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  #51  
Old 03-29-2014, 12:49 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Why are tauren being pushed out of their land and having their territorial integrity ignored by the dwarves not good reasons?
I thought the whole point of the tauren was that they were wandering nomads and Mulgore/Thunder Bluff is the only place that can really be called their territory at the time of Vanilla WoW.

Just saying. They didn't have any territorial integrity to breach.
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2014, 12:59 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I thought the whole point of the tauren was that they were wandering nomads and Mulgore/Thunder Bluff is the only place that can really be called their territory at the time of Vanilla WoW.

Just saying. They didn't have any territorial integrity to breach.
They were nomadic, but I thought camps were a part of that. Also there are/were Dwarves in Mulgore. Either way, having their bases attacked regardless of land ownership is a reasonable thing to be pissed at.
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  #53  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
I thought the whole point of the tauren was that they were wandering nomads and Mulgore/Thunder Bluff is the only place that can really be called their territory at the time of Vanilla WoW.

Just saying. They didn't have any territorial integrity to breach.
A lack of permanent settlement does not imply a lack of territory, especially if one's family has lived there for generations. Mulgore and Thunderbluff are notable for being the first places that are permanently and heavily settled by Tauren.
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  #54  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:19 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Shouldn't have tried to combat a massively overpowering force, then. *Shrug*

I mean, really, I don't deny the dwarves were dicks (I love that they were dicks) but they had the power to do so and they used that power as they saw fit.

You know, like any realistic nation would do.

And now they're on the winning side, the tauren are on the losing side, or the side with less clout and power, so asking for consequences is foolish and pointless because the loser of a conflict can't demand concessions from one of the winners.
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  #55  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:22 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
A lack of permanent settlement does not imply a lack of territory, especially if one's family has lived there for generations. Mulgore and Thunderbluff are notable for being the first places that are permanently and heavily settled by Tauren.
*nods* Nomads had territories they roamed in over the generations, the taurens would have had no less. The centaurs are the same. A nomadic people. A people do not have to have permanent settlements in all of their territory to have an enforced claim in it. Night elven lands and tauren lands are excellent examples of that. Both peoples left as little of an impact on the land as they could and as a result, much of the land they held was/is wilderness areas, but this doesn't mean they aren't unclaimed by the Kaldorei or tauren.
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  #56  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:24 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Oh well, again, not the dwarves' fault the tauren were a bunch of uncivilised backwards savages using governmental systems and cultural attitudes centuries old in their eyes!
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:26 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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*nods* Nomads had territories they roamed in over the generations, the taurens would have had no less. The centaurs are the same. A nomadic people. A people do not have to have permanent settlements in all of their territory to have an enforced claim in it. Night elven lands and tauren lands are excellent examples of that. Both peoples left as little of an impact on the land as they could and as a result, much of the land they held was/is wilderness areas, but this doesn't mean they aren't unclaimed by the Kaldorei or tauren.
Indeed; and I'd happily see those lands returned to their respective peoples and, where that fails, made neutral and given to the Cenarion Circle.

There's no question that both sides have legitimate reasons to be upset with one another, but the Horde's reasons for going to war with the Alliance were pretty crappy.

If you have Aszhara, treat it right and you have all the lumber you need. If you have materials to build siege weapons and new weaponry, you have the materials to build homes and water filtration. Garrosh actually made things a lot worse for a post-cataclysm Durotar with his warmongering because they actually had what they needed and squandered it.
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  #58  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:29 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Oh well, again, not the dwarves' fault the tauren were a bunch of uncivilised backwards savages using governmental systems and cultural attitudes centuries old in their eyes!
It was the Dwarves fault thinking that any places with lots of metal ore and any and all Titan sites belong to them, even if the places are on another nation's land.
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  #59  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:33 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Oh well, again, not the dwarves' fault the tauren were a bunch of uncivilised backwards savages using governmental systems and cultural attitudes centuries old in their eyes!
I hope you're being ironic because the tauren are essentially a pastiche of several actual cultures and describing them as "backwards, uncivilised, and savage" is pretty shitty.
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  #60  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:40 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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no i am being completely serious in all aspects ever

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
It was the Dwarves fault thinking that any places with lots of metal ore and any and all Titan sites belong to them, even if the places are on another nation's land.
Again:

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I mean, really, I don't deny the dwarves were dicks (I love that they were dicks) but they had the power to do so and they used that power as they saw fit.

You know, like any realistic nation would do.

And now they're on the winning side, the tauren are on the losing side, or the side with less clout and power, so asking for consequences is foolish and pointless because the loser of a conflict can't demand concessions from one of the winners.
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  #61  
Old 03-29-2014, 01:43 PM
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no i am being completely serious in all aspects ever
Fair enough. XD
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  #62  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:03 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Shouldn't have tried to combat a massively overpowering force, then. *Shrug*

I mean, really, I don't deny the dwarves were dicks (I love that they were dicks) but they had the power to do so and they used that power as they saw fit.

You know, like any realistic nation would do.
So why is it bad when the orcs do it?
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  #63  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:19 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
So why is it bad when the orcs do it?
A. Other races don't want to because reasons.

B. They screw everybody over because reasons.

C. Blizzard.
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  #64  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:30 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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I may be wrong, but wasn't Silvermoon City build on old abandoned ruins far from existing troll settlements? It's not like the Highborne were looking for a fight or anything.
No they built on the troll settlements in the lore.

The RPG tried to retcon that, but Blizzard ignored it.


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1) The Dwarven presence in Mulgore is a very valid and fair point. The dwarves were disturbing the elements. However, originally in the RPGs, those dwarves had permission to be there and dig there by Cairne. I think that may have been a, 'Better to beg forgiveness thank to ask permission,' thing though. Regardless, the Tauren had good reason to be unhappy with the Alliance.
Ahem, they had permission from Baine(the original giver of those quests) in the RPG. However the RPG was written by a third party rather then Blizzard.

And the RPG never addressed the dwarves aggresion in the barrens, by that same group no less, that involved the slaughter and forced deportation of an entire tauren tribe.


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Daelin's attack was resolved, Jaina helping the Horde to kill her own father. That right there shows some serious dedication to peace. Jaina was willing to give up one of her own race, her father no less.
And killing any Theramore troops or destroying any Theramore building failed the Warcraft III mission, showing the Horde was dedicated to peace as well.

Don't forget, the player humans are Stormwind, and mistrust the orcs. Not being the same group, the Horde fought with in Hyjal.

Also Jaina didn't directly help kill her father, but rather moved her troops aside, rather then help Daelin who also forcibly trying to take over Theramore.

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Meanwhile Thrall has such a hard-on for making sure Orcs are never subjected to human, 'justice,' that he was about to fight Varian over who kills Garrosh, and refused to turn over anyone he found complicit or guilty of skinning the sentinels in Ashenvale.
Thats not Vanilla, and thats Mists Of Pandaria which demonized/Villified the entire Horde, as well as slapping them with truly horrible writing.

As for Kul'tiras, not only were their forces still their in Vanilla, but a quest revealed another Kul'tiras force led by Lieutenant Alverold was coming to attack Durotar.

Though shitty writing led to this being forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
3) Because the Darkspear were already nearly annihilated. -Murlocs- had almost wiped them out, and that was long before Daelin showed up. While that's certainly more than enough to mistrust/hate the Alliance, I think the Darkspear were more upset that one of their own had betrayed them.
Actually Kul'tiras troops led by Kelen the Seeker, were hunting the Darkspear without provocation when Thrall met them. After, the orcs fought Kul'tiras off the trolls, then they were captured by the Sea Witch, where the Kul'tiras forces were killed due to being unwilling to work with the orcs and Darkspear.

Don't forget, Daelin had an battallion of ships and Wildhammer Gryphon Riders, setting fire to the Echo Isles, killing many according to Vol'jin.

In short, play Warcraft III.

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  #65  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:35 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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The Grim Totem consider Kalimdor to belong to them because as nomads they wandered the length and breathe of the continent. Walking on land and living off of it for a few months out of the year doesn't make it yours.
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  #66  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:44 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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I notice the uber extreme narrow minded Alliance fans choose to ignore that several of the Tauren tribes did have permanent settlements.
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  #67  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
I notice the uber extreme narrow minded Alliance fans choose to ignore that several of the Tauren tribes did have permanent settlements.
What ones and when were they introduced?
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  #68  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:51 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
What ones and when were they introduced?
Several tribes as having permanent settlements in the barrens.
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  #69  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:52 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Several tribes as having permanent settlements in the barrens.
He's asking which tribes.
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  #70  
Old 03-29-2014, 02:56 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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For one, the Stonespire tribe.
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  #71  
Old 03-29-2014, 03:00 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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For one, the Stonespire tribe.
Is that the one that got wiped out by the dwarves?
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  #72  
Old 03-29-2014, 03:01 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Is that the one that got wiped out by the dwarves?
Yes, even the Dwarven acount describes them as native, but says they didn't care about the local inhabitants.
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  #73  
Old 03-29-2014, 04:38 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Yes, even the Dwarven acount describes them as native, but says they didn't care about the local inhabitants.
Where is the village at then?
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  #74  
Old 03-29-2014, 05:37 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Where is the village at then?
As I mentioned already, the barrens.
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  #75  
Old 03-29-2014, 07:47 PM
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Saying the Horde has no reason to fight the Alliance is like saying there's no reason to climb a mountain.

There is, and the reason is that it's because it's there.
Precisely. It was there in Durotar, the Barrens, and Mulgore back in Vanilla. The rest of your words seem to suggest that it's you who want the Alliance to be treated like precious little snowflakes.

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So, sure, the Horde can hold the Alliance responsible for Daelin's actions, but they can't pretend it was some kind of a betrayal of trust or violation of a treaty, since the Alliance never signed any such thing, and as far as the Alliance was concerned, the Horde were rampaging monsters that staged a prison break and no one can argue that they had reason to think otherwise.
Monsters that moved to a new continent with the intent to be away from humanity. If anything, I think that the real question is why Jaina decided to build Theramore instead of moving the survivors back to the Eastern Kingdoms where they may have a better chance of retaking Lordaeron and the Eastern Kingdoms?
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