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  #476  
Old 11-26-2013, 09:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Amaile View Post
Did you notice that that wasn't what I quoted? The LGBT is bullied every single day. Teens are committing suicide because they don't fit into the perceived mainstream. The part that I bolded alone is the part that I have an issue with, as it pretends that the persecutions the LGBT community goes through is nothing more than a "choice", something that your very first sentence in your post summarized. I simply fail to see how there needs to be more of an incentive for pursuing heterosexual relations knowing that your sexual orientation or identity can -literally get you killed-. Do you, or anyone else for that matter, really need a citation for this point? A casual stroll through any news site should be more than adequate for anyone that isn't living under a rock in this one single regard. Your precious incentive already exists and obviously there's more to sexual orientation and identity than you or other likeminded individuals would like to believe.

Maybe you would like to rephrase your previous statement to suite the context of your agenda/argument more appropriately?
I don't condone the bullying of anyone. I wasn't super popular or anything in high school. People are bullied for having acme. People are bullied for being short. People are bullied for being sluts. People are bullied for being prudes. People are bullied for being fat. People are bullied for being skinny. I am sure you get the point. Having anyone get bullied to the point where they commit suicide is a bad thing.

According to this 81% of suicides for people 10-24 years are done by males. How big of an impact do you think homosexual bullyng had on that?
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  #477  
Old 11-26-2013, 09:32 PM
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Having a Mom and Dad is no more or less ideal than having a Mom and a Mom or a Dad and a Dad
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  #478  
Old 11-26-2013, 09:42 PM
Amaile Amaile is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
According to this 81% of suicides for people 10-24 years are done by males. How big of an impact do you think homosexual bullyng had on that?
Of course suicide is one side of the same coin (an extreme one at that), but surely isn't the only form of persecution (or as you like to term social issues lately, victimization) out there and you and I both know that.

But if you insist, some links I found while googling:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cri/18/1/24/

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...87/6/869.short

And one that is more leaning towards the "not enough evidence angle", whilst also suggesting that enough evidence supports that homosexual young adolescences are more likely to attempt suicide (of course, it's also a .com link, so take for what you will):

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...7#.UpWDcpDTmCg

Edit: I also apologize if abstracts are not enough as I am not really up to the task to dig through documents my college has free access to.


And, as for the 90%/10% number I threw up earlier, I do not have the direct source handy with me, as it was the statistical number of men who have engaged in what would be deemed homosexual activity from a sociology textbook printed in 2011. If I am able to provide something more concrete I will happily provide you with that data, also (if I recall correctly, the book reported something like 4% of males openly identifying as gay, in contrast to 1% of females - Obviously, I could be mistaken since it was a few years ago and not a topic that was committed to).

Last edited by Amaile; 11-26-2013 at 09:45 PM..
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  #479  
Old 11-26-2013, 09:43 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
Having a Mom and Dad is no more or less ideal than having a Mom and a Mom or a Dad and a Dad
I have two moms and a dad because I have a step mom. You will always have a biological mom and dad though. Even if you get artificially inseminated the dad will just be some guy that masturbated at a sperm bank and probably has tons of babies he doesn't know about. You can have adoptive parents and they can do a good job too.

Do you understand why you feel the way you do Sky?

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Originally Posted by Amaile View Post
Of course suicide is one side of the same coin (an extreme one at that), but surely isn't the only form of persecution (or as you like to term social issues lately, victimization) out there and you and I both know that.

But if you insist, some links I found while googling:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cri/18/1/24/

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...87/6/869.short

And one that is more leaning towards the "not enough evidence angle", whilst also suggesting that enough evidence supports that homosexual young adolescences are more likely to attempt suicide (of course, it's also a .com link, so take for what you will):

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...7#.UpWDcpDTmCg


And, as for the 90%/10% number I threw up earlier, I do not have the direct source handy with me, as it was the statistical number of men who have engaged in what would be deemed homosexual activity from a sociology textbook printed in 2011. If I am able to provide something more concrete I will happily provide you with that data, also (if I recall correctly, the book reported something like 4% of males openly identifying as gay, in contrast to 1% of females - Obviously, I could be mistaken since it was a few years ago and not a topic that was committed to).
I am not denying that homosexuals are picked on Amaile. I don't support or condone that.

Gallup did a poll on that %. Here it is.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/sp...tify-lgbt.aspx

Last edited by PajamaSalad; 11-26-2013 at 09:52 PM..
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  #480  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:01 PM
Amaile Amaile is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Gallup did a poll on that %. Here it is.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/sp...tify-lgbt.aspx
Thanks. Now I wish I had access to that textbook for the exact reference as many of the numbers differ from what I remember, but the context could also be very different, which seems likely. 'Cause you know, statistics.

Also, soapbox =/= anger, just to throw that out there.
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  #481  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:04 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Do you understand why you feel the way you do Sky?
You don't need a specific reason to not be a douchebag.
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  #482  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:06 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I have two moms and a dad because I have a step mom. You will always have a biological mom and dad though. Even if you get artificially inseminated the dad will just be some guy that masturbated at a sperm bank and probably has tons of babies he doesn't know about. You can have adoptive parents and they can do a good job too.

Do you understand why you feel the way you do Sky?
1. You know what I mean :|

2. I don't understand the question, why do I need a reason to believe a LGBT couple are essentially the same at raising kids as a hetero couple?

Both parents in either case are people.

All people are different.

I do not understand how it would be different aside from how other people might react.
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  #483  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:25 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Amaile View Post
Also, soapbox =/= anger, just to throw that out there.
I am scared Amaile!

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
You don't need a specific reason to not be a douchebag.
Do you think I am being a douchebag?

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
1. You know what I mean :|

2. I don't understand the question, why do I need a reason to believe a LGBT couple are essentially the same at raising kids as a hetero couple?

Both parents in either case are people.

All people are different.

I do not understand how it would be different aside from how other people might react.
It isn't because they are LGBT. I don't think of it as any different than a divorce parent that got remarried or a kid that was adopted.

Do you think people have no special connection to their biological parents? I know when I have kids I am going to see them differently than I see everyone else's kids. I see my father and mother in a different light than I see other people their age, including my step mom.
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  #484  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:27 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Do you think I am being a douchebag?
If you'd make things any more difficult for a given homosexual couple than a given heterosexual couple, yes.
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  #485  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:33 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
If you'd make things any more difficult for a given homosexual couple than a given heterosexual couple, yes.
What have I said that would do that? Why should people even need to be having sex or be in love to have the legal rights of marriage(like inheritance and hospital visitation.)
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  #486  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:50 PM
Amaile Amaile is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Do you think people have no special connection to their biological parents? I know when I have kids I am going to see them differently than I see everyone else's kids. I see my father and mother in a different light than I see other people their age, including my step mom.
I think people have a special bond with people that they -legitimately- care about. If I may use my own example for a moment here to demonstrate: A few years back, my sexual partner (it's a little complicated to describe since she's not really an ex, but nor is she my "girlfriend", marital spouse or fianc) conceived a child with another man behind my back. As much as what she did hurt me, since I personally prescribe to monogamy and commitment, I continue to care about her son as though it were my own legitimate child. That kind of connection with someone is -stronger- than blood. For all intents and purposes, her child is also mine, even if it isn't according to biology, but that doesn't stop how - I - feel. A parent is a parent, regardless of the biological makeup.
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  #487  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:54 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Amaile View Post
I think people have a special bond with people that they -legitimately- care about. If I may use my own example for a moment here to demonstrate: A few years back, my sexual partner (it's a little complicated to describe since she's not really an ex, but nor is she my "girlfriend", marital spouse or fianc) conceived a child with another man behind my back. As much as what she did hurt me, since I personally prescribe to monogamy and commitment, I continue to care about her son as though it were my own legitimate child. That kind of connection with someone is -stronger- than blood. For all intents and purposes, her child is also mine, even if it isn't according to biology, but that doesn't stop how - I - feel. A parent is a parent, regardless of the biological makeup.
Weak. You should have dropped her stone cold at that point. None of that "touchy feely" bullshit. Cheaters shouldn't prosper.
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  #488  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:32 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
You are perfectly free to think and say so. I don't really know why you would, because I think you'd be happier if you'd accept that people don't always work according to simple paradigms, but I can hardly change that. In any case, I don't have to prove anything to you, only to the medical community, whom I frankly trust on this subject more than you.
Well, it doesn't "really" matter what you think.... You are, of course, free ot think as you wish, but no matter what you think, do, say, ect... You will always be a man.

How you feel on the matter is irrelevant. Any operation you may or may not have is irrelevant.

You are a man. Period. End of discussion. It's a biological truth that cannot be shifted, denied or derailed.

How you identify? That's a bit different.

Perception is not reality, despite how the saying goes, and while those like you are free to do and think as they wish... It doesn't change biology.

Now, that isn't to say that there are not cases of men and woman who "feel" they belong to the other gender, because there certainly are..

And while it's almost assuredly a mental disorder (which should be read as "this isn't the normal way for the brain to function", and not something is wrong with you), who cares? As long as it's not a threat to anyone, as long as it doesn't impede you, it doesn't matter.

I mean, it's damn sad that primitive peoples hundreds of years ago were more progressive on this subject than many people are today.
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  #489  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:43 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Don't worry you perplex me too. We can look down on each other. I don't see where I attacked anyone.
Though Amaile is a bit brash, I'm inclined to agree with his/her conclusion. It does continually strike me as if you're arguing from a vantage point of a romanticised idea of how things would be.

A lot of people do, though. It's just that there's usually a visible or well explained reason for why or how they think that way. My impression of you is that you've read a lot of fairytales and books about "a good life" and have formed your opinions after that.

I'm not saying that's the way it is, by the way. I am merely stating that it's the impression I get from you, whenever you argue politics.

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You are a man. Period. End of discussion.
You don't actually know that. Transgenderism isn't always a psychosocial factor, chromosomes and genetics may very well play a part. Down Syndrome and Turners are examples of chromosomic malfunctions.

Do any of these apply to Xil? Maybe. Maybe not. I haven't seen her chart.

I'm guessing that neither have you, and that perhaps that should be an incentive to stop acting foolish.
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Last edited by Magistrix Verdande; 11-26-2013 at 11:48 PM..
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  #490  
Old 11-27-2013, 01:22 AM
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Damned. I couldn't sleep because I was sure I'd written faned...

PJ's stance is interesting, to say the least.

@Noitora: I wasn't really serious about enjoying this. If the thread was annoying already, seeing the same old argument wouldn't have made it less annoying. The fact that we have new players made it interesting this time, though.
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  #491  
Old 11-27-2013, 04:41 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Weak. You should have dropped her stone cold at that point. None of that "touchy feely" bullshit. Cheaters shouldn't prosper.
Yeah, exactly. Pathetic beta male behaviour. Well, to each their own I guess. Some people like being cuckolds, and I suppose male slaves are useful in their own way.
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  #492  
Old 11-27-2013, 05:36 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
Well, it doesn't "really" matter what you think.... You are, of course, free ot think as you wish, but no matter what you think, do, say, ect... You will always be a man.

How you feel on the matter is irrelevant. Any operation you may or may not have is irrelevant.

You are a man. Period. End of discussion. It's a biological truth that cannot be shifted, denied or derailed.

How you identify? That's a bit different.

Perception is not reality, despite how the saying goes, and while those like you are free to do and think as they wish... It doesn't change biology.

Now, that isn't to say that there are not cases of men and woman who "feel" they belong to the other gender, because there certainly are..

And while it's almost assuredly a mental disorder (which should be read as "this isn't the normal way for the brain to function", and not something is wrong with you), who cares? As long as it's not a threat to anyone, as long as it doesn't impede you, it doesn't matter.

I mean, it's damn sad that primitive peoples hundreds of years ago were more progressive on this subject than many people are today.
Terminology quibble. It's "genetic male." "Man" is a gender term, not a sex term, and not strictly based on biology. It's also a physiological disorder, not a mental one, which is why it takes physiological treatment to help it and why mental treatment doesn't work.
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  #493  
Old 11-27-2013, 05:43 AM
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In reference to PJ.

I don't entirely disagree with you about sexual relations being primarily socially constructed. It is quite clear that society dictates what is "acceptable" sexual attraction, and what isn't, and hence conditions people in such a way that they either have to fit in with the norm, or be an outsider and embrace their attraction to a member of the opposite sex.

However, this leads to the opposite effect of what you've mentioned. Society, in this case western society, inevitably constructs heterosexuality as primary, and homosexuality as a corrupt alternative. The result is that many people suppress homosexual attraction in favour of heterosexual attraction. Homosexual action is not usually "chosen" because it carries many social negatives.

I believe that pretty much everyone has the capability to be attracted to either sex, and that homosexuality and heterosexuality both are constructs. Judith Butler provides a nice treatise on this aspect. However, because sexuality is a continuum, those who are "more attracted" to those of the opposite sex generally lean toward heterosexual attraction, even if they could be attracted to a member of the same sex due to social conditioning and perceived disadvantages of those relations. Those who are "more attracted" to those of the same-sex are left with a dilemma. They have a strong desire for those of the same-sex, which society tells them is incorrect. The result is that different types of people deal with this is in different ways. Some try as hard as possible to suppress it and fail, resulting in emotional turmoil, and others flaunt it to try and rebel against the cultural norm. Others might feel perfectly fine either way.

There is a certain sect who emphasise the idea of an "LGBT community", but the reality is that this is just a construction. The performative action of sexual activity with those of the same-sex doesn't inevitably make one part of this "community". One is only part of it if one chooses. Therefore, it is wrong to associate those who engage in same-sex sexual contact and attraction with the "LGBT community".

A large amount of people with same-sex attraction do not associate with the so-called community. I am one of those people. Just as Judith Butler said, constructing the idea of a "community of others" is an innate accepting of the idea that non-normative gender and sexual identities are "other" to begin with. The reality is that homosexuality as a construct can only exist if heterosexuality exists. If heteronormativity was not placed on the pedestal of the primary, then homosexuality as an alternate behaviour would not exist. In other words, homosexuality depends on heterosexuality, but so to does heterosexuality depend on homosexuality. Without an other to define what it is not, heterosexuality could not exist. Instead, we'd all be attracted to whatever and it would not matter. This is the ideal circumstance.


In essence, what I'm trying to say is that "homosexuality" as a pure biological reality is false. However, it is also false that "heterosexuality" is a pure biological reality. Sexuality is not a binary that can be decoded in such a linear way, and environmental factors do influence whether people choose to engage with their same-sex attractions or not. However, the idea of being attracted to anyone, of any sex, is a biological reality. However, it is not limited by gender or sex.

Last edited by Eagan; 11-27-2013 at 05:51 AM..
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  #494  
Old 11-27-2013, 08:13 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Yeah, exactly. Pathetic beta male behaviour. Well, to each their own I guess. Some people like being cuckolds, and I suppose male slaves are useful in their own way.
People's ability to pass judgment on something they know nothing about never ceases to amaze me...
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  #495  
Old 11-27-2013, 08:22 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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  #496  
Old 11-27-2013, 08:28 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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In essence, what I'm trying to say is that "homosexuality" as a pure biological reality is false. However, it is also false that "heterosexuality" is a pure biological reality. Sexuality is not a binary that can be decoded in such a linear way, and environmental factors do influence whether people choose to engage with their same-sex attractions or not. However, the idea of being attracted to anyone, of any sex, is a biological reality. However, it is not limited by gender or sex.
The fact that Above-The-Waist Lesbians exist help support this argument.
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  #497  
Old 11-27-2013, 08:44 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Amaile View Post
I think people have a special bond with people that they -legitimately- care about. If I may use my own example for a moment here to demonstrate: A few years back, my sexual partner (it's a little complicated to describe since she's not really an ex, but nor is she my "girlfriend", marital spouse or fianc) conceived a child with another man behind my back. As much as what she did hurt me, since I personally prescribe to monogamy and commitment, I continue to care about her son as though it were my own legitimate child. That kind of connection with someone is -stronger- than blood. For all intents and purposes, her child is also mine, even if it isn't according to biology, but that doesn't stop how - I - feel. A parent is a parent, regardless of the biological makeup.
It takes a huge hearth t accept that and move on, I never could. I'd denounce her over the newspapers honesty. But I am very big on loyalty and such.
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  #498  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:00 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I didn't even read the story properly and now I realize it's even worse... he's talking about caring about the CHILD, not his ex. He says nothing about his relationship with his ex.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Terminology quibble. It's "genetic male." "Man" is a gender term, not a sex term, and not strictly based on biology. It's also a physiological disorder, not a mental one, which is why it takes physiological treatment to help it and why mental treatment doesn't work.
You have it so backwards, and the fact that there are self-proclaimed "experts" that feed you this horse shit is terribly, terribly sad.

It is a crime against humanity that people who call themselves doctors are telling their deranged patients that all they have is a gender identity crisis that can be solved by butchery and unnatural levels of hormone treatments.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:03 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
You have it so backwards, and the fact that there are self-proclaimed "experts" that feed you this horse shit is terribly, terribly sad.

It is a crime against humanity that people who call themselves doctors are telling their deranged patients that all they have is a gender identity crisis that can be solved by butchery and unnatural levels of hormone treatments.
Then bring it to The Hague, I think that's the standard venue for that charge.
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