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  #11701  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:13 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Dear Michelle Obama,

Please stop talking. I am already losing the battle in convincing my parents that Trump is a terrible human being, and people on the left who think and speak like you are not helping. My father is a divorced dad himself. My mother is remarried to someone who is a divorced dad. They believe you are representative of "the left", that you are against them specifically, and that you are stupid.

I understand that Donald Trump says moronic garbage all the time and only gets more popular, and none of us understand why it works for him, but we do understand that it doesn't work for anyone else. So please stop talking.
What did she say?
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  #11702  
Old 04-18-2019, 06:15 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
What did she say?
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And we come from a broken family. We're a teenager, we're a little unsettled and having good parents is tough. Sometimes you spend weekends with divorced dad, that feels like it's fun, but then you get sick — that's what America is going through. We're kind of living with divorced dad right now.
I understand the metaphor, and I might agree with her on the literal meaning regarding Trump. Yet I'm stuck on the metaphor because of the stereotyping. And who knows, maybe her narrative comes from her husband's personal experiences in a divorced household? But it's not universal. And it pushes the subconscious message of "divorced mom = always heroic and hardworking" vs. "divorced dad = always lazy and negligent".

When you think about the sheer number of divorced fathers, of women who remarried divorced fathers and are defensive to them, and children of divorced fathers who had balanced experiences and are defensive of them, you've cut through a huge swath with your sex discrimination. You've just directly compared all divorced fathers to Donald Trump - assuming people will understand that as a negative in both directions.

THAT BEING SAID, she's not a politician. She shouldn't have the higher standards we apply (or should apply) to chuckleheads like Trump. But still. When people on "the left" say things like that, they only push people near "the right" further away.
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  #11703  
Old 04-18-2019, 09:31 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Makes sense you're losing the battle if these are the type of nonsense subjects being discussed. Literally had no idea she said anything or that it was controversial until just now. Please, get out of whatever media bubble you are in where this non-story is trending. The President is garbage human being but it's somehow a former first lady's responsibility to maintain some made up standard of propriety? Get outta here with this bs.

Just show them this:
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  #11704  
Old 04-18-2019, 09:41 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post

THAT BEING SAID, she's not a politician. She shouldn't have the higher standards we apply (or should apply) to chuckleheads like Trump. But still. When people on "the left" say things like that, they only push people near "the right" further away.
That's such an incredibly benign metaphor given how much Trump and other folks go off on.
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  #11705  
Old 04-18-2019, 09:44 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
That's such an incredibly benign metaphor given how much Trump and other folks go off on.
I guess? It feels like if you switch it to make the mom be irresponsible, or have the metaphor be about hiring a black man who does inferior work... you cringe a little.
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  #11706  
Old 04-18-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I guess? It feels like if you switch it to make the mom be irresponsible, or have the metaphor be about hiring a black man who does inferior work... you cringe a little.
Introducing race wouldn't really be equivalent at all

And Id argue that there are different stigmas around divorced men and women but theyd be equivalent in this case as relatively benign or ignorable
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  #11707  
Old 04-18-2019, 05:25 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
Makes sense you're losing the battle if these are the type of nonsense subjects being discussed. Literally had no idea she said anything or that it was controversial until just now. Please, get out of whatever media bubble you are in where this non-story is trending. The President is garbage human being but it's somehow a former first lady's responsibility to maintain some made up standard of propriety? Get outta here with this bs.

Just show them this: https://twitter.com/i/status/1118228314257350657
"Get out of the media bubble... except mine, the one I live in is always right and you can trust it."

Listen to yourself.
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  #11708  
Old 04-18-2019, 07:37 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
"Get out of the media bubble... except mine, the one I live in is always right and you can trust it."

Listen to yourself.
That's not exactly what he said. He said that if you're getting up and arms about the former first lady saying something that might be viewed poorly in the right light then you're probably not paying attention to real issues and you may be at risk of polarization.

EDIT: Of course, Saran isn't always as diplomatic about these things as I think he ought to be.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #11709  
Old 04-18-2019, 07:40 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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That's not exactly what he said. He said that if you're getting up and arms about the former first lady saying something that might be viewed poorly in the right light then you're probably not paying attention to real issues and you may be at risk of polarization.
Then make that point but it defeats his argument when he links a media rag he personally follows and has polarizing views of their own and tells Grackle to use that as an argument after just telling him to leave the media bubble.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 04-18-2019 at 07:43 PM..
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  #11710  
Old 04-18-2019, 07:45 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Then make that point but it defeats his argument when he links a media rag he personally follows and has polarizing views of their own.
I mean, this is the problem, people make it their goal to rub their 'enemies' faces in the shit they stir up from the worst of the other side.

That said, however, I think the words of a former first lady and Democrat are unlikely to carry the same weight as the words of the Republican's most popular candidate for President. And I am personally kind of terrified by how much Trump can get away with.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #11711  
Old 04-18-2019, 07:54 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I mean, this is the problem, people make it their goal to rub their 'enemies' faces in the shit they stir up from the worst of the other side.

That said, however, I think the words of a former first lady and Democrat are unlikely to carry the same weight as the words of the Republican's most popular candidate for President. And I am personally kind of terrified by how much Trump can get away with.
My advice that's less polarizing would be not to convince people away from their convictions, because it's an exercise in futility. Let them have their own thoughts and come to their own conclusion whether that changes their mind or solidifies their viewpoint further.

I don't politically align with my parents either, but nor would I care to do that because I just think talking about politics at all with family is a bad idea and a waste of time that could be better spent enjoying it with them.

EDIT: Of course now that it just comes to my mind, I would also say that demonstrating empathy and understanding is a strong method of changing someone's mind. If your parents like Trump then you have to use arguments other than "he's a piece of shit" to convince them why they shouldn't like Trump, otherwise you won't get very far. You have to show genuine understanding for why they like Trump.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 04-18-2019 at 08:43 PM..
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  #11712  
Old 04-18-2019, 09:03 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
And I am personally kind of terrified by how much Trump can get away with.
What terrifies me is that there's already a sense of inevitability that he'll win the next election, that there's nothing anybody can do about it. And then, in 2024, he'll just disappear. And the legacy he'll leave is that we Americans are so hilarious, we'll elect a burlap sack of farts to be president for eight years, and then go about our day.

I wonder sometimes if this current stage of American history is, like, really trippy if you experience it while high.

EDIT: I'm being slightly dishonest. My dad became a Trumpetet after the election, sure. My mom and stepdad think Trump's a piece of shit, but they vote for him anyway because the Democratic platform and frontrunners terrify them. I voted for a third-party nobody in 2016, and I'll probably do the same again in 2020. But I live in Texas, so it'll be red anyway.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 04-18-2019 at 09:09 PM..
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  #11713  
Old 04-18-2019, 09:08 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
"Get out of the media bubble... except mine, the one I live in is always right and you can trust it."

Listen to yourself.
Nice. This is pretty much a textbook strawman.
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  #11714  
Old 04-18-2019, 09:52 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Nice. This is pretty much a textbook strawman.
It's not but whatever you say, I don't really come here to care about having a debate but just to have a good laugh at the dumb shit I read here.
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  #11715  
Old 04-19-2019, 06:25 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
It's not but whatever you say, I don't really come here to care about having a debate but just to have a good laugh at the dumb shit I read here.
Typical. Called out for bullshit and retreat to "I'm not really debating". Seriously, that's what you're coming back with?

Because you literally did just strawman me. You put words in quotation marks that I didn't say, followed by "Listen to yourself". How else is anyone supposed to interpret this?

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A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."
How did you not do exactly this? Most people wouldn't make the mistake of putting their strawman argument in actual quotation marks.
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  #11716  
Old 04-19-2019, 06:52 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
because the Democratic platform and frontrunners terrify them.
...Why?
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  #11717  
Old 04-19-2019, 07:23 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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...Why?
Economic and immigration reasons, mostly. They've both opposed the Democrats' economic platforms for their entire lives, and in modern times the seemingly more socialist/tax-increasing Democrats shy them away even more.

My stepgrandmother, from her end (she used to work in local politics in Iowa) is freaked out by younger "radical" congressmen like Ocasio-Cortez and Omar, who she perceives as uneducated amateurs with a frightening level of influence on their party because of media attention.

Trump definitely fits those accusations, and they don't like Trump, but they perceive him as a bumbling oaf who hasn't caused much party shift in the faction they've been voting toward for years.

Anyway, that's the best I can explain it. You guys know I'm not much of an economic voter myself. As for me, I'm in the uncomfortable position of opposing Trump but secretly/painfully being glad to have his justices instead of Obama's or Hillary's. Life is complicated. He'll be gone in 2024, at least.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 04-19-2019 at 07:29 AM..
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  #11718  
Old 04-19-2019, 10:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Economic and immigration reasons, mostly. They've both opposed the Democrats' economic platforms for their entire lives, and in modern times the seemingly more socialist/tax-increasing Democrats shy them away even more.

My stepgrandmother, from her end (she used to work in local politics in Iowa) is freaked out by younger "radical" congressmen like Ocasio-Cortez and Omar, who she perceives as uneducated amateurs with a frightening level of influence on their party because of media attention.

Trump definitely fits those accusations, and they don't like Trump, but they perceive him as a bumbling oaf who hasn't caused much party shift in the faction they've been voting toward for years.

Anyway, that's the best I can explain it. You guys know I'm not much of an economic voter myself. As for me, I'm in the uncomfortable position of opposing Trump but secretly/painfully being glad to have his justices instead of Obama's or Hillary's. Life is complicated. He'll be gone in 2024, at least.
I'm sorry but I really can't feel either of their concerns are valid or reasonable. Trump's tax plan is atrocious Ocasio-Cortez may be radical but frankly radical is what we need right now, and I don't think she or Omar are uneducated.

I think there are certainly people who want them to be seen that way though.
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  #11719  
Old 04-19-2019, 01:07 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Typical. Called out for bullshit and retreat to "I'm not really debating". Seriously, that's what you're coming back with?

Because you literally did just strawman me. You put words in quotation marks that I didn't say, followed by "Listen to yourself". How else is anyone supposed to interpret this?



How did you not do exactly this? Most people wouldn't make the mistake of putting their strawman argument in actual quotation marks.
I already addressed this anyway, so you're the one ignoring it and wrongly using a fallacy. What you said is what you said, maybe you should word it better or, you know, actually demonstrate what I just said if your goal is to convince someone.

Or don't link media rags after lecturing about getting out of the media.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 04-19-2019 at 01:10 PM..
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  #11720  
Old 04-19-2019, 01:12 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Before this gets out of hand, a small reminder to remain civil.
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  #11721  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:24 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I already addressed this anyway, so you're the one ignoring it and wrongly using a fallacy. What you said is what you said, maybe you should word it better or, you know, actually demonstrate what I just said if your goal is to convince someone.

Or don't link media rags after lecturing about getting out of the media.
You... really haven't Grim. Nor is that what Saran said at all.
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  #11722  
Old 04-19-2019, 07:01 PM
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I think we'll be lucky if Trump disappears in 2024 and we go about our daily lives like nothing happened. We have too much of a social and climatological crisis on our hands for us to get away none the worse for eight years of this madman.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'm in the uncomfortable position of opposing Trump but secretly/painfully being glad to have his justices instead of Obama's or Hillary's. Life is complicated. He'll be gone in 2024, at least.
When the checks on Republican power are removed, you will be able to overturn laws that made abortion legal. I understand how that would appeal. You will also be able to secure stronger rights for corporations and illegalize gay marriage. Do you not consider it worrisome that Democratic justices are dying out? Do you think our democracy will survive a one party system, as long as it's your party?

EDIT: And another thing. Have those people who insisted for so long that first global warming was a hoax, then that there wasn't any evidence it was man-made, then that it wasn't anything to worry about, finally accepted that maybe they were, as I know Republicans so hate to be told, on the wrong side of history? Or are we still in denial of some kind?
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.

Last edited by Anansi; 04-19-2019 at 07:06 PM..
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  #11723  
Old 04-19-2019, 08:25 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I think we'll be lucky if Trump disappears in 2024 and we go about our daily lives like nothing happened. We have too much of a social and climatological crisis on our hands for us to get away none the worse for eight years of this madman.



When the checks on Republican power are removed, you will be able to overturn laws that made abortion legal. I understand how that would appeal. You will also be able to secure stronger rights for corporations and illegalize gay marriage. Do you not consider it worrisome that Democratic justices are dying out? Do you think our democracy will survive a one party system, as long as it's your party?

EDIT: And another thing. Have those people who insisted for so long that first global warming was a hoax, then that there wasn't any evidence it was man-made, then that it wasn't anything to worry about, finally accepted that maybe they were, as I know Republicans so hate to be told, on the wrong side of history? Or are we still in denial of some kind?

Repubs are afraid people on the left will go thought police or totalitarian about... I guess political correctness? Ruining the economy? I don't know.


The left is afraid of the right going full fascist race war, increasing corporate power, and the destruction of the environment.


I just... I wish there were a way to find common ground here but it just feels like we live in completely different worlds.
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  #11724  
Old 04-19-2019, 10:30 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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You... really haven't Grim. Nor is that what Saran said at all.
Whatever, you all have each others backs and will dogpile anyone with a dissenting opinion here.

And he tells ME to get my head out of the faction war's ass unironically when his head is so firmly in the quagmire of RL faction political warring.

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Repubs are afraid people on the left will go thought police or totalitarian about... I guess political correctness? Ruining the economy? I don't know.
Why don't you know?

You know, honestly, a common theme I get when I look here is you all think only right-wingers or Republicans or w/e are the only ones who make mountains out of molehills, yet I see crazy things happening like left-wingers making a big deal about the OK hand gesture and trying to tie it to racism, making a big stink about manspreading and calling it sexist, or spewing anti-white racism after watching the recent Joker trailer. It's kinda strange to me and I don't know where these reactions come from, but it is certainly a brand of crazy and overreactions if I ever saw one.
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  #11725  
Old 04-19-2019, 10:40 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
You know, honestly, a common theme I get when I look here is you all think only right-wingers or Republicans or w/e are the only ones who make mountains out of molehills, yet I see crazy things happening like left-wingers making a big deal about the OK hand gesture and trying to tie it to racism
"Haha, I bet if we get people to do a 👌 when doing white supremacist things and associate it with white supremacy, people will think it's associated with white supremacy in some contexts! Rubes!"

Tell me, Grimtale, are you anti-fascist?

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
making a big stink about manspreading and calling it sexist, or spewing anti-white racism after watching the recent Joker trailer. It's kinda strange to me and I don't know where these reactions come from, but it is certainly a brand of crazy and overreactions if I ever saw one.
Nobody cares about these. I know a lot of "left-wing" areas of the internet and their people and none of them care about any of this. Half of those I haven't even heard of. Whatever outrage machine feeding you is finding some weird and obscure things.
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