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#51
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![]() Guru of Gilneas Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,290
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![]() Quote:
And none of which suggests that Kul'Tiras is any sort of republic. |
#52
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![]() Elune Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261
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![]() Barons seem to be the Warcraft equivalent of dukes.
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#53
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![]() Elune Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: St. M. of Tucumán, Argentina
Posts: 6,663
BattleTag: CEMOTucu#2138
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![]() Quote:
While monarchy can involve royalty, we know for sure that's not the case for Kul Tiras. And as I said in my first post, I believe the most neutral stance would be to name it "city-state of Kul Tiras" or "Merchant-nation of Kul Tiras", as the nation is named in Rise of the Lich King.
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FOR NYORLOTH, ALWAYS AND FOREVER!
Loremaster on ![]() (Spanish Warcraft Lore Community and Roleplay) Last edited by Cemotucu; 06-09-2015 at 07:06 PM.. |
#54
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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![]() But there are human dukes in the Warcraft.
In Warcraft III, there was Duke Lionheart. In World of Warcraft, there is Duke Nicholas Zverenhoff. Also, while not really a living human, there is this human death knight called Duke Lankral. Anyway, I am off the discussion about the government of Kul Tiras, since I think that I already said everything meaningful. Last edited by Marthen; 06-10-2015 at 12:14 AM.. |
#55
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![]() Guru of Gilneas Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,290
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![]() Quote:
And you still insist on it being a republic? |
#56
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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#57
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![]() Guru of Gilneas Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,290
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![]() Quote:
Cemotucu: Against your recent Kul Tiras edits on Wowpedia, it is possible for a state to be a city-state, a nation, and a kingdom. These are not mutually exclusive. Many ancient city-states were ruled by kings. Keep in mind these bits in The Seven Kingdoms in-game book: Quote:
Last edited by Genesis; 06-10-2015 at 03:15 AM.. |
#58
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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![]() Quote:
Anyway, if you either do not like this sort of thinking (which is quite common, even more so among scientists whose fields are working with an empirical or direct data), are a lore purist or just have a certain vision of Azeroth to which you are invested, I recommend you to pass over this work (with no hard feelings whatsoever), since there is going to be alot of cases like this. |
#59
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![]() Echo of the Past Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,180
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![]() Quote:
But here is my dilemma: I am a servant to the Second War. 1) I want to envision a Second War in which all the Tides of Darkness missions happened, in some form. 2) I want this vision of the Second War to be easily compatible with the modern state of lore. 3) Arthas Menethil (and to a lesser extent, Tirion Fordring) have storylines that rely on Stratholme being pristine and untouched after the Second War. As I've said before, I feel all of the WCII missions could have happened in their entirety while preserving the thematics of WCIII, all of those towns destroyed, except for Lordaeron City and Stratholme. They have to be around for WCIII. And not torn-down-then-rebuilt... Hillsbrad can be torn down and rebuilt because of its unassuming size, and Dalaran can because of its plot-enforced reconstructing magic... but not Stratholme. It's like, well, it's like Varian. In my make-believe universe of headfanon, I want Varian to have been in hiding in continental Azeroth throughout all of the Second War. That way the Kingdom of Azer...Stormwind can rally to reclaim their homeland, without a living king serving as morale crutch, giving them a strong sense of thematic nationalism akin to what we could feel in Warcraft II. Then after the war Varian could be brought out of hiding and all would be the same. BUT I CAN'T DO THAT, because there is too much in Arthas's and Varian's characterizations that require Varian to cross the Great Sea and set foot in Lordaeron as a child. As much as I feel his absence drives Stormwind nationalism in the Second War, his presence drives arguably more in the stories of Arthas and Varian combined. So he has to be there, regardless of the impression WCII:ToD gave. Along those same lines... the Culling of Stratholme is a definitive moment in Arthas's journey, and thus in the final journey of Lordaeron as we know it. The larger, grander, and more unblemished Stratholme is, the more poignant its destruction becomes. The Second War can't touch it. And that is why I choose instead to believe that Horde Mission 10 actually depicts the destruction of Darrowshire and consolidation of Darrowmere Lake. As tempting as it is to conceive of the Horde connecting from the Great Sea to the Frozen Sea... |
#60
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
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1. The one you described. 2. There are two Stratholmes. Southern guards the place where Thondoril river mouths into the lake of Darrowmere, northern guards the place where Thondoril mouths into the Darrowmere (Stratholme) bay. Those cities are twin cities (or sister cities?). Southern one gets destroyed (and in such a fashion that it is never rebuilt), northern survives. 3. There is only one Stratholme, and it is indeed attacked by the Horde, although it is not destroyed, apart from its oil facilities and port. At the moment, I am going with the third option, although I am not truly decided yet and the second one seems plausible as well. Last edited by Marthen; 06-10-2015 at 10:13 AM.. |
#61
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![]() Echo of the Past Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,180
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![]() Let me talk you about Dun Modr. I see you have the city-across-the-waters interpretation, allowing for both versions to exist until presumably the Arathi version is destroyed. A solid option.
Though, as time goes by, I'm finding more and more attractive the idea that the Horde crossed Thandol to invade Arathi, but then had to retreat back into the continent because the Alliance attacked their flank at Dun Modr---not straight on from the west, as in Warcraft II, but from behind them on Khaz Modan itself, as modern canon maps would imply (Alliance 5). The Horde would have had to retreat back to Khaz Modan to avoid being cut off, falling back past Dun Algaz (Alliance 6)... except those left behind, whose only option was to go for broke and strike Tol Barad with everything they had to reconnect their supply lines (Horde 5). Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-10-2015 at 10:05 AM.. |
#62
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
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![]() Quote:
Actually, this is quite close to the version of mine. In this version, Dun Modr is a fortress (and town) guarding both ends of Thandol Span, while Dun Algaz is a fortress (and town) guarding the Wetlands. Stromics, supported by Azerothiens, land in the Wetlands (using Tol Barad as the staging point), and launch an attack against Dun Modr. Once it is taken, Azerothiens leave a garrison there while the main force continues on Dun Algaz. After the orcs in Dun Algaz are defeated, Stromics flood the Wetlands and Badlands, connecting with the dwarven resistance. This leaves the main body of Black Tooth Grins stranded in the Arathi Highlands. Knowing this, Doomhammer orders an attack against Azerothien garrison in Dun Modr and two side attack against Tol Barad. Both are successful and the Alliance forces in Khaz Modan are cut off, but not before getting a large amount of supplies and reinforcements, which allows them to wage sort of guerrilla war and prevents the Horde in retaking those large swathes of Khaz Modan they lost, even though they retook Dun Modr and sacked Tol Barad. And at this time, the Badlands mission happens (both before the assault on Grim Batol and the battle of Stromgarde). Oh, and this whole operation is led by Danath Trollbane, with a large amount of Stromics being a part of militia (the main body of the standing army is fighting in the Highlands and on Tol Barad). Last edited by Marthen; 01-10-2016 at 06:00 AM.. |
#63
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![]() Echo of the Past Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,180
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![]() Okay. You have it set up similarly to what I had in mind, up to Danath (though you placed Doomhammer here instead of Saurfang, which was my mind's version).
I may not be a fan of the Tirasian republic either, but I'm curious where this war goes. ![]() EDIT: Leaving a link to my aborted Second War thread here. Shame, a lot of the images are broken now with the wowpedia shiftings. Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-10-2015 at 11:33 AM.. |
#64
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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![]() Quote:
![]() Edit: I am basing that Danath bit on his entry in the Beyond the Dark Portal manual. Last edited by Marthen; 06-10-2015 at 11:40 AM.. |
#65
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![]() Guru of Gilneas Join Date: Mar 2010
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Proper use of terms. An elective monarchy where aristocratic families hold the power does not a republic make, certainly no more than the Holy Roman Empire was a "republic." Last edited by Genesis; 06-10-2015 at 11:43 AM.. |
#66
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![]() Elune Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: St. M. of Tucumán, Argentina
Posts: 6,663
BattleTag: CEMOTucu#2138
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The text of "The Seven Kingdoms" is relevant for earlier human history: all the seven human states began as city-states, but all evolved into something different except for Kul Tiras. Please find evidence of Alterac or Lordaeron being city-states during the RTS period. The only we have is Kul Tiras, all the others are kingdoms ruled by kings, and the so called "magical kingdom" of Dalaran wasn't ruled by kings. I recommend you read the "kingdom" page in WoWpedia.
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FOR NYORLOTH, ALWAYS AND FOREVER!
Loremaster on ![]() (Spanish Warcraft Lore Community and Roleplay) |
#67
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![]() Echo of the Past Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,180
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![]() Quote:
Proudmoore's a singular head of state who's never shown to answer to any sort of council or nobility in any of his decisions. He leads his kingdom through its navy in the same way that Thoras Trollbane leads his kingdom through its army... and we're reminded that, until the ToD novel, I don't think Thoras Trollbane was even called a king. Not sure he even had a title at all. It's not so bothersome to me, because I love the war more than the players. But Genesis, I think he's a bit more invested in the latter. |
#68
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
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Anyway, thanks for an opinion and valuable statements (no irony) and....I will just leave it there... Last edited by Marthen; 06-10-2015 at 11:54 AM.. |
#69
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![]() Echo of the Past Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
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As for the others? Name a town in Alterac other than Alterac. Name a town in Stromgarde other than Stromgarde. Before the Cataclysm expansion, could you have named a town in Gilneas other than Gilneas? That little dot on the Warcraft II map labeled "Kul Tiras", is on an island of remarkable relative size. Larger than the Gilnean peninsula. And there's been almost no lore on it - not since the RPG sources were scrapped. Yet, it's hard to believe that the entire island remained unexplored/uncolonized. |
#70
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![]() Elune Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: St. M. of Tucumán, Argentina
Posts: 6,663
BattleTag: CEMOTucu#2138
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![]() Quote:
I don't think its a good idea to look to WoW's rendition of the setting for evidence of other towns. There's game-scale. For example, we know that Baron Mordis was a lesser noble who own two castles and a village, so it is likely that there were effectively other towns and cities in Alterac. As for Stromgarde had Tol Barad at one point, and it is likely that there were other towns in the Highlands of the Arathi. However, Kul Tiras is the only one that has been specifically described as being a city-state of all the "Seven Kingdoms" in recent times. It has been called a kingdom, despite being ruled by a noble (the same way Dalaran is a "kingdom" ruled by six archmagi). PS: When I referred to the RTS period, I meant the "historical period"(i.e. First War to Third War), not the games specifically.
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FOR NYORLOTH, ALWAYS AND FOREVER!
Loremaster on ![]() (Spanish Warcraft Lore Community and Roleplay) |
#71
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![]() Guru of Gilneas Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,290
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![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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#72
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![]() Elune Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: St. M. of Tucumán, Argentina
Posts: 6,663
BattleTag: CEMOTucu#2138
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![]() Quote:
And yet, Kul Tiras is not ruled by a king/queen ergo it is not a kingdom in the proper sense of the word. No... I just wanted you to read the explanation that "kingdom" in Warcraft is sometimes used to describe an state that is not ruled by a king or queen (which is the definition of kingdom).
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FOR NYORLOTH, ALWAYS AND FOREVER!
Loremaster on ![]() (Spanish Warcraft Lore Community and Roleplay) Last edited by Cemotucu; 06-10-2015 at 12:26 PM.. |
#73
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![]() Echo of the Past Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,180
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![]() Did they? Warcraft II only said a garrison of Stromgarde soldiers were there defending it; there were also Stromgarde soldiers scattered throughout northern Khaz Modan. Day of the Dragon described Tol Barad itself as an island "kingdom". And the lore concerning the Baradin's Wardens and Duke Reginald Baradin II might indicate that Tol Barad was some sort of duchy, prior to the Second War.
Before Warcraft III, there was strong indication that eastern cities like Tyr's Hand, Stratholme, and Caer Darrow were also independent from the major kingdoms. Not conclusive, mind you. Just food for thought. . . . . . . . . . But that's all really beside the point. The main thing? I have never seen a single indication that Daelin Proudmoore answered to or consulted with anyone regarding his decisions as ruler of Kul Tiras. I repeat: There is no indication that Daelin Proudmoore answered to or consulted with anyone. About anything related to his nation. Stormwind has a house of nobles... Ironforge has a senate... Kul Tiras has nobody. Just Daelin Proudmoore. Quote:
Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-10-2015 at 12:50 PM.. |
#74
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![]() Elune Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: St. M. of Tucumán, Argentina
Posts: 6,663
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I recommend you read the source material of this page's History section. I am not defending the "republic". ![]() I'm just saying that we shouldn't call Kul Tiras a kingdom, because it wasn't ruled by a king/queen. He was monarch from the nobility, but not a royal.
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FOR NYORLOTH, ALWAYS AND FOREVER!
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#75
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
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![]() Poor Cemotucu got birched there for my ideas. Apologies, good sir.
Quote:
But you might be right. I am not denying that. It just seems strange that a nation which has merchant lords and is described as a merchant nation, implying that merchants are the main class, would be an absolute monarchy or even a military dictatorship. But on the other hand, this a fantasy universe, so it is of course possible. |
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