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  #28876  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:18 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I guess I did not count Nazi camp prisoners as the labor force when I made my analysis. Which okay, fair complaint, that does skew the total quite far to the right.

But talking about German workers I know Nazi Germany had a lot of work projects, workers got vacations and decent wages and the welfare system was alright, though maybe that last bit is just what got grandfathered in from imperial times. It lines up with "taking care of the volk" and also staying in power by keeping people happy. But again not an expert so maybe I am falling victim to revisionism.

That is the kind of socialism/Keynesian I meant nothing about the end goal of abolishing classes, Nazis obv. believed in hierarchies. I am sure given time and victory they would further shift their economics to fit with their ideology which would align rather well to what you are saying. But I think in their time, especially before the war they were pretty centrist/Keynesian.

Plus I think you might be mixing up Corporatism as it was understood then and just sucking up to the Corporations like we see today. Corporatism is about hierarchies and ordering everyone in a system but that system is meant to find a good place for them as opposed to throwing them out to the wolves as in a strict market system. Needless to say Nazis were big on nationalism and that does mean taking care of the people. You want to accentuate the Darwinian aspects of NatSoc but at the time I think the "taking care of the nation" far outweighed such thinking, again maybe in time if they had won and shifted from enemy without to enemy within this would become more dominant but that never happened.
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  #28877  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:37 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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But talking about German workers I know Nazi Germany had a lot of work projects, workers got vacations and decent wages and the welfare system was alright, though maybe that last bit is just what got grandfathered in from imperial times. It lines up with "taking care of the volk" and also staying in power by keeping people happy. But again not an expert so maybe I am falling victim to revisionism.
The work projects existed primarily for the purpose of the future (and then current) war effort for Lebensraum. The Autobahn was actually a project that the Nazis inherited from the Weimar Republic that they claimed as their own, but then put in minimal effort to complete. (It was of minimal value to the war effort of Germany, since they mainly deployed supplies using trains.)

Also, many German/Austrian workers were displaced, killed, and silenced if they voiced opposition. Or in the case of my ex's great-grandfather, he was suspected of Nazi opposition and so they conscripted him and sent him to the Russian Front to die. (He deserted and somehow made it back home alive.) It ignores how worker wages were frozen at a lower level for the sake of maintaining corporate profits. The Nazis hated the welfare policies of the Weimar Republic and actively sought to dismantle them when they reached office.

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But I think in their time, especially before the war they were pretty centrist/Keynesian.
Except they weren't as I already established. Keynesian policies would not advocate privatization, breaking up unions, while providing further tax breaks for the rich. They were rightwing policies for their time. If they were centrists for their time, then our sources back then would likely have treated them as such. But our sources then also recognized that this was part of a hard right-turn in Germany (along with Spain and Italy).

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Needless to say Nazis were big on nationalism and that does mean taking care of the people. You want to accentuate the Darwinian aspects of NatSoc but at the time I think the "taking care of the nation" far outweighed such thinking,
Not really. And that certainly wasn't the case for Nazi Germany. Nationalism is more about the advancement of the nation-state though not necessarily the advancement of the people therein. Overall, I think that you are drastically underplaying the extreme nationalistic project in Nazi ideology. One would certainly not hope that one would defend their policies or goals.

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again maybe in time if they had won and shifted from enemy without to enemy within this would become more dominant but that never happened.
They started with the enemy within. When they achieved power, they started targeting and gathering the "enemy within" first: Jews, Communists and some Social Democrats, Slavs, Roma, student activists, political opponents, etc. Anyone who was deemed an internal enemy of the Nazi state was targeted. They gained power in 1933. Concentration camps began in 1933. This was before war started in 1939.

I am not talking about what they might have done or hypotheticals. I am talking about what they historically did with their socio-economic policies. Their extreme rightwing economic policies were inseparable from their extreme rightwing social policies. Attempting to depict Nazis as "centrists" in any form is just trying to normalize the extremist ideology of Nazism.

I also recommend this YouTube video by Three Arrows which discusses this topic more indirectly by debunking the commonly kicked around idea (including in discussions in this forum) that Hitler and the Nazis were Socialists. But in the process he discusses the rightwing (and decidedly anti-leftwing) economic policies of the Nazis.


Last edited by Genesis; 02-04-2019 at 05:04 PM..
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  #28878  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:03 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I do not appreciate you implying I support Nazism. I find it morally repugnant and I have relatives who died because of it. So any such implications veiled or otherwise are entirely out of place.

By enemy within I mean Germans themselves, starting to look at their own people and applying Darwinist/supremacist thinking to weed out the "weak." I know this happened already with euthanasia and sterilization of disabled people but on a wider and stricter scale I mean. That is what I mean by Darwinian thinking overtaking nationalist one after they were done with external groups. And no I just flat out disagree nationalism is not without its good sides, perhaps not for those outside the nation but still.

Ultimately I think you are blinded by ideology and modern thinking here. Needless to say Nazis are horrible on the whole, even from a strictly German perspective let alone from the people they did not like. But most of that comes from their social beliefs and not economic ones which we are talking here. It is ying-yang you know, nothing is fully black. For a German living at the time before WW2 their policies would probably be pretty great and reasonable. Again chances are if they had time they might have gotten much worse when ideological purism set in but in the time they did exist their economic policies were rather centrist for the time. This does not excuse them in the least, doing alright for your own people at a massive expense to others is not something many endorse today. It is their supremacism and warmongering that pushes Nazis into the black, not their economics. They are plenty bad as they were, there is no need to make them look even worse at the expense of the truth. It is by blinding yourself to the truth that you risk repeating history because you don't understand it properly.

That is about all I have to say on this matter.
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  #28879  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:43 AM
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I do not appreciate you implying I support Nazism. I find it morally repugnant and I have relatives who died because of it. So any such implications veiled or otherwise are entirely out of place.
I am not suggesting that you are supporting Nazism. I do not think that you are. I am saying that depicting Nazism as "centralist" has a normalizing effect on their extremism that should be avoided.

[qutoe]By enemy within I mean Germans themselves, starting to look at their own people and applying Darwinist/supremacist thinking to weed out the "weak." I know this happened already with euthanasia and sterilization of disabled people but on a wider and stricter scale I mean.[/quote]There is a big problem with the wording of the "German themselves." Jews in Germany were Germans. Roma in Germany/Austria were Germans. These are people who have been living in these "German" controlled lands for centuries. And saying otherwise just plays into their own ideology that does not see these German citizens as true Germans. Not only that, but they did apply that to their own people. Homosexuals were internal.

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Ultimately I think you are blinded by ideology and modern thinking here. Needless to say Nazis are horrible on the whole, even from a strictly German perspective let alone from the people they did not like. But most of that comes from their social beliefs and not economic ones which we are talking here. It is ying-yang you know, nothing is fully black. For a German living at the time before WW2 their policies would probably be pretty great and reasonable. Again chances are if they had time they might have gotten much worse when ideological purism set in but in the time they did exist their economic policies were rather centrist for the time. This does not excuse them in the least, doing alright for your own people at a massive expense to others is not something many endorse today. It is their supremacism and warmongering that pushes Nazis into the black, not their economics. They are plenty bad as they were, there is no need to make them look even worse at the expense of the truth. It is by blinding yourself to the truth that you risk repeating history because you don't understand it properly.

That is about all I have to say on this matter.
You accuse me of being blinded by ideology and modern thinking without providing any evidence that supports your claim, which is par for the course so far.

You have failed to provide any actual facts of your own or counterarguments to refute the evidence that I presented. You have not engaged the truth. Your argument here is just feelings, opinions, and intuition. There is no actual discussion of the policies implemented. You do not engage any of the facts. You do not even contextualize them. You just put forth vagueries like "For a German living at the time before WW2 their policies would probably be pretty great and reasonable." That is not a reasonable argument that establishes centrism. Their economics were part of "their supremacism and warmongering," so I would say that their economics do push them into the black just as well. It's like trying to separate the social beliefs and economic policies of the U.S. Confederacy. Their economics and social beliefs were built inseperably on supporting the institution of slavery. Why did employment go down in Nazi Germany? Because their economic policies removed women, Jews, and other minorities from the work place while also conscripting eligible men into the military, which counts as employment. But the economy in 1932 was already on the upswing prior to the implementation of any of the Nazi policies. The Nazis were a recognized far right party in their own time period by their own Germans, Europeans, and Western nations of the world. They sat at the farthest right of the Reichstag.

Ultimately you got called out for bullshit.
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  #28880  
Old 02-06-2019, 06:17 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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/shrug

You can declare victory all you like but that does not make it so. I have laid out my thinking and you have yours and the people reading will draw their own conclusions from that.

But what is even your goal here? To assert that Nazism is bad? Yeah no shit we all agree with that. But if you set out to make it out as 100% evil for evil's sake then people will just roll their eyes and move on. It was horrible, probably the most horrible thing in history but it was not 100% evil. It had its good sides, if only for the ethnic Germans but still. That is how it got to power, by seeming like a good idea to a large number of people and not by some cartoonish evil. If you set out to make it even worse than it already is you don't gain much, most people will just raise their hands, declare it evil and move on. But that is a bad approach since if people don't understand how it happened they don't understand how it can happen again and can't defend against it. That is why truth matters and even twisting it in hopes of achieving a good result is a bad idea.
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  #28881  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:03 PM
Saranus Saranus is online now

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
/shrug

You can declare victory all you like but that does not make it so. I have laid out my thinking and you have yours and the people reading will draw their own conclusions from that.

But what is even your goal here? To assert that Nazism is bad? Yeah no shit we all agree with that. But if you set out to make it out as 100% evil for evil's sake then people will just roll their eyes and move on. It was horrible, probably the most horrible thing in history but it was not 100% evil. It had its good sides, if only for the ethnic Germans but still. That is how it got to power, by seeming like a good idea to a large number of people and not by some cartoonish evil. If you set out to make it even worse than it already is you don't gain much, most people will just raise their hands, declare it evil and move on. But that is a bad approach since if people don't understand how it happened they don't understand how it can happen again and can't defend against it. That is why truth matters and even twisting it in hopes of achieving a good result is a bad idea.
Yeah, I don't buy it. I don't think Genesis is "twisting" the truth to make Nazis seem worse than they really were. Pretty sure they really were that bad. I don't think Genesis at any point downplayed our shared humanity with Nazis, or suggested that it couldn't happen again. I think the point is that humans are very much capable of cartoonish evil, as you put it.

That they had some sort of redeeming quality or common humanity is not really the point. It's like saying slave owners from the American South really loved their children, so they can't be all that bad. When you say things like that it's seems like equivocating. This is just how it comes across to me.
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Last edited by Saranus; 02-06-2019 at 04:06 PM..
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  #28882  
Old 02-06-2019, 08:59 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Yeah, I don't buy it. I don't think Genesis is "twisting" the truth to make Nazis seem worse than they really were. Pretty sure they really were that bad. I don't think Genesis at any point downplayed our shared humanity with Nazis, or suggested that it couldn't happen again. I think the point is that humans are very much capable of cartoonish evil, as you put it.

That they had some sort of redeeming quality or common humanity is not really the point. It's like saying slave owners from the American South really loved their children, so they can't be all that bad. When you say things like that it's seems like equivocating. This is just how it comes across to me.
Remember that the initial argument was over Nazi economics. That is what I mean, they are morally awful all things considered but their economics were okayish (again I did not count their camps prisoners as workers if you do then yeah that is also pretty grim). They are pitch black already, no need to make them even blacker because then we are just deluding ourselves and making it harder to recognize the warning signs if something similar were to happen again.
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  #28883  
Old 02-07-2019, 12:34 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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And Genesis already explained that even the economics were not "okayish", as the entire system was built on stealing/confiscation, extortion, forced labor, taking credit for work of others, and so on. The entire thing was a bubble, built off of lies, pain, and suffering.
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  #28884  
Old 02-07-2019, 06:52 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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But what is even your goal here? To assert that Nazism is bad? Yeah no shit we all agree with that.
No, that is not my goal. You made the following assertions:
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I am not an expert but I've read that economically Nazis were rather centrist (for the time) and Keynesians, in fact very similar to FDR's America so they were as leftwing as the US at worst.
In a modern political context of the US this would make them quite leftwing, Bernie Sanders leftwing. In Europe this would make them somewhere from center-right to moderate left depending on who you asked. Again this is just talking economics and leaving their opinions on social norms out of it.
I then replied to these points with (focusing here on the highlights):
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Not sure if I could call the Nazis economically leftwing either. The similarities with the Keynesian policies of the contemporary US may be more superficial than real. The goal of leftwing politics, presuming here that we are using Socialism as a benchmark, is the abolition of classes. Economic policies that attempt to maintain or exacerbate classism would be anti-leftwing.

Nazi economic policies were driven by their rightwing social ideology: (1) Anti-Socialism/Communism, (2) Anti-Semitism, (3) The War Machine, and (4) Social Darwinism.

...

The Third Reich is anti-Proletariat and pro-Bourgeoisie from its head down to its toes. All of this is impossible to reconcile with leftwing politics. These policies may not be "true Capitalism," but this is definitely economically more similar to capitalism than the leftwing socio-economic goals and policies of Socialism. Nazi Germany was definitely rightwing economically as well.
So I think that my goal is abundantly clear as I state it often enough at the beginning and restate it at the end. I do not believe that the Nazis were economically centrist or leftwing. I argued that their economic policies are indicative of rightwing economic policies that are reflective of their social beliefs.

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But if you set out to make it out as 100% evil for evil's sake then people will just roll their eyes and move on. It was horrible, probably the most horrible thing in history but it was not 100% evil. It had its good sides, if only for the ethnic Germans but still. That is how it got to power, by seeming like a good idea to a large number of people and not by some cartoonish evil. If you set out to make it even worse than it already is you don't gain much, most people will just raise their hands, declare it evil and move on. But that is a bad approach since if people don't understand how it happened they don't understand how it can happen again and can't defend against it. That is why truth matters and even twisting it in hopes of achieving a good result is a bad idea.
I have not said or argued that Nazis won appeal through cartoonish evil. That is your strawman that should be excised from future discussion. I also disagree with you here, as this overview also ignores major steps in how Nazis reached and maintained power through undemocratic means. Though their earlier rise to power was aided, in no small part, due to them piggybacking on a coalition of other rightwing parties, who (1) magnified their voice, and (2) helped mainstream and normalize the appearance of their policies. (Particularly the 1929 German Referendum.)

This is also why the idea I find the idea that the Nazis were economically centrist to be far fetched when examining the evidence. When we look at their bedfellows, allies, and associates, they are not centrists or a mixed coalition of contextually rightwing/leftwing parties, as one would expect from "centrists." Their associates were industrialists, corporations, anti-democrats, fellow nationalists, and rightwing parties.

Last edited by Genesis; 02-07-2019 at 07:15 AM..
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  #28885  
Old 02-13-2019, 09:22 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Two big tragedies in Brazil this year.




A very important news anchor has also died this week



On another note, this is what happens when you have Black Friday without Thanksgiving:
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  #28886  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:56 PM
Saranus Saranus is online now

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Damn. Stay safe, ye Brazilians.
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  #28887  
Old 02-16-2019, 07:06 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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2 months ago: https://www.rferl.org/a/lukashenka-s.../29656460.html

Today: https://themoscowtimes.com/news/were...nko-says-64517

Hmmm. Seems like there may have been some persuasion here.
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  #28888  
Old 02-16-2019, 10:24 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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2 months ago: https://www.rferl.org/a/lukashenka-s.../29656460.html

Today: https://themoscowtimes.com/news/were...nko-says-64517

Hmmm. Seems like there may have been some persuasion here.
Let's ignore Russia, that'll make it go away!
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