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  #151  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:43 AM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
The whole shtick of the series is that a group of people who normally wouldn't have anything to do with each other has to band together to save the world from ending. Most of the time they succeed. With a couple of exceptions, this always takes place on a different world with a different cast every game, and there've been 14 numbered games with only-diehard-nerds-know how many spinoffs.

So your line of

made me realize that if a storyline that centers on the end-of-the-world is old hat to you, the Final Fantasy series in particular and most games in general probably offend your sensibilities.

There's nothing wrong with that; it just means you're hard to please.
Well, I should ask. Do these games come packaged with cheesy, over the top scripts, messianic characters who the developers use to try to prove that their way is best, and complete flanderization and embarrassment given to characters that fans of the older game in the series used to love?

How about straw man villains, villains with no motivation, or villains that you honestly don't care one whit about? Plotlines that you could see coming from a mile away with no variation or excitement?
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  #152  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:10 AM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
Well, I should ask. Do these games come packaged with cheesy, over the top scripts, messianic characters who the developers use to try to prove that their way is best, and complete flanderization and embarrassment given to characters that fans of the older game in the series used to love?

How about straw man villains, villains with no motivation, or villains that you honestly don't care one whit about? Plotlines that you could see coming from a mile away with no variation or excitement?
Depends on who you ask and which of the now 14+ Final Fantasy games out there. Kind of like any games that happen to take place in the same universe.
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  #153  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:32 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Depends on who you ask and which of the now 14+ Final Fantasy games out there. Kind of like any games that happen to take place in the same universe.
Pretty much this.
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  #154  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:40 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Depends on who you ask and which of the now 14+ Final Fantasy games out there. Kind of like any games that happen to take place in the same universe.
I think it is all part of a greater cycle, like just about anything in human culture. First you have people who get tired of over the top, bigger then life plots and heroes. Then stories evolve to please the new prevailing crowd with nuanced, artsy, dark, ambiguous, etc plots. Over time an increasing number of people gets fed up with these "boring" stories and they cry out for characters to stop whining and go to kick some ass... and the pendulum swings again.

This is just for the majority though, there will always be people who want something different and accordingly there will be stories tailored for them.
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  #155  
Old 03-05-2013, 05:50 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
Well, I should ask. Do these games come packaged with cheesy, over the top scripts, messianic characters who the developers use to try to prove that their way is best, and complete flanderization and embarrassment given to characters that fans of the older game in the series used to love?

How about straw man villains, villains with no motivation, or villains that you honestly don't care one whit about? Plotlines that you could see coming from a mile away with no variation or excitement?
I should toss FFVI at you sometime. Now where did I leave those files...
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #156  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:36 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
I should toss FFVI at you sometime. Now where did I leave those files...
Or Planescape: Torment. No saving the universe there, just setting your own very, very messed up and mind-screwy issues in order.
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  #157  
Old 03-05-2013, 10:57 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think it is all part of a greater cycle, like just about anything in human culture. First you have people who get tired of over the top, bigger then life plots and heroes. Then stories evolve to please the new prevailing crowd with nuanced, artsy, dark, ambiguous, etc plots. Over time an increasing number of people gets fed up with these "boring" stories and they cry out for characters to stop whining and go to kick some ass... and the pendulum swings again.

This is just for the majority though, there will always be people who want something different and accordingly there will be stories tailored for them.
I don't see things in terms of false dichotomies though. I don't believe we should have to choose between angsty dark and cheesy good.

As for the final fantasy comparison. I'm only really seeing a non answer. Can someone give me a point by point comparison to show that the model is successful?
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  #158  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:11 PM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
I don't see things in terms of false dichotomies though. I don't believe we should have to choose between angsty dark and cheesy good.
I agree. Warcraft 2 had a good mix of dark and comical elements, I chuckled a bit when I first saw the orc buildings with christmas lights on them. Since then, the comedy has taken a front seat while the "dark" stuff remains largely underdeveloped.
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  #159  
Old 03-06-2013, 01:15 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
I don't see things in terms of false dichotomies though. I don't believe we should have to choose between angsty dark and cheesy good.
You misunderstood me, for example evil can be cheesy too while good guy can be clever and engaging if written subtly. A work can have both, but that is rare since the two styles involve different approaches to writing. Certainly there is no inherent dichotomy but I've never said that.

I am just saying that the people's favor falls on one style (subtle, nuanced, thought provoking) or the other (flashy, obvious, rule of cool) in cycles, as explained in that post.
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  #160  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:14 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
As for the final fantasy comparison. I'm only really seeing a non answer. Can someone give me a point by point comparison to show that the model is successful?
It depends on what you define as "successful."

If you're asking about whether or not the games have made money, the answer is yes and it's hand over fist. If you're asking about whether players are universally satisfied with the quality of the story, the answer is "you can't please everyone all the time" and also "Square REALLY WANTS TO MAKE MOVIES but can't so they make games that are just movies where you push buttons every now and again."

I brought up Final Fantasy because you talked about hating the mechanism of "end of the world" as a plot device, specifically because the "end of the world" is ultimately the whole point of each game in the franchise. The quality of the characters and the quality of the storytelling in each game varies widely, and I won't waste words making a comparison to Blizzard's quality because I don't think Eastern and Western game developers are anywhere close to being wired similarly when it comes to game/story design.

You're welcome to disregard and carry on about how Blizzard can do no right because they can't conjure a story more nuanced than "oh shit the world/universe is on the line go team hero." Even if, for the most part, the plot of MOST VIDEOGAMES can be reduced to exactly that.
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  #161  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:23 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
It depends on what you define as "successful."

If you're asking about whether or not the games have made money, the answer is yes and it's hand over fist. If you're asking about whether players are universally satisfied with the quality of the story, the answer is "you can't please everyone all the time" and also "Square REALLY WANTS TO MAKE MOVIES but can't so they make games that are just movies where you push buttons every now and again."

I brought up Final Fantasy because you talked about hating the mechanism of "end of the world" as a plot device, specifically because the "end of the world" is ultimately the whole point of each game in the franchise. The quality of the characters and the quality of the storytelling in each game varies widely, and I won't waste words making a comparison to Blizzard's quality because I don't think Eastern and Western game developers are anywhere close to being wired similarly when it comes to game/story design.

You're welcome to disregard and carry on about how Blizzard can do no right because they can't conjure a story more nuanced than "oh shit the world/universe is on the line go team hero." Even if, for the most part, the plot of MOST VIDEOGAMES can be reduced to exactly that.
I know that I'm putting the onus on you for this, and I apologize, but I really need more specificity on the elements before I start to buy this argument. What are the specifics of the plots? How do they compare with Warcraft? How exactly are they similar other than your perception that they're all end-of-the-world plots?
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  #162  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:32 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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While they have end of the world plots, they also have other things going on. Character arcs and such.

Cataclysm, on the other hand, can be summed up as Deathwing (end of the world), the faction war, Wrathion, and the Zandalari (a slightly sympathetic antagonist). Excluding Wrathion and everyone who dies, everyone ends Cataclysm the same way they started it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #163  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:01 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
I know that I'm putting the onus on you for this, and I apologize, but I really need more specificity on the elements before I start to buy this argument. What are the specifics of the plots? How do they compare with Warcraft? How exactly are they similar other than your perception that they're all end-of-the-world plots?
I'm not sure of the argument here. You said you disliked the end-of-the-world plot repetition in Cataclysm/Wings of Liberty, I said there are lots of other games with end-of-the-world plots and threw out the non-Final-ness of Final Fantasy as an example.

I'm not making the argument that "because other games have end-of-the-world plots, Raintree should accept that it's okay for Blizzard to have end-of-the-world plots."

If I'm making an argument at all, it's "other games have end-of-the-world plots, and Raintree doesn't like them." I don't like horror movies. *shrug*
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  #164  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:04 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
I'm not sure of the argument here. You said you disliked the end-of-the-world plot repetition in Cataclysm/Wings of Liberty, I said there are lots of other games with end-of-the-world plots and threw out the non-Final-ness of Final Fantasy as an example.

I'm not making the argument that "because other games have end-of-the-world plots, Raintree should accept that it's okay for Blizzard to have end-of-the-world plots."

If I'm making an argument at all, it's "other games have end-of-the-world plots, and Raintree doesn't like them." I don't like horror movies. *shrug*
Alright, it sounds like I'm not going to get a straight answer.
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  #165  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:16 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
I know that I'm putting the onus on you for this, and I apologize, but I really need more specificity on the elements before I start to buy this argument. What are the specifics of the plots? How do they compare with Warcraft? How exactly are they similar other than your perception that they're all end-of-the-world plots?
Didn't somebody previously say that most of the works happen in separate universes?

That is a total game changer, because that makes FF a franchise that specializes in universes that are ending. While warcraft has a single universe that has been under the threat of ending, what, six times in the last twelve in-universe years? And that was a conservative estimate.

I think that is one of the major storytelling issues of WoW, people never seem to catch a break. Seriously at this point I'd be expecting all of the societies of Azeroth to be breaking down under the strain of continuous warfare. A timeskip is sorely needed.
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  #166  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:18 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Didn't somebody previously say that most of the works happen in separate universes?

That is a total game changer, because that makes FF a franchise that specializes in universes that are ending. While warcraft has a single universe that has been under the threat of ending, what, six times in the last twelve in-universe years? And that was a conservative estimate.

I think that is one of the major storytelling issues of WoW, people never seem to catch a break. Seriously at this point I'd be expecting all of the societies of Azeroth to be breaking down under the strain of continuous warfare. A timeskip is sorely needed.
It's factors like this which induce me to ask for more clarification. We have to ensure that we're making an apples to apples comparison.
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  #167  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
Well, I should ask. Do these games come packaged with cheesy, over the top scripts, messianic characters who the developers use to try to prove that their way is best, and complete flanderization and embarrassment given to characters that fans of the older game in the series used to love?

How about straw man villains, villains with no motivation, or villains that you honestly don't care one whit about? Plotlines that you could see coming from a mile away with no variation or excitement?
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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
What are the specifics of the plots? How do they compare with Warcraft? How exactly are they similar other than your perception that they're all end-of-the-world plots?
There are definitely ups and downs in the franchise for those. I think, rather than trying to explain each plot and how they differ from each other and WoW, you would be better off reading up on that yourself. Particularly for games like FFIV, FFVI, FFVII and FFIX. Would it help if you had some links to main characters/villians so you could judge for yourself? I mentioned those four games as I consider them the best in the FF franchise for how much I was able to invest myself in the story, really caring about nearly all of the main characters.
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  #168  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:53 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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There are definitely ups and downs in the franchise for those. I think, rather than trying to explain each plot and how they differ from each other and WoW, you would be better off reading up on that yourself. Particularly for games like FFIV, FFVI, FFVII and FFIX. Would it help if you had some links to main characters/villians so you could judge for yourself? I mentioned those four games as I consider them the best in the FF franchise for how much I was able to invest myself in the story, really caring about nearly all of the main characters.
The specific numbers do help. Thank you.
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