You forgot one. In Day of the Dragon, Deathwing includes Daelin as one of the monarchs.

And none of which suggests that Kul'Tiras is any sort of republic.

Barons seem to be the Warcraft equivalent of dukes.

Wasn't saying Kul Tiras is a republic, but that it is not a kingdom. Daelin being a monarch only means he is the single ruler of the nation; that the meaning of the word, after all.

While monarchy can involve royalty, we know for sure that's not the case for Kul Tiras.

And as I said in my first post, I believe the most neutral stance would be to name it "city-state of Kul Tiras" or "Merchant-nation of Kul Tiras", as the nation is named in Rise of the Lich King.

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But there are human dukes in the Warcraft.

In Warcraft III, there was Duke Lionheart.

In World of Warcraft, there is Duke Nicholas Zverenhoff. Also, while not really a living human, there is this human death knight called Duke Lankral.

Anyway, I am off the discussion about the government of Kul Tiras, since I think that I already said everything meaningful.

It's also named the "kingdom of Kul Tiras" in the Warcraft 2 manual. Almost fact-of-the-matter is that just about all the Seven Kingdoms are essentially city-states, and are often called as such in the Seven Kingdoms in-game book.

And you still insist on it being a republic?

I do not insist on it. It is just a theory that based on my observations seemed more plausible than the others and that has so far not been refuted by anything. Once it is, I will leave it behind.

Not refuted by anything? The WC2 manual calls it a 'kingdom,' and Deathwing counts Daelin Proudmoore as a monarch. Where is your evidence that it is a republic? A one time mention of 'merchant lord' in a non-specific manner is hardly evidence of a republic.

Cemotucu: Against your recent Kul Tiras edits on Wowpedia, it is possible for a state to be a city-state, a nation, and a kingdom. These are not mutually exclusive. Many ancient city-states were ruled by kings.

Keep in mind these bits in The Seven Kingdoms in-game book:

I already adressed this in my pre-previous post. Not going to delve into this again. But regarding the evidence....this is exactly why I am calling this an extrapolation and not a fact. It is merely an estimate based on trends borrowed from the real world and few little existing details. If I had a direct evidence about Kul Tiras being an aristocratic merchant republic with an elected monarch, I would not have to call it an estimation, I would call it a fact.

Anyway, if you either do not like this sort of thinking (which is quite common, even more so among scientists whose fields are working with an empirical or direct data), are a lore purist or just have a certain vision of Azeroth to which you are invested, I recommend you to pass over this work (with no hard feelings whatsoever), since there is going to be alot of cases like this.

I am torn on this, and let me tell you why. On the plus side, it's an innovative and exciting adaptation. I can see the path in Horde Act III across Caer Darrow, then the fortress at Tyr's Bay, and finally north to Stratholme Bay (where you even include the mountains that goblin sappers would have blasted through), before having Quel'thalas enveloped for the final attack. Those are very strong pluses.

But here is my dilemma: I am a servant to the Second War.

1) I want to envision a Second War in which all the Tides of Darkness missions happened, in some form.
2) I want this vision of the Second War to be easily compatible with the modern state of lore.
3) Arthas Menethil (and to a lesser extent, Tirion Fordring) have storylines that rely on Stratholme being pristine and untouched after the Second War.

As I've said before, I feel all of the WCII missions could have happened in their entirety while preserving the thematics of WCIII, all of those towns destroyed, except for Lordaeron City and Stratholme. They have to be around for WCIII. And not torn-down-then-rebuilt... Hillsbrad can be torn down and rebuilt because of its unassuming size, and Dalaran can because of its plot-enforced reconstructing magic... but not Stratholme.


It's like, well, it's like Varian. In my make-believe universe of headfanon, I want Varian to have been in hiding in continental Azeroth throughout all of the Second War. That way the Kingdom of Azer...Stormwind can rally to reclaim their homeland, without a living king serving as morale crutch, giving them a strong sense of thematic nationalism akin to what we could feel in Warcraft II. Then after the war Varian could be brought out of hiding and all would be the same. BUT I CAN'T DO THAT, because there is too much in Arthas's and Varian's characterizations that require Varian to cross the Great Sea and set foot in Lordaeron as a child. As much as I feel his absence drives Stormwind nationalism in the Second War, his presence drives arguably more in the stories of Arthas and Varian combined. So he has to be there, regardless of the impression WCII:ToD gave.

Along those same lines... the Culling of Stratholme is a definitive moment in Arthas's journey, and thus in the final journey of Lordaeron as we know it. The larger, grander, and more unblemished Stratholme is, the more poignant its destruction becomes. The Second War can't touch it.


And that is why I choose instead to believe that Horde Mission 10 actually depicts the destruction of Darrowshire and consolidation of Darrowmere Lake. As tempting as it is to conceive of the Horde connecting from the Great Sea to the Frozen Sea...

We have a quite similar vision then. The account of the Second War I created for this work is based on the same idea. All Warcraft II missions happened. Just some happened with little different results (and some in little different order, for example, I had to place the sack of Dalaran before the fall of Alterac and thus before the battle of Broken Isles). I will not delve into details since finished work will include this whole account together with military campaign maps etc., but regarding Stratholme, I basically came up with 3 options :

1. The one you described.

2. There are two Stratholmes. Southern guards the place where Thondoril river mouths into the lake of Darrowmere, northern guards the place where Thondoril mouths into the Darrowmere (Stratholme) bay. Those cities are twin cities (or sister cities?). Southern one gets destroyed (and in such a fashion that it is never rebuilt), northern survives.

3. There is only one Stratholme, and it is indeed attacked by the Horde, although it is not destroyed, apart from its oil facilities and port.

At the moment, I am going with the third option, although I am not truly decided yet and the second one seems plausible as well.

Let me talk you about Dun Modr. I see you have the city-across-the-waters interpretation, allowing for both versions to exist until presumably the Arathi version is destroyed. A solid option.

Though, as time goes by, I'm finding more and more attractive the idea that the Horde crossed Thandol to invade Arathi, but then had to retreat back into the continent because the Alliance attacked their flank at Dun Modr---not straight on from the west, as in Warcraft II, but from behind them on Khaz Modan itself, as modern canon maps would imply (Alliance 5). The Horde would have had to retreat back to Khaz Modan to avoid being cut off, falling back past Dun Algaz (Alliance 6)... except those left behind, whose only option was to go for broke and strike Tol Barad with everything they had to reconnect their supply lines (Horde 5).

Actually, this is quite close to the version of mine. In this version, Dun Modr is a fortress (and town) guarding both ends of Thandol Span, while Dun Algaz is a fortress (and town) guarding the Wetlands. Stromics, supported by Azerothiens, land in the Wetlands (using Tol Barad as the staging point), and launch an attack against Dun Modr. Once it is taken, Azerothiens leave a garrison there while the main force continues on Dun Algaz. After the orcs in Dun Algaz are defeated, Stromics flood the Wetlands and Badlands, connecting with the dwarven resistance.

This leaves the main body of Black Tooth Grins stranded in the Arathi Highlands. Knowing this, Doomhammer orders an attack against Azerothien garrison in Dun Modr and two side attack against Tol Barad. Both are successful and the Alliance forces in Khaz Modan are cut off, but not before getting a large amount of supplies and reinforcements, which allows them to wage sort of guerrilla war and prevents the Horde in retaking those large swathes of Khaz Modan they lost, even though they retook Dun Modr and sacked Tol Barad. And at this time, the Badlands mission happens (both before the assault on Grim Batol and the battle of Stromgarde).

Oh, and this whole operation is led by Danath Trollbane, with a large amount of Stromics being a part of militia (the main body of the standing army is fighting in the Highlands and on Tol Barad).

Okay. You have it set up similarly to what I had in mind, up to Danath (though you placed Doomhammer here instead of Saurfang, which was my mind's version).

I may not be a fan of the Tirasian republic either, but I'm curious where this war goes.


EDIT: Leaving a link to my aborted Second War thread here. Shame, a lot of the images are broken now with the wowpedia shiftings.

I have to wonder if the main issue is with the idea that Kul Tiras could be an elective monarchy where aristocratic merchant families hold the power or with the word republic.

Edit: I am basing that Danath bit on his entry in the Beyond the Dark Portal manual.

I may have to pass support on your unhistoric project. Working in a field that delves deeply into history myself, I understand extrapolation from evidence. But extrapolation from evidence should still be from evidence and take into account contrary evidence, which I feel that you don't just so you can preserve your own wish fulfillment and revisionist view of the lore. We simply do not have hard evidence to even extrapolate that it was a republic of any sort. None. The real world trends do not cut it when neither such trends nor evidence are existent in Azeroth.

Proper use of terms. An elective monarchy where aristocratic families hold the power does not a republic make, certainly no more than the Holy Roman Empire was a "republic."

But we know that Daelin was no king, as per RotLK. He was a monarch, but not a king. The same way, Jaina was the only ruler of the city-state of Theramore, which was described as a kingdom to. And also Dalaran, a magocracy, was described as a kingdom despite it being kingless.

The text of "The Seven Kingdoms" is relevant for earlier human history: all the seven human states began as city-states, but all evolved into something different except for Kul Tiras. Please find evidence of Alterac or Lordaeron being city-states during the RTS period. The only we have is Kul Tiras, all the others are kingdoms ruled by kings, and the so called "magical kingdom" of Dalaran wasn't ruled by kings.

I recommend you read the "kingdom" page in WoWpedia.

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I guess... think of it this way. Before Warcraft III, there was stronger evidence for Quel'thalas being a republic, than Kul Tiras.

Proudmoore's a singular head of state who's never shown to answer to any sort of council or nobility in any of his decisions. He leads his kingdom through its navy in the same way that Thoras Trollbane leads his kingdom through its army... and we're reminded that, until the ToD novel, I don't think Thoras Trollbane was even called a king. Not sure he even had a title at all.

It's not so bothersome to me, because I love the war more than the players. But Genesis, I think he's a bit more invested in the latter.

But it does (kind of). Republic of Both Nations was exactly that. And it is considered a noble republic. Both by historians and by the people who were its inhabitants and representatives.

Anyway, thanks for an opinion and valuable statements (no irony) and....I will just leave it there...

Not Lordaeron - Lordaeron got everything, including Durnholde Keep. I think we have WotLK to thank for that as well. And Stormwind has as much of its continent as the writers feel like giving it.

As for the others? Name a town in Alterac other than Alterac. Name a town in Stromgarde other than Stromgarde. Before the Cataclysm expansion, could you have named a town in Gilneas other than Gilneas?

That little dot on the Warcraft II map labeled "Kul Tiras", is on an island of remarkable relative size. Larger than the Gilnean peninsula. And there's been almost no lore on it - not since the RPG sources were scrapped. Yet, it's hard to believe that the entire island remained unexplored/uncolonized.

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I don't think its a good idea to look to WoW's rendition of the setting for evidence of other towns. There's game-scale. For example, we know that Baron Mordis was a lesser noble who own two castles and a village, so it is likely that there were effectively other towns and cities in Alterac.

As for Stromgarde had Tol Barad at one point, and it is likely that there were other towns in the Highlands of the Arathi.

However, Kul Tiras is the only one that has been specifically described as being a city-state of all the "Seven Kingdoms" in recent times. It has been called a kingdom, despite being ruled by a noble (the same way Dalaran is a "kingdom" ruled by six archmagi).

PS: When I referred to the RTS period, I meant the "historical period"(i.e. First War to Third War), not the games specifically.

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Not only that, but city-states only rarely were just the city itself, but also a bunch of surrounding towns and villages.

The nations are commonly referred to as "kingdoms" in a collective or general sense, such as the Seven Kingdoms, but what should we do when a particular nation is referred to as a kingdom? If kingdom and nation are used a in general senses, should we not also be suspicious of Blizzard's use of "city-state"? See?

You mean the page edited by you? Is that citing yourself as an authority?

Not sure if we should be so suspicious about the use of city-state, specially when it has been only used in two cases in the recent historical time: for Kul Tiras and Theramore.

And yet, Kul Tiras is not ruled by a king/queen ergo it is not a kingdom in the proper sense of the word.

No... I just wanted you to read the explanation that "kingdom" in Warcraft is sometimes used to describe an state that is not ruled by a king or queen (which is the definition of kingdom).

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Did they? Warcraft II only said a garrison of Stromgarde soldiers were there defending it; there were also Stromgarde soldiers scattered throughout northern Khaz Modan. Day of the Dragon described Tol Barad itself as an island "kingdom". And the lore concerning the Baradin's Wardens and Duke Reginald Baradin II might indicate that Tol Barad was some sort of duchy, prior to the Second War.

Before Warcraft III, there was strong indication that eastern cities like Tyr's Hand, Stratholme, and Caer Darrow were also independent from the major kingdoms. Not conclusive, mind you. Just food for thought.

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. . .

. . .

But that's all really beside the point. The main thing? I have never seen a single indication that Daelin Proudmoore answered to or consulted with anyone regarding his decisions as ruler of Kul Tiras.

I repeat: There is no indication that Daelin Proudmoore answered to or consulted with anyone. About anything related to his nation. Stormwind has a house of nobles... Ironforge has a senate... Kul Tiras has nobody. Just Daelin Proudmoore.

Who is he consulting with? Where's a source even hinting at him consulting with anyone? That's why the republic angle is a little strange. There's stronger evidence for it being a military dictatorship... you know, if this weren't a quasi-medieval fantasy setting.

As for Tol Barad, we know it was founded by Arathor and later taken and colonized by Stromgarde, who abandoned the stronghold to the wizards of Kul Tiras. The Stromic population of Rustberg was later called back home to deal with the kingdom's catastrophes.

I recommend you read the source material of this page's History section.

I am not defending the "republic".

I'm just saying that we shouldn't call Kul Tiras a kingdom, because it wasn't ruled by a king/queen. He was monarch from the nobility, but not a royal.

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Poor Cemotucu got birched there for my ideas. Apologies, good sir.


Well, you are right there. But the thing is...was it ever indicated that Magni or Llane/Varian answered to someone (or counseled with) before their kingdoms were exposed in World of Warcraft? Are we really looking at the evidence or at the lack of exposition?

But you might be right. I am not denying that. It just seems strange that a nation which has merchant lords and is described as a merchant nation, implying that merchants are the main class, would be an absolute monarchy or even a military dictatorship. But on the other hand, this a fantasy universe, so it is of course possible.