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  #5726  
Old 06-09-2018, 09:29 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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if they reboot the series please keep Christie Golden as far away from it as possible
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5727  
Old 06-09-2018, 09:57 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Alliance isn't allowed to get major victories over the Horde without some disaster or backfire or lack of serious impact happening for parity/game design (see the purge of Dalaran). I doubt they'll bother to let the Alliance control all the East instead of contriving a way for the Horde to continue being a significant presence there. If they invade Quel'thalas then it will fail or ultimately not work out for them.

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if they reboot the series please keep Christie Golden as far away from it as possible
You'll have to keep away more than just Golden. It goes up to Metzen even.
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  #5728  
Old 06-09-2018, 10:09 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
It gives both Anduin and Sylvanas a reason to get directly involved, something to lose. Anduin would surely rush to rescue his mentor at the Exodar, while Sylvanas isn’t about to take any kind of invasion of her Homeland lying down.

Blood Knights might have to learn how to invoke the light without a Sunwell, but they’ve had years to actually learn how to do it the same way everyone else does.
I wouldn't worry about the Blood Knights. I'd worry about the general population. Losing the Sunwell (and their homeland) would force the blood elves to adapt in new ways.

And turning part of the population into void elves would make the ren'dorei a true "race", rather than a small elite force. Thought we'd need Forsaken-esque levels of shit explanation as to why the transformed population wouldn't turn against the Alliance in anger for invading and damning them...
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  #5729  
Old 06-09-2018, 10:13 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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You know We have been talking alot about this on the discord.

Why does the alliance Exist?

Seriously.

Its only existance is because of the horde, without it it would just be a bunch of kingdoms and races that are neutral.

But what is the purpose of it?

Horde has alot of purpose and such things like identity. Alliance homever lacks it alot.

I mean lets take star wars terms.

The empire exists because they want to bring order to the galaxy and stuff rebel alliance view the empire as corrupt and stuff.


in warcraft terms we have The Horde wants power and security and have a single purpose: survival. The Horde isnt a Family per say, but it is a union of races of outcasts and scum generally speaking.
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  #5730  
Old 06-09-2018, 11:07 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
You know We have been talking alot about this on the discord.

Why does the alliance Exist?

Seriously.

Its only existance is because of the horde, without it it would just be a bunch of kingdoms and races that are neutral.

But what is the purpose of it?

Horde has alot of purpose and such things like identity. Alliance homever lacks it alot.

I mean lets take star wars terms.

The empire exists because they want to bring order to the galaxy and stuff rebel alliance view the empire as corrupt and stuff.


in warcraft terms we have The Horde wants power and security and have a single purpose: survival. The Horde isnt a Family per say, but it is a union of races of outcasts and scum generally speaking.
They're there to fight the Horde and be whatever the Horde isn't. The Horde squabbles so the Alliance just follows King Anduin's sayso except for strawman Jaina. The Horde ranges from burn 'n pillage to doing what's "neccessary" so the Alliance has to be every comic book superhero sterotype rolled into one when it comes to their place in the world and how they treat their enemies.
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  #5731  
Old 06-10-2018, 01:38 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
You know We have been talking alot about this on the discord.

Why does the alliance Exist?

Seriously.

Its only existance is because of the horde, without it it would just be a bunch of kingdoms and races that are neutral.

But what is the purpose of it?

Horde has alot of purpose and such things like identity. Alliance homever lacks it alot.

I mean lets take star wars terms.

The empire exists because they want to bring order to the galaxy and stuff rebel alliance view the empire as corrupt and stuff.


in warcraft terms we have The Horde wants power and security and have a single purpose: survival. The Horde isnt a Family per say, but it is a union of races of outcasts and scum generally speaking.
The Alliance exists to spread justice and order, it is there as a group that ensures that hope still stands strong in Azeroth and that evil will never prevail on the planet. While the Horde also oppose evil, the Horde is not as concerned about abstract concepts like justice and morality, they are more concerned about personal survival, pragmatism, and the strong overcoming the weak. That is why them opposing evil forces is less about bringing justice to them and more about not being pawns to them.

The Alliance may be more uniform in its values and races, but that by no means has to entail that the Alliance has no theme or is somehow less interesting than the Horde. The factions are interesting and appealing their own ways and it's really up to the player's personal opinion on which one they find more interesting than the other. Personally, I think if players want the races to have bickering and in-fighting then they need to just roll Horde, whereas if players want to have a far more idealistic hero fantasy then they should just go Alliance.

Odok also articulated these different faction themes perfectly.

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The Horde ultimately personifies the power fantasy. It can be seen in every Horde race from the physical might of the orcs and tauren, to the overpowering mysticism of the trolls and blood elves, to the amoral power mongering of the Forsaken and goblins. In the case of the Pandaren, the Huojin are meant to embody the sort of unmitigated kung fu badass of popular culture (punching through walls and such). The fun of the faction comes from being in a position of power in an otherwise powerless situation, i.e. one orc against three humans. It's about rising up against impossible odds and utterly crushing your opponent. This is also why most Horde races have an outcast/exile/underdog vibe. It's not terribly important to have context in any scenario, but it's still important to feel heroic rather than villainous. It's why the word "honor" is thrown around so much - it's not so much an ethical code as one of justification.

By contrast the Alliance personifies the righteous fantasy. It's much more abstract, and perhaps harder to articulate, but it mostly revolves faith, duty, and standing on the moral high ground. It's much more defensive than the Horde power fantasy and tends to be expressed through withstanding impossible odds rather than turning the tables on their foe. This is why the Alliance races have a strong basis in religion, often have many years of tradition in their customs, tend to act like they have some sacred duty or purpose in the world, and in a lot of cases have a foil to heavily contrast against (feral Worgen, Eredar, Highborne, etc). Context is very important because the fun of playing Alliance stems from having a sort of philosophical satisfaction in your actions. For example, the humans don't want to kill orcs because they're a challenge, but rather because they're seen as a threat that must be wiped out.

In simplest terms, the Horde is to Conan the Barbarian as the Alliance is to Lord of the Rings.

Now obviously these are generalizations, and you can no doubt cherry pick exceptions, but the point is to point out the zeitgeist of the factions. The ultimate goal of MoP is to instill us with faction pride and hammer down our convictions in the coming war.

So the question of what the factions should do ought to mirror the guidelines I've pointed out above. The Horde, now handicapped in the wake of the civil war, should use their losses as fuel to push even harder. Have every idle hand out contributing to the war effort, really get that wartime nationalism going. Wear Garrosh's betrayals as a battlescar and fight to reclaim the Horde's lost honor. Shame-filled orcs volunteering for suicide missions, fighting until their last drop of blood spills in order to wrest victory out of the hands of their enemy. No thoughtful repose, but immediate action. On the flip side the Alliance ought to feel vindicated in their nobility. The Ancients returning to the Night Elves, celebrations in Stormwind and blessings from the Light, etc. While the Horde fights to pick up the pieces, have the Alliance build up and fortify. The Horde fights because everything they hold dear is now at risk, because honor dictates they face down their foes in the Alliance who seek to eradicate them. The Alliance fights because they've seen the true horrors the Horde is capable of and drives to build a better world for themselves.

And that way everyone wins, and there's no true sense of superiority between the factions. The Alliance would be seemingly gaining the upper hand, yes, but they still haven't defeated the Horde. And they'd still be suffering losses from a foe that should've rolled over and died. Thus the Horde would feel as if the Alliance's time will come in the future, just so long as they keep fighting. Ergo by that perspective the Horde holds the upper hand. Therefore each faction, by their own perspectives, is awesome. Which is the goal of all this.
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  #5732  
Old 06-10-2018, 03:20 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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That second half of Odok's post makes me sad. Sad about what could have been.

Remember this Q&A?

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A fear many Alliance players have is that everything that the Horde has done to the faction up until this point will be laid on Garrosh and all will be forgiven. Can we safely assume that this will not be the case? To the Alliance, the Horde has a lot to answer for without Hellscream.

Fargo: I address this somewhat in an above answer - how SHOULD we depict Alliance justice without deleting a bunch of old zone content? Also, we still need to make sure a Horde EXISTS after Garrosh falls, because, you know, they're half our players. But certainly going forward into the next expansion we can carry forward the themes of Horde trying to rebuild itself from an absolutely terrible war and the Alliance - a unified victorious juggernaut - taking the initiative in the challenges that lie ahead.

Orgrimmar is going to be a bloodbath.
In effect, nothing happened. No depiction of "Alliance justice." No themes of the Horde rebuilding itself from its civil war. No Alliance taking the initiative as a unified victorious juggernaut. Not even a particularly notable bloodbath, for that matter; we lost Nazgrim and Malkorok, and nobody else with a name and backstory. Sure, there were the mantid Paragons, but frankly they basically told us they'd be coming to kill us someday at the end of their reputation quests, so that was hardly some shocking loss.

And then they went and demoted Garrosh after-the-fact (and out-of-game) from a still-popular Warchief being taken down at the height of his warmongering campaign to a lone crackpot with his cult of Kor'kron fanatics that the other orcs didn't even like with the entire world against them, making SoO less like a civil war and more like a Hollywood drug bust. So instead of actually addressing any of the complex, uncertain, interesting consequences, SoO was retroactively reduced to a non-event so they wouldn't have to bother dealing with any of it.

Hardly the first, but certainly one of the more egregious examples of how they seem to shut their brains off when dealing with the factions and assume the rest of us are all simple-minded enough to do the same. They insist that in this vast universe they've built, the conflict between these two factions is what really matters, only for the factions' stories to end up mattering the least when the smoke finally clears.

Last edited by ARM3481; 06-10-2018 at 03:27 AM..
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  #5733  
Old 06-10-2018, 04:12 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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And turning part of the population into void elves would make the ren'dorei a true "race", rather than a small elite force. Thought we'd need Forsaken-esque levels of shit explanation as to why the transformed population wouldn't turn against the Alliance in anger for invading and damning them...
You would need things to go bad prior to the Alliance invasion.
Sylvanas would have to do something fucked up that leads to the destruction of the sunwell and a civil war amongst blood elves.
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  #5734  
Old 06-10-2018, 06:08 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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You would need things to go bad prior to the Alliance invasion.
Sylvanas would have to do something fucked up that leads to the destruction of the sunwell and a civil war amongst blood elves.
All she has to do is mess with Arator. That’s all she needs to get Alleria to go Void Crazy on her.
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  #5735  
Old 06-10-2018, 09:10 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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All she has to do is mess with Arator. That’s all she needs to get Alleria to go Void Crazy on her.
He means from the perspective of the thalassian population.

Yes, Sylvanas just needs to do something bad to Arator for Alleria to snap. But if the Sunwell goes void and the explosion turns half of Silvermoon into void elves, why would these elves be happy to go Alliance?

So, his points is that these elves would need to change sides (or at least rebel) before the turning, and they'd need to see the Sunwell corruption as something that wasn't caused by the Alliance. Anything else would make them look like the forsaken recruits that fight against their former allies and are loyal to the Horde despite being murdered and damned by it.
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  #5736  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:19 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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The Alliance may be more uniform in its values and races, but that by no means has to entail that the Alliance has no theme or is somehow less interesting than the Horde. The factions are interesting and appealing their own ways and it's really up to the player's personal opinion on which one they find more interesting than the other. Personally, I think if players want the races to have bickering and in-fighting then they need to just roll Horde, whereas if players want to have a far more idealistic hero fantasy then they should just go Alliance.

Odok also articulated these different faction themes perfectly.
I'll articulate my opinion of this briefly. You're right, the Alliance typically portrays a more traditional heroic fantasy than the Horde. That's part of the point. You're also wrong, as the Alliance races weren't designed to get along as well as they do.

Alliance races have largely had their flaws ironed out, but are still occasionally remembered to jarring effect.

The common opinion of the Draenei is that they're near perfect virtuous angels. When Blizzard actually goes deeper into characterizing them, they make sure that the Draenei think so too. They're an arrogant and contemptuous race, not as different from the Eredar as one might believe. The existence of the Sargerai shows what happens when they lose faith in Velen and he can no longer hold them back. The one thing about the Draenei that mustn't be forgotten is that Velen often overrules their own judgement in their stories. The Draenei would have abandoned the Alliance if left to their own devices. They'd probably never have allowed the Broken back in, and the main role of the Broken in the Exodar is still as drudge laborers.

This characterization pops in and out of existence at random. The whole Yrel development is pretty much just someone remembering that Draenei have character flaws and exploiting them for the scenario. Draenei will go against their judgement for a higher authority. Draenei are already more than willing to show their superiority if allowed to. Yrel's just showing something that was supposed to be part of the Draenei for years.

And another case. From early in WoW, there were signs of racism in Humans and the Alliance. Not just towards the Horde either. There are NPCs that comment on creepy purple elves. I'm pretty sure there's a moment in Northrend where it's mentioned that people don't feel comfortable alongside the Draenei. There's probably a scattered NPC here and there that expresses a distaste for Worgen. Of course, some of those cases are examples of a corruptive force trying to drive a wedge into a crack. Also, there was clearly political infighting among humans back in Vanilla.

Dwarves? Dwarves have shown imperialistic tendencies since Vanilla, and the current Dwarves are effectively split between rival factions that have probably been at war for hundreds of years.

The Alliance as a whole occasionally shows dismissive tendencies towards other races, even those they have no real conflict with. They'll disregard the Tauren as mere filthy bullmen and drive them out as if they were just murlocs. This aspect is pretty clear from Vanilla to Cataclysm. Descriptions of Horde races from their perspective are littered with contempt. Vol'jin was depicted with roaches and flies around him on the Alliance side, and ample descriptions of how disgusting he is.

Night Elves are another case of this kind of writing. They have tons of layers that are forgotten and remembered, in such a way to give them schizophrenic writing. Are the Night Elves prejudiced, isolationist, or set in their ways? Are they arrogant? The answer here is "sometimes". Tyrande is not a single character. Sometimes she's portrayed as ideal nice Alliance Tyrande. Sometimes she's portrayed as flawed Night Elf Tyrande.

These flaws don't just disappear because the writers forget them 90% of the time. For that remaining 10%, someone remembers and makes use of them. Flaws that were always supposed to be there.

Back in Vanilla, the difference between factions could be summed up pretty easily. The Alliance were old, established civilizations. The Horde were new ones, starting from the bottom.

Last edited by Krakhed; 06-10-2018 at 10:23 AM..
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  #5737  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:37 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Human/Alliance hostility against Races not in their club is Showing Not Telling outside of cartoon villainy like Garithos'. The deserter Death Knights even being in the Alliance with effectively no restrictions on them really puts a dent in that meme.
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  #5738  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:46 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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@Krakhed

I'd love to see such flaws appear more often, as long as they aren't prevalent.

I think the problem with the Alliance is that the flaws are too buried, while in the Horde they are too exposed.

Humans feeling unconfortable around elves or draenei, or elves belittling humans work so long as it's the rank-and-file troops and citizens doing so. When it's the leaders acting like that, you start to question how such alliances would even be able to be held together.

I like this perspective that Velen is the one that keeps the Draenei balanced. One of the problems with WoW storytelling is that it focus too much on the big figures, so we don't see the myriad variations of flaws and prejudices among the races.

I think the best portrayed race in the game are the blood elves, because Blizzard was wise in making them varied. You have several inner organizations (Farstriders, Magisters, Blood Knights, Sunreavers, Reliquary), you have dissidents (high elves and void elves, plus some ocasional Alliance-leaning blood elf), you have racism towards other races without it being too obvious, you have multiple leader figures that have different perspectives. That's why I think so many people like them.

Blizzard should do the same treatment to every other race. An easy start would be with the night elves: portray druids, Sentinels, Watchers, shen'dralar and so on as different. Make some of them like working with short-lived races, others disdainful of them. Clash them sometimes with dwarf industrialism. It would be a nice start.

Doing so would make conflict, internal, inter-factional and external, appear in organic ways.

I think the races that need such treatment the most are the Draenei and Forsaken.
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  #5739  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:51 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
The Human/Alliance hostility against Races not in their club is Showing Not Telling outside of cartoon villainy like Garithos'. The deserter Death Knights even being in the Alliance with effectively no restrictions on them really puts a dent in that meme.
Hey, I didn't say that Blizzard's writers were good. I'm saying that it's a trait that the Alliance is supposed to have, when Blizzard's writers remember that fact. Blizzard has a habit of not really passing around the memo.

To me, the Alliance is a faction that is more vulnerable to being written as entirely generic, because it has most of the traditional D&D races. It's easier for a writer to just fall back on standard cliches for most of them. Alliance writers will also make the Horde absurdly monstrous anytime they get their hands on them.
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  #5740  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:52 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Fuck you guys.
You sure like saying that randomly. Any chance you could stop doing so here or on the Discord?
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  #5741  
Old 06-10-2018, 11:21 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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@Krakhed

I'd love to see such flaws appear more often, as long as they aren't prevalent.

I think the problem with the Alliance is that the flaws are too buried, while in the Horde they are too exposed.

Humans feeling unconfortable around elves or draenei, or elves belittling humans work so long as it's the rank-and-file troops and citizens doing so. When it's the leaders acting like that, you start to question how such alliances would even be able to be held together.
I think there can be the occasional bad commander, but you're right. The racial leaders themselves should be more diplomatic on the surface.

But the way I see things is that it's too easy for the writers to fall back on cliches. There needs to be pressure for them to not write the Horde as an evil dark empire. When the Alliance writes the Horde, what we get is usually something just hideous and awful. Stormsong is a good example of this, where it's clear the writers went way too fucking far. To the point where it caught the attention of higher ups who felt it had to be corrected.

Horde writers will paint the Alliance and conflict as grey. Alliance writers lean towards black and white. The incompatibility of these stories results in a lot of the stupidity in Warcraft. If the only ones trying to tell a grey story are predominately Horde and the Alliance usually likes to tell a comfortable black&white without trying to get deep, the end result is monochromatic.

In that sense, the difference between factions is partly based in what kind of writers are attracted to them. I think the Horde's writing is terrible, but I see what the writers are trying to do with it. It's another fucking struggle for the soul of their people, ideas about honor, and trying to reflect upon the idea of if "good wars" are even a thing. It wants to go a "horrors of war" thing, and not just focused on the actions of the enemy. How much does "survival" justify? At what point are you just selling your soul for comfort or power?

That's the type of fuckers we have writing the Horde. When it comes to the Alliance, the writing isn't any better than the Horde's. You could say it's more traditionally heroic, but I'd actually say that it's far less ambitious. It's not really trying to be a deeper reflection on anything. The Alliance are good guys fighting bad guys who will murder the fuck out of them if they're allowed to.

EDIT: This is clearly illustrated by the war campaigns. Look at how much the Alliance campaign emphasizes how well humans and elves get along, and how equal and great they both are. No friction whatsoever, just everyone getting along so well that it's actually obnoxious. And you're fighting an evil vampire. At least when you're not dealing with memes.

The Horde war campaign is a different beast all together, trying to deal with themes like death, isolation, the need for acceptance, and so on. Trying. Lilian's story, no matter how eye-rolling the quality, is far more ambitious than anything the Alliance characters do. It's trying to be deeper.

Last edited by Krakhed; 06-10-2018 at 11:46 AM..
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  #5742  
Old 06-10-2018, 12:08 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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I think there can be the occasional bad commander, but you're right. The racial leaders themselves should be more diplomatic on the surface.

But the way I see things is that it's too easy for the writers to fall back on cliches. There needs to be pressure for them to not write the Horde as an evil dark empire. When the Alliance writes the Horde, what we get is usually something just hideous and awful. Stormsong is a good example of this, where it's clear the writers went way too fucking far. To the point where it caught the attention of higher ups who felt it had to be corrected.

Horde writers will paint the Alliance and conflict as grey. Alliance writers lean towards black and white. The incompatibility of these stories results in a lot of the stupidity in Warcraft. If the only ones trying to tell a grey story are predominately Horde and the Alliance usually likes to tell a comfortable black&white without trying to get deep, the end result is monochromatic.

In that sense, the difference between factions is partly based in what kind of writers are attracted to them. I think the Horde's writing is terrible, but I see what the writers are trying to do with it. It's another fucking struggle for the soul of their people, ideas about honor, and trying to reflect upon the idea of if "good wars" are even a thing. It wants to go a "horrors of war" thing, and not just focused on the actions of the enemy. How much does "survival" justify? At what point are you just selling your soul for comfort or power?

That's the type of fuckers we have writing the Horde. When it comes to the Alliance, the writing isn't any better than the Horde's. You could say it's more traditionally heroic, but I'd actually say that it's far less ambitious. It's not really trying to be a deeper reflection on anything. The Alliance are good guys fighting bad guys who will murder the fuck out of them if they're allowed to.

EDIT: This is clearly illustrated by the war campaigns. Look at how much the Alliance campaign emphasizes how well humans and elves get along, and how equal and great they both are. No friction whatsoever, just everyone getting along so well that it's actually obnoxious. And you're fighting an evil vampire. At least when you're not dealing with memes.

The Horde war campaign is a different beast all together, trying to deal with themes like death, isolation, the need for acceptance, and so on. Trying. Lilian's story, no matter how eye-rolling the quality, is far more ambitious than anything the Alliance characters do. It's trying to be deeper.
I think when it's the case of military characters who are just doing their job, like Keeshan/Shandris, it actually makes sense that there's this respect.

But Shandris/Umbric felt somewhat wrong to me. While it shows Shandris being cautious, I think she wasn't suspicious at all. She seems to consider Umbric's PoV on using the void too quick ("Using the void for defense? Interesting."), and, while she later says she saw many noble races fall to dark powers, it still comes out as her being too trusting with it.

I'd like to see more gossip text in lesser characters that voices such concerns and prejudices. Yes, Shandris may respect humans, but maybe some of her Sentinel entourage disagrees. "Humans... they are too fragile. I hope this one doesn't slow us down."
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  #5743  
Old 06-10-2018, 12:16 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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I think when it's the case of military characters who are just doing their job, like Keeshan/Shandris, it actually makes sense that there's this respect.
I think you're missing my point. There's respect and there's whatever the fuck hamfisted horseshit is in the Alliance campaign. They push the the thing so far that Shandris's dialogue is literally mostly her defending how awesome humans are and how great their potential is.

The dialogue is awkward. But it's worse than that. It's set up to be the focus. There's a reason it became a meme.
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Old 06-10-2018, 01:58 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
There's respect and there's whatever the fuck hamfisted horseshit is in the Alliance campaign. They push the the thing so far that Shandris's dialogue is literally mostly her defending how awesome humans are and how great their potential is.
I think this "human potential" has blown way out of proportion. It has become a meme, and people are putting way more weight on it than it deserves. Plus, the offending datamined line about the "potential" was not even used in the end.
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Old 06-10-2018, 02:33 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
I'll articulate my opinion of this briefly. You're right, the Alliance typically portrays a more traditional heroic fantasy than the Horde. That's part of the point. You're also wrong, as the Alliance races weren't designed to get along as well as they do.
The Alliance were designed to have differences that they overcome and see each other as equals, that is why each race started off with flaws like those. The Alliance were a lot more divided before Wrath, and afterwards the faction's story has always been about uniting under common ideals and principles. It is more than apparent that Blizzard never intended to setup the Alliance to be what people wish they were, which is more like the Horde where there's more racial bickering and in-fighting.

Again, goes back to another quote I remember that aligns very well with how Blizzard has been handling the factions and why I don't think Blizzard will change course from it.

http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/show...ostcount=16872

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I'm sorry, but anyone who wants the Alliance to be a pact of convenience has missed the point of the franchise entirely. Yes, I know, its origins. But there's a massive difference between being initially brought together through circumstance and maintaining a political connection purely for one's own benefit, abandoning your "allies" the second you're no longer getting anything out of the relationship. If you want the latter, go to Game of Thrones.

Alliance = Lord of the Rings. It's a bunch of different races and cultures, initially indifferent or borderline hostile to each other, but are forced together to stand against a mutual foe. Yet, over time, they get to know each other, and recognize their shared ideological grounds. Bonds of fellowship form, and before the end, there is an unbreakable unity between them. Something that transcends the mundane, a spiritual connection linking them all as one. They see the parts of themselves in the other, and feel the reciprocation, and become something much greater than the sum of its parts.

Horde = Firefly. It's a bunch of different walks of life who just sort of cobbled together out of survival or blind chance. They don't particularly like each other, at least not everyone, but beggars can't be choosers and it's either this or oblivion. They butt heads, they subvert each other, sometimes there's outright betrayal. Yet somehow, they stick it out and pull through together. Over time, that blossoms into a mutual respect for one another, and a sense of belonging despite the dissonance. They become a family - a horribly dysfunctional, combative, can't stand each other half the time family - but a family one in the same.

Those are the themes at play here. The Alliance is about overcoming its differences and seeing each other as equals, different facets of a much greater good. The Horde is about banding together despite its differences, not overcoming them, because they're stronger together than they could ever be apart. They're both unifying themes, and they're both heroic and likable, and yet have completely different motives, motifs, and subtext. Two different flavors that accomplish the same underlying goal. Making the Alliance a thing of convenience thoroughly ruins all of that, and ironically, would do far more to vilify the faction than anything the story could ever do. It'd make the Horde the fraternal heroic faction, and the Alliance just a bunch of self-serving imperialists.
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Old 06-10-2018, 03:12 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I think this "human potential" has blown way out of proportion. It has become a meme, and people are putting way more weight on it than it deserves. Plus, the offending datamined line about the "potential" was not even used in the end.
What? I saw the quest myself. I'm pretty sure it was there. It's also all the "Can't they see, humans and Elves are equal!" dialogue. It's clumsy and forced. It's awkward dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
The Alliance were designed to have differences that they overcome and see each other as equals, that is why each race started off with flaws like those. The Alliance were a lot more divided before Wrath, and afterwards the faction's story has always been about uniting under common ideals and principles. It is more than apparent that Blizzard never intended to setup the Alliance to be what people wish they were, which is more like the Horde where there's more racial bickering and in-fighting.

Again, goes back to another quote I remember that aligns very well with how Blizzard has been handling the factions and why I don't think Blizzard will change course from it.

http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/show...ostcount=16872
The problem there is that you no longer have any story without the Horde. Your story is then defined by the Horde.

Last edited by Krakhed; 06-10-2018 at 03:20 PM..
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Old 06-10-2018, 03:23 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The first set of games with the Alliance as a faction had one member turn traitor, another do no more than a bare minimum, with a 3rd quitting, and overall be presented as squabbling as the Horde looking at just what happens in-game. This carried over into expanded universe considering Day of the Dragon. WC3's backstory had Stromgarde, Gilneas, and Quel'thalas all quit with its games overall having a vibe of the Alliance/Humanity falling into corruption. Point is, the "ALLIANCE SUPER SPECIAL SUPERFRIENDS WHO NEVER ARGUE AND WORSHIP HIS HOLINESS VARIAN" wasn't really a thing until about Wrath.

Look at the name: The Alliance. It implies division, arguing, disagreement among shared victory.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 06-10-2018 at 03:27 PM..
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Old 06-10-2018, 03:25 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I think this "human potential" has blown way out of proportion. It has become a meme, and people are putting way more weight on it than it deserves. Plus, the offending datamined line about the "potential" was not even used in the end.
It's only a meme because it touches on a larger problem with the story - that of faction homogenization and the humans' unfortunate role as the thing the Alliance is being homogenized around. It's a fan reaction to this idea that humans are naturally better at everything. You wouldn't have it if that's not what people perceived.

It doesn't matter that the line was cut, the point was still made. Humans are supreme, everyone else doesn't matter.
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Old 06-10-2018, 03:31 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
The problem there is that you no longer have any story without the Horde. Your story is then defined by the Horde.
Not really? Without the Horde, the Alliance would just turn to external threats that work as a reflection of the dark side of the Alliance, considering that's what groups like the Wolf Cult, Eredar, Highborne, and the Scarlet Crusade are. The Horde story is defined just as much by the Alliance as vice versa, even noted by some Horde characters, but if neither one faction existed that wouldn't mean there wouldn't be a story to tell with either of them.

Hell, many people complain a lot about how Legion felt like one big Alliance-fest and that there was not a single Horde representation in it, specifically the Argus campaign. So I would imagine that whatever Alliance story looks like without the Horde, it would be something like Legion.
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Old 06-10-2018, 03:47 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
The Alliance were designed to have differences that they overcome and see each other as equals, that is why each race started off with flaws like those. The Alliance were a lot more divided before Wrath, and afterwards the faction's story has always been about uniting under common ideals and principles. It is more than apparent that Blizzard never intended to setup the Alliance to be what people wish they were, which is more like the Horde where there's more racial bickering and in-fighting.
Unfortunate then, that said "uniting under common ideals and principles" was only handled in retrospect, with Vanilla and TBC showing no signs of division whatsoever. It was only in WotLK that Blizzard retroactively decided with Varian's return that the Alliance was divided and at odds that whole time and needed its own sovereign Warchief to make everyone get along.
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