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Old 05-05-2014, 01:33 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Runes Is the Horde really a family?

The orcs had no real issues brutalizing their allies when they weren't convenient. This was never really explored by having the orcs (other than Garrosh) point out that the trolls and tauren don't contribute much to the Horde.


The Trolls and Tauren aren't particularly close.


The Tauren are about as close with humans and nelfs as they are with orcs at this point.


No one ever got close with the Forsaken except -maybe- the belfs.

And the belfs aren't particularly close with anyone but -maybe- the Forsaken.

Which leaves the goblins who seem to hang out with the orcs who seem ambivalent at best about the goblins ever since they started the whole orc supremacy kick.


Has the Horde -ever- been a family?
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:36 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Trolls and tauren are actually quite close. Close enough that there are blue tauren.

It's mostly the Garry-orcs, goblins and eastern Horde that needs to find their place in this family, since Blizzard failed to actually integrate them.
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:37 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I'm pretty sure blue tauren is used as an insult, not a compliment.
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:39 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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How many times was the Horde referred to as a family prior the 5.1 patch?

Base sentimentality is basic~!
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:40 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I'm pretty sure blue tauren is used as an insult, not a compliment.
It's a mixture, I'd say. They forgot their own culture and adopted the tauren culture. Regardless, it shows that they're pretty close.
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:41 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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the orcs are the drunk, abusive dad
the tauren are the abused wife
the trolls are the older kid who is cool does weed
the belves are the middle sister who is vain and bitchy
the forsaken are the emo, nerd younger kid
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:42 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Trolls and tauren are actually quite close. Close enough that there are blue tauren.

It's mostly the Garry-orcs, goblins and eastern Horde that needs to find their place in this family, since Blizzard failed to actually integrate them.
1. Which are mocked and seen as 'wrong'.


2. Garry-orcs are pretty much all orcs besides Saurfang, Eitrigg, and Thrall.

So Orcs, Goblins, Forsaken and Belfs 'aren't family', but Tauren and trolls are buddies...

Greaaaaaat...
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:44 PM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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I got to say I didn't find the 'family' thing particularly convincing. In 5.4, I felt the only ones who actually might have felt that 'family' thing was the trolls and the tauren, which wasn't very impressive since they also felt like the weakest parts of the Horde.

Id say if you went back to late BC or early Wrath there was some comradery between the Horde races that approached a sense of 'family'. We were a bunch of isolated races that had stood by each other through hard times and even when each other had screwed up. Cata and MoP completely destroyed that sense, fracturing the horde into a group of races that are only still together cause they have no safe option to bail out.

As a concept, I'm not entirely opposed to the plot they gave the horde. The problem is it feels very mishandled. I was pretty bummed about it at the end of Cata. I kind of dealt with it by just accepting that the Tauren were going to be ineffectual, the orcs were going to be jerk I didn't like and that the forsaken were going to just be Scourge 2.0. Really, its the Trolls, and BEs that interest me the most about the horde.

I don't really care that much about the rest anymore. They tend to be a continual disappointment.

OMG! I just realised that the Tauren are a race of Anduins! I mean take all the naivity and foolishness of Anduin, remove any effective action and you have the Tauren race!
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:44 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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White~ WAAAAAAASSSSSSSHHHHH~!
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:54 PM
Skullcrusha Skullcrusha is offline

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The whole family thing felt really forced to me. The Horde felt more like allies of convenience that banded together because they got their backsides saved by X (tauren and trolls with orcs), or everyone else is kind of against them. I imagine after 10+ years they would have moved from more than ally of convenience but family is stretching it.
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:56 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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To be blunt, when they started campaigning the whole family thing, they only had Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls in mind. Tauren and Trolls are more defined for their relationships with Orcs before Garrosh than they are hanging out together.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:08 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Suppose not.

Should they be more like a family though?
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:10 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Should they be more like a family though?
Yes.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:12 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Skullcrusha View Post
The whole family thing felt really forced to me. The Horde felt more like allies of convenience that banded together because they got their backsides saved by X (tauren and trolls with orcs), or everyone else is kind of against them. I imagine after 10+ years they would have moved from more than ally of convenience but family is stretching it.
This really, I want the Horde to be family but it never was. In fact Blizzard went to some pains to illustrate that Horde has serious internal issues time and time again. Honestly it is one of the most consistent story themes, quite remarkable given Blizzard's half-assed attitude to storytelling.

So Horde is family is kinda the thing fanboys and RPers might want (it is surprising how much some fanfiction blows the Horde closeness out of proportion), but it was never set up. In fact in the very expansion this is supposed to be a thing we have fickle BEs, treacherous Forsaken and everyone else should be kinda ambivalent about the whole thing given how poorly the Horde was led, sometimes they even seem ambivalent in MoP.

So WTF are we talking about here? The story clearly paints a different picture and then out of nowhere comes this Horde is family crap that doesn't feel true in the least and is not portrayed even remotely well in the expansion that touts it left and right. I admit this is one of those things I WANT to see, but the way it was handled, i.e. utterly hollow and without impact, I just can't get excited about what is my inner fanboy's desire.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:16 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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The Horde of the 3rd War came together as a result of Orcs helping Trolls and Tauren for no particular reason other than they needed the help, had common enemies, and in the Tauren's case, they needed directions. They earned allies through blood and valor, and this is the basis for the Horde Family that Vol'jin created. It marks a distinct difference between Thrall and Garrosh's policies: Thrall helped Tauren and Trolls and even Goblins because they needed the help, whereas Garrosh alienated these races because he thought they didn't contribute. Thrall's vision of what they Horde is overcame Garrosh's. Vol'jin and Cairne didn't sign up because they shared Orcish dreams of glory and conquest, but they did throw their lot in with Thrall because he actively aided them in their time of need. Garrosh thought the Horde was nothing but a vessel of conquest, and when his more benign allies didn't share that vision but his less savory ones did, he grew disdainful for all of his allies.

To an extent, one can apply this concept to Sylvanas and the Blood Elves at first. Sylvanas needed friends within the Horde, and wasn't exactly trusted by any of the the existing leadership. As such, she went and made her own friends, sending troops to the Ghostlands, actively working to get Blood Elves into the Horde by helping them first, winning their allegiance through service. She's probably somewhere in between Thrall in Garrosh in that she recruited through service, but came back expecting favors in return later, which she got.

I'm still fuzzy on the details of how the undead got into the Horde in the first place, so I'm not sure if this principle applies there.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:19 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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I can believe that Vol'jin believes that the Horde is family.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:23 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I can believe that Vol'jin believes that the Horde is family.
The Horde saved his people twice. He owes them. He just doesn't owe them what Garrosh asked.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:26 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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I'm still fuzzy on the details of how the undead got into the Horde in the first place, so I'm not sure if this principle applies there.
The real answer is, obviously, that they needed an EK race in the Horde to balance out the Night Elves being a Kalimdor race in the Alliance.

As to an in-game reason, I figure it was either the realpolitik concern of having an ally in the Eastern Kingdoms once the Alliance got a foothold in Kalimdor with Theramore and Darnassus, or the other leaders were fed a line of "we must help them fix their condition" and didn't know that a lot of the Forsaken were not interested in a cure. If I remember correctly, recruiting the Forsaken was largely spearheaded by Magatha Grimtotem in order to further her own interests.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:30 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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The Horde saved his people twice. He owes them. He just doesn't owe them what Garrosh asked.
He didn't ask them to do anything.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:30 PM
Korath Korath is offline

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To answer your question, I need you to answer one first : what IS a family ? And it is not rhetorical, or me trolling. It is serious, because we need such a definition to answer.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:40 PM
Skullcrusha Skullcrusha is offline

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It was one of those things Blizzard TOLD us, rather than showed us. We didn't see any closeness amongst any of the Horde races that would warrant the label family. We are told it as if it should be known without providing evidence, save "Blue tauren".
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:53 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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What's interesting is that one of the qualities commonly ascribed to families (good families, anyway) is one that Blizzard has been trying to emphasize in the Alliance more than the Horde. Families always have disagreements, but non-dysfunctional ones will always come together when one of their own is in trouble. The idea of the Horde being a family from that perspective is undermined by the fact that they just finished fighting a rather nasty civil war.

The punchline for all of this is that a lot of Alliance fans do not view the Alliance as a family, and do not want the Alliance to be a family, especially if it means that they have to suffer through Varian as Ward Cleaver and Anduin as The Beav.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:54 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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He didn't ask them to do anything.
At the moment of truth, Garrosh asked Vol'jin to help introduce magics that mortals really didn't need to be messing with into the Horde for the sake of conquest. Vol'jin voiced reasonable moral objections and got his throat cut for it.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:56 PM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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Originally Posted by Arterius View Post
The real answer is, obviously, that they needed an EK race in the Horde to balance out the Night Elves being a Kalimdor race in the Alliance.

As to an in-game reason, I figure it was either the realpolitik concern of having an ally in the Eastern Kingdoms once the Alliance got a foothold in Kalimdor with Theramore and Darnassus, or the other leaders were fed a line of "we must help them fix their condition" and didn't know that a lot of the Forsaken were not interested in a cure. If I remember correctly, recruiting the Forsaken was largely spearheaded by Magatha Grimtotem in order to further her own interests.
It was actually Hamuul because he felt the horde could help them and aid them in finding a cure and changing their cursed nature. This is part of the source of my earlier Anduin comparison.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:59 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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It was actually Hamuul because he felt the horde could help them and aid them in finding a cure and changing their cursed nature. This is part of the source of my earlier Anduin comparison.
My mistake. So I guess it was Hamuul who recruited them for noble reasons, but Magatha who understood that the Forsaken were not interested in what Hamuul offered and started dealing with them to further her interests.
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