance by contrast isn't. They do not look powerful, they are not menacing, and they're not particularly memorable either. That's why people thought those statements were funny - they were true. Few people are going to take a flower-laden Night Elf seriously, especially after the War of the Thorns. Anduin is a nonthreatening blonde kid who would make Neville Chamberlain and Mr. Rogers look like the Doom guy. What's left then? Good boy Genn? Jaina? There isn't anyone who is going to have the appeal of a Garrosh or a Sylvanas. That's because Blizzard isn't interested in giving the Alliance that kind of thing. As a result: the faction sucks - regardless of what they may say to the contrary in a developer tweet or on page 47 of some obscure book that no more than a twenty-fifth of the population is ever going to read. This isn't enough - payback has be shown onscreen, and it has to be meaningful - but Blizzard has serially denied this, and will into the foreseeable future.

Two problems arise as a result of this. One: onscreen victories against the Alliance are expected, and therefore mean little. Two: the Alliance can't trash talk, and otherwise has little motivation to even participate.

They're not the only losers in this relationship of course. So let's talk about the Horde.

Some of the problem I've discussed already. People play video games for reasons of competence, relatedness, and autonomy, and lying to the Horde about what they were signing up - selling the faction for years as more than a slavering pack of Lord of the Rings villains, only to pull the rug out from under those people because the writers now needed a villain for "the story they wanted to tell" attacks the latter two of those elements - hard, and Horde players have been right to complain about it. As far as it goes for the rivalry however, a quote from this passage stuck with me:

http://www.gregkroleski.com/2016/11/...great-rivalry/

Quote:
The heart of any rivalry is a shared love for a common activity. Two forces of talent going after a common goal. Both finding their limits in each other.

When nurtured properly, these rivalries will develop into a deep respect. Two giants standing alone, who finally have perspective into their similarities to each other and differences from all others.

What two deadlocked generals, in a future time of peace, wouldn’t want to dine together, to converse with the only other person able to match their wit in their particular field of battle.

The friendships that develop are the wine made from the harvest of the rivalry.
Is deep respect even possible here?

Due to the nature of the narrative, the Horde doesn't even earn any of its victories - they're handed to them by fiat, and the lack of motivation that comes in as a result on the part of their normative rivals fills in the rest. Many in the Horde don't even want what's happening while others bend over backwards to justify and defend increasingly evil acts to either accept this new role, or to deny that the role has been handed to them - all the while denying that the other faction should get a thing to resolve their longstanding issues. Which is fair enough. They're often treated the same way.

In short, there's a reason why this rivalry so toxic. One side didn't choose to be evil for the most part, but was made into that anyway. The other meanwhile is not allowed to have any sort of recourse that matters, and no one takes them seriously.

So where do we go from here?

We don't. The writers are moving on to Shadowlands and leaving all of these problems to rot. Sylvanas is no longer part of the Horde and therefore, she only has so much relevance to the rivalry - the only thing that matters, and even that only matters in a Schadenfreude sort of way - against the Forsaken playerbase in particular who just had most of their lore hallowed out for this mess. It won't resolve this issue - and it seems that Blizzard's current leadership doesn't care. The writers are too high on their own egos to consider that they're writing a story for a video game with living players who want to have fun, the developers are short staffed and are rushing product out the door without regard to quality, Ion's on some really good drugs, and Activision is probably wondering if it's time to Guitar-Hero this franchise. I'm not motivated to write these anymore because every tea leaf in front of me says that this isn't getting better, and that it's never going to.

I guess I just had some free time and wanted to take my frustrations out on the last major topic that was buzzing around in my head.
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  #310  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:45 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Hey Kyalin, I guess they decided to showcase the Night Elves' victory over Darkshore through in-game content:

https://www.wowhead.com/news=309830/...rande-cutscene
In reply to this - we did speak some time ago. The timing of this is interesting, but I think this falls into the category of necessary but not sufficient for reasons that I have gone into previously.
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  #311  
Old Yesterday, 11:05 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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In reply to this - we did speak some time ago. The timing of this is interesting, but I think this falls into the category of necessary but not sufficient for reasons that I have gone into previously.
Strange update I just found out. This quest was only ever available on EU servers, never for any other region, and they've since disabled it on EU servers too. Its possible, since it was originally part of the 8.1 PTR, that it was never meant to go live and its appearance was a glitch for some reason.
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  #312  
Old Today, 07:52 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Strange update I just found out. This quest was only ever available on EU servers, never for any other region, and they've since disabled it on EU servers too. Its possible, since it was originally part of the 8.1 PTR, that it was never meant to go live and its appearance was a glitch for some reason.
I mean, the cinematic isn't very good, so I can see it being cut on those grounds - but just to confirm: it's once again struck from the game?
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  #313  
Old Today, 08:30 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I mean, the cinematic isn't very good, so I can see it being cut on those grounds - but just to confirm: it's once again struck from the game?
I can confirm it was never enabled on NA servers, and when I asked on twitter I was told it had been removed from EU servers recently.
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