Jaina just radiating that Big Dick Energy.

Calling it now: Baine is going to get pissed at some point and take things into his own hands. Saurfang will sacrifice himself for the Alliance's survival, and Baine will have his "enough is enough" moment and smash tome heads. Also, Nathanos will betray Sylvanas, even if only in a subtle way (like not following a command or looking the other way), thought I guess he will die with her so they stay together.



(BTW, can we start calling Anduin, Jaina, Genn and Alleria the Fantastic Four of Warcraft?)

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I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of her.

Nathanos isn't gonna betray jackshit, he's a puppydog. Congratulations, we have found this expansion's Nazgrim.
Baine... i think Baine's gonna bite it. I have two theories.
Theory 1, kinda shot down by the time it must have taken to do the Old Soldier short, is basically this: Baine was supposed to become the new Warchief and got his moment in the sun in the Legion Outro.... but then Blizzard baine'd Baine, vol'jin'd Saurfang and Sylvanas is going to get garrosh'd either way. Basically, they abandoned Baine's storyline AGAIN for the benefit of another character. 'xcept this time i actually like the other guy, so, #OneShoulderForSaurfang. Baine may or may not die to entice Saurfang back into the fight. I could TOTALLY see Old Soldier working exceptionally well with Baine instead of Zappyboi, especially if they kill off Baine to ignite Civil War 2.0.
Theory 2: same as above, just without the abandonment. They've made Baine AWFULLY compliant with Sylvanas. Unless it's just shitty writing where they forgot to undo some early plans - maybe Big B is already planning something feisty. Old Soldier gave as a nice view into why Saurfang fights at the Battle of Lordaeron but given that he just kinda nopes out of his glorious death and willingly goes with the Alliance... i'm starting to wonder if Old Soldier isn't doing more damage to Saurfang's recent flipflopping decisionmaking. Doesn't make him look compassionate to the Ideal Of The Horde (tm), it just makes him look violently depressed. So... i could very much see 8.1 or 8.2 involving a very public decapitation of Baine or something to that effect. And Baine, much as i used to like him, is the perfect character to do that with: he's got FUCKALL to do, he hasn't been relevant since before they cut his own damn Warchief-storyarc and most players probably don't even know he's not Cairne.

TL/DR: Baine's probably toast, Saurfang's probably the new Warchief (i mean come on, his own render cinematic?) and Jaina might bite it too, she's got raid boss written all over her.

Does that make Turalyon Spider-Man?

I stand by my prediction.

What they made with Baine in this cinematic is the perfect setup for him to start his rise.

Saurfang will be the "hero" of this story, but that does not mean he survives.

Nathanos having second thoughts has been suggested four times already.

I said it several times and I say it again: do not expect SoO's events to be repeated. There's no Nazgrim this expansion. The Horde storyline is about its redemption and purge of the elements that have been plaguing it since the beginning.

You can't have redemption without sacrifice and growth.

He can be Herbie.

But I think his true purpose is not meant for this expansion. Or, at least for now, I don't see a specific role for him being hinted.

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The way Baine's portrayed in the cinematics, Sylvanas' dialogue implies she's "threatening" the living members of the Horde (by way of basically using them as fodder in the war over and above the Forsaken). Knowing that he doesn't have the physical strength to challenge Sylvanas for the title of Warchief, that politically he's unable to prove a reason to depose her, and that the Taurens' ability to survive are now intertwined with the Horde, he acquiesces to her veiled threat.

Lor'themar is an odd duck in these proceedings, basically seeming to be either complicit or a gullible patsy to everything. More than likely, one could argue he's a bit of both, namely that he assumes Sylvanas has a genuine belief in the Horde's existence more than is true, and thus assumes her tactics are valid (if horrific).

In terms of the other races, we know any given Goblin is going to go where the money is (in this case Sylvanas). We know the Trolls have an unfortunately spiritual attachment to her, by way of Vol'jin basically blessing her approach to ruling, and thus aren't going to challenge her as readily as they should. Finally, Saurfang just gave Sylvanas a giant thumbs up of approval by virtue of "sacrificing himself" for the cause. Those close to the veteran know he didn't actually do that, but Sylvanas can just spin the propaganda around his capture as if he did. Lord knows how any Pandaren are willing to tolerate Sylvanas' actions except that they're too damn drunk to understand how ridiculous events have gotten.

Overall, as things have been depicted so far, this is a case of Sylvanas knowing how to play each race's proverbial strings into positions balanced between the knife edge of oblivion (at the hands of the Alliance) and subservience. It's an imperfect balance and it will come back to haunt her, but it's a far cry better than Garrosh's dictatorial and xenophobic attempts (because in this case, she isn't attempting to divide the faction races against each other). So long as she keeps sacrificing heroes to the altar of war, and slowly building a cadre of loyalists to replace them, she'll have power. As soon as the race leaders find an opportunity to fall away from her though, she'll find that she has to delve into less political and more dangerous (read necromantic) options.

End prediction (aka, repeating what's probably been talked about for months/years in my absence): Much as I've always believed Blizzard doesn't want to remove factions, BfA is basically the new Cataclysm to effect a transition. Not that factions will officially end, but that the "Horde vs Alliance" classic concept will be changed out to allow for cross-race factions (not dissimilar to War3). It will become "Primal Honor" (Vanilla Horde) vs "Civilized Justice" (Vanilla Alliance) vs. "Pragmatic Survival" (Forsaken & Co.) vs. "Functional Evolution" (Chaotic elements from within each faction). More than likely these will be sub-factions (the real power underneath formal factions, not unlike political parties), but still acting as the primary story drivers.

As an example, we have Zandalar acting as a "Civilized Justice" group, whereas the Darkspears are the "Primal Honor" one. Trolls from other tribes fill in where necessary (e.g. Dark Trolls are Functional Evolution). Night Elves splinter into Primal for those who want to go back towards their pre-War3 days, Civilized for post, Pragmatic for those who want to pick-up pre-WotA (e.g. endless pursuit of power and control), and Functional going for truly wild/wanton power.

Why this prediction? Well, as of right now, there's no physical difference between Pandaren of opposing factions (one of the original arguments against cross-race factions) and similarly minimal between Night Elves and Nightbourne, and BElves and Void Elves.

In terms of arguing the merits of basic philosophies, they're now so muddled (e.g. Dark Iron [vs. Forsaken for moral grey/dark] and Lightforged [vs. BElves for fanaticism]) that we may as well just create formal splits and give players the ability to actually play their characters to the philosophy that they actually want to.

Plus that gives the writers actually functional options for story evolution and characterization (e.g. how would a primal Kul'tiran and Orc be able to stand beside each other in battle?) within the factions while they expand the overall story arc into the Army of Light vs. the Void.

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Rationalizing the irrational since 2005.

Man those ending cinematics are soo comic book-like. Yeah have the 4 leaders of the army go alone, without guards or anything, in a room that could contain who knows what, and try to have a reasonable talk while being mocked by the enemy general that you have every reason to kill on the spot. Just makes the Alliance leadership look so weak and stupid, and Sylvanas an overly smug bitch that in reasonable settings wouldn't even be let to talk before being blasted into pieces or at least captured quickly.
I appreciated that they tried to make a bit of a paralel to Warcraft 3 having it all take place in the throne room, but to me it just makes it more obvious how much Warcraft changed over the years, from the overly flashy animations to how comic book like the dialogue and events are.

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Yeah... when Alleria heard that little noise i fully expected half a dozen Dark Rangers to pop into every single one of those wall balkonies...

I see it as limitations of the medium. Since Warcraft 3, Warcraft has been about the kings and heroes, not the armies. Everything is personal, so they phase out the armies in order to focus the story.

Also, not showing huge armies reduces costs.

It's cheap, but I don't count it as "bad storytelling" in principle, as it's the style of the story (and style is an artistic choice).

I didn't see it as her threatening the Horde. Rather, presenting a choice: you can either have honor or care about your people. Sylvanas has put the "good" members of the Horde in a conundrum: The Alliance is coming for them. It's war, and Sylvanas is Warchief. You can stay by her side and have a way to lead your people to victory, or you can stand aside and let her lead alone.

That's why Baine answers only "For the Horde". He's not doing it for her, but because he wants to see his people survive this war.

This is the same choice Saurfang had in the cinematic. He went to die, but Zekhan made him realize that there's still innocents in the Horde, so he stayed for them.

One of my (tiny) gripes with the cinematic is that ending.

Jaina already had her big entrance, so she being the only one using some magic trick to save them felt unnecessary. I'd rather see all of them acting together to escape. Like:

- The Void alerts Alleria, who warns the others an instant before the trap is sprung.
- Genn pushes Anduin away from Sylvanas just as she turns into a banshee, implying she would hurt him
- As the blight surrounds them, Anduin is the one to shield them in holy Light
- Jaina teleports them away.

Everyone standing together. As the Alliance is meant to be.

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There was definitely a veiled threat from Sylvanas. Her dialogue included a very direct mention of the "living" members of the Horde for that reason. It wasn't a direct threat in that she was saying she'd kill anyone, but rather that she's forcing him to be a "responsible" leader and care for those who Sylvanas will treat more callously. This is why Baine's response is "For the Horde", with the double entendre being that he's not saluting her, but rather sticking around for everyone else's sake. It's also a reference to her supposed heroism at the beginning of the Battle for Lordaeron where she uses that as a rallying cry, with Baine intending it as a "I know what you really are/that won't rally me and mine ever again."

In terms of why Jaina just covered everyone's asses, that's because she already showed how powerful she is, and with a limited amount of time/direction given the pacing of the cinematic, she was an efficient vehicle for their escape. It also highlights that she's now a major player in the coming conflict instead of just "one of the team." Kind of like how certain characters drop to the wayside each expansion to make room for other story arcs to complete first.

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Rationalizing the irrational since 2005.

... actually... is it?

Hear me out on that one.
Yesyesyes we all know what WE would have the Alliance do, not SoO'ing a second time, installing overlords, probably weed out the Orcs and Forsaken for good measure; let's forget what would happen in Real Life too.
The constraints of needing to keep two playable Factions alive - even if only by a token amound, and frankly i'm wondering where the Horde is bunkering it's Spaarti-Cylinders - have seeped into the actual lore. Have for a long time. We can't just go "Oh, the Alliance is comming for the Horde" without thinking: "Sooo, what's that actually mean?"
The Alliance, by and large, are the Good Guys. Even back when that was more or less coincidental they opted to simply put the Orcs in slave labor camps - no, not particularly nice but considering the alternatives still pretty civilized towards the people who were just the other month eating human babies, probably literally. "The Alliance is comming for the Horde." Okay, like the last time? When they just walked streight back out of "Vol'Jin"'s city? Like when the Alliance got drycocked at the Broken Front? Like when the Warsong lumbererd nightelf lumber despite being told not to? Like when Jaina had to be talked out of pulling a Tel'drasil on Durotar?
'cause next to Genn, who's a very good boi and probably doesn't even have the numbers to try something, Jaina's just about the only true and proper warmonger the Alliance HAS right now, and we don't even know how bad she is yet, memes and delightful bondage outfit aside. If the Horde has reason to shit their pants it's basically because of Jaina and Jaina alone. And Jaina can be talked to. She might not keep your crap intact but she's probably letting you evacuate first.

"The Alliance is comming for all of us". Is it? Is it really? Does anyone see Manduin stroking his lightforged beard and go "Aaaah, yeeeees, let's kill ALL Orcs."? I'd be hardpressed to believe that he'd do more than install some barracks in Horde-land should he ever get to play with Kalimdor, and probably propagate piece in a generation or two. The Alliance's High King is a reasonable man, his right hand watch dog at a short leash, his queen (i totally ship that) can be talked to and.... well i mean i guess Alleria's just kinda there.

Best case scenario for Baine, should he take his people away from the Horde? Probably being welcommed into the Alliance, with open arms.
Worst case: probably internment camps for the short term, very likely let go for good behaviour to help resocialize the rest of the Horde. Or: resolialize THE HORDE. Maybe that's just inherently a problem with the way BFA wants it's FACTION War to be displayed but so far i really only see "Sylvanas versus literally everybody else".

Anduin even took Saurfang prisoner to discuss "how honour could be regained" and one of the first things out of his mouth to Sylvanas was "You took the Horde to a place without Honor."

Anduin cares more about the Horde than Sylvanas does. It's almost sickeningly Ironic

Baine has no reason to trust the Alliance. He may trust Anduin, but not the Alliance itself. Remember that the Alliance caused a lot of pain in the Barrens, even if they had justified reasons. Also, even if he accepts surrender, his people may not accept it. And you never know if the overseers sent by the Alliance will be kind of corrupt.

Also, I think Baine does not want to leave the Horde. He does not care only for the tauren, but for the orcs, the trolls, and he probably does not believe he can convince them to surrender with him. He expects the Horde to fix itself, and feels the need to stay there to make sure it can fix itself.

From our PoV, things are way simpler than from the character's PoV. But, if you say Blizzard need to show it better, then I'll agree.

Yeah, I understand it's a veiled threat, but not a direct one like: "I'll punish your people". It's more like: "If you are not here to care about your people, I'll be."

Like I said, it's a very minor complain. I just would like to see everyone acting together, that's all.

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I've heard joking about Anduin being made Warchief. That's pretty hilarious, right? ...right?

Baine who had to get explicitly told to not communicate with Anduin has more reasons to hold reservatons with Sylvanas than Anduin.

Like, thjat's just going off what we know. And everyting so far points to the Alliance having full aggro on Sylvanas. If the Horde Leaders stepped aside to clear the way, they'd have no issues taking her head an leaving.


Just like in MoP.

We've been here before, and everything int he groundwork down to the dialogue is setting up the stage again, it's just now it's a Speed run.

I could see the Tauren, or at least the Highmountain, joining a 3rd faction dominated by Night Elves. But that’s only if the factions divide.

Apparently, the burning of Teldrassil went too far even for Nathanos, so a small part of me thinks he way actually pull a Gofrey and shoot Sylvanas in the back.

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I get the vibe that he's going to do some really small act of treason (not obeying an order, looking the other way, hesitate in a dire moment) that ends up being her downfall. And then dies with her, so they can endure the afterlife together.

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Yup. I doubt it would happen, but I’d love to see an Allied Race of Alliance Banshees. Yes, Elf fatigue, but I think it hits Horde harder than Alliance.

HNNNNNNNNNG

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I can't tell if that's a joyful HNNNNGG or a painful one.

Just finished A Good War. My takeaways


- The description of how severely Saurfang chastised the soldiers who were drunk on duty is worthy of his Barrens chat reputation. “They were only still alive because shame wasn’t lethal.”

- Sylvanas makes a convincing case as to why a preemptive strike is necessary. Along those lines, Saurfang does ponder Greymane’s recent assassination attempt. The fact that Greymane could make such a brazen attack without authorization from his High King and suffer no consequences does send a message that I don’t think Anduin is conscious of. Still, I’m reminded of something my father used to tell me: the Devil will tell a thousands truths to convince you of one lie.

- I liked how the naval deficiencies of both sides were highlighted.

- It seems that, possibly in relation to this talk of a greater goal beyond the Alliance and Horde, Sylvanas is expecting resistance from higher powers like Elune. Old Gods? Naaru? Void Lords? Titan Keepers? When Sylvamas starts becoming more directly involved with Battle for Azeroth I expect to see more of these higher powers. Might have something to do with why the Loa want her in power.

- Even before Saurfang doesn’t take Malfurion’s Head, Sylvanas contemplates that Saurfang has the potential to become a very dangerous enemy. Sorry Baine fans, but this seems like pretty clear set up to me.

- Finally, it seems that Saurfang’s order to defy Sylvanas cane only after the first volley had been fired at the tree. The text literally says: “it was too late.”

Bought a month just to see what the game's like. Haven't bought the expansion.

Where the fuck is my life tap? How can I do Warlock things without cutting myself?

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I really enjoyed the Battle For Lordaeron, on both factions. The Horde has the cool bit of starting inside Undercity and fending off Night Elves, whereas the Alliance gets to fight some cool mini-bosses.

By the way, mark my words: the blight is going to be cleansed in the near future, with Azerite.

Before the Storm goes an extra mile to describe many times how Azerite can turn deadly poison into harmless juice and how it can be used for healing:











In the same book Sylvanas meets the heir of Lordaeron, Arthas' sister. If that's not foreshadowing, I don't know what it is.

Also, A Good War is glorious and everyone should read it. Here a few other parts I liked:

https://i.imgur.com/a4BAWRZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/4Tbhdkq.png

https://i.imgur.com/J4oJKVh.png

https://i.imgur.com/SJigQ1m.png

https://i.imgur.com/snAZVoX.png

https://i.imgur.com/T28ERla.png

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There are a few things I like to point here:

- Saurfang was defined as "too old" for leadership back in Cataclysm. Sure, Blizzard can just ignore that, but I'm kinda hopeful that their storytelling has improved.

- Saurfang's whole thing is attunement for his past crimes. He wants a honored death. I think the perfect end here for him is for him to achieve both in the most spectacular way possible.

- Saurfang being "the hero" does not mean he ends up being "the Warchief". If only Saurfang "saves" the Horde, then the problem is still there. There needs to be more people working for that. Baine's little rant in the cinematic is the kind of seed that a storyteller puts early in the story so it can get a result later. I may be seeing too much into it, but Baine, even if not the Warchief, will have a role to play later. Baine has been passive and people are disappointed in him, so he's perfect for an unexpected twist.

I'm assuming, of course, that Blizzard has gotten better in storytelling. Since Golden is working with them directly, not just writing a novel, I'm also assuming she has direct input into the narrative's direction. If that's the case, we will be seeing less of one character getting all the focus, and more of several characters having roles that lead to the great ending.

So, to conclude: I think Saurfang will be "the big damn hero" of the Horde, but several other Horde characters will have surprising roles. One of them is Baine, who, after Saurfang, is the one Horde leader whose morals are in the right place. He just needs the courage to follow them.

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