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Old 07-16-2012, 12:43 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
With your first question, Omacron, does lore say that any of the other human capitals were founded as cities answering to the Arathi king? The wowpedia article doesn't seem to emphasize that.

Is there evidence that the Arathi Empire was much larger than modern Stromgarde? Otherwise, it's entirely possible that all those capital city-states were founded by frontiersman on unclaimed land.
Read me post. And also read "The Seven Kingdoms".

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Politically? When I hear about Arathor, my first thought goes to its fracturing. A lot of historical examples can be based on that, but it also depends on whether this was a single cohesive empire that took up most of Lordaeron and then fell apart (which makes me think of Alexander's Empire and the successor Greek kingdoms)...

(reminder of the Macedonian-Greek successor kingdoms)
The difference is Alexander's Empire ended because he died. Arathor Empire existed for centuries. It's more like the Roman Empire.

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But if Arathor were Rome, then Stromgarde wouldn't be Byzantium. That would go to either Lordaeron (for being prosperous and tied to the culture) or Stormwind Nation (for being prosperous and having the only surviving heir).
I agree with you. Lordaeron would work, as it became "the spiritual heir" of the old empire, being the most important kingdom in religion, territory, population, etc.
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:49 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
The difference is Alexander's Empire ended because he died. Arathor Empire existed for centuries. It's more like the Roman Empire.
I edited my post too late.

But the reason I don't see Roman, is because the Roman Empire collapsed in the midst of foreign barbarian/rival attacks. For the collapse of Arathor to mirror the collapse of Rome, non-humans should be holding the lands in Lordaeron Continent. It would be like if different Troll or Dwarf tribes took over Arathi lands, and eventually one of them even sacked Strom and declared himself the Arathi king.

But no, all of the Human kingdoms are from the same people that came from Arathor. If anyone were to be Byzantium, they would all be Byzantium, as evidenced by the fact that the heir of the Arathi has meaning to any of them.

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:53 PM
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One of the reasons why I suggested Frankish (specifically, Carolingian) was because it was internal strife that caused Strom to break apart.

Bear in mind that both Strom and the Frankish/Carolingian/Holy Roman Empires were collections of semi-independent city-states, principalities and the like in a temperate European climate.



Okay admittedly it's because I saw the Christopher Lee Charlemagne album art as someone's avatar and it got me thinking about Thoradin-as-Charlemagne recently.
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Slaman Slaman is offline

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I'd be interested in the histories and names of the Arathi Kings, and as others have said, what led to the downfall of their rule. Also, why Anduin Lothar or his recent descendants never continued the line or claimed any rights to anything, letting the Arathi bloodline die out with no hold on anything. It seems like they must have done something to be exiled, or maybe it was self-imposed by the last King.
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  #1305  
Old 07-16-2012, 12:57 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I edited my post too late.

But the reason I don't see Roman, is because the Roman Empire collapsed in the midst of foreign barbarian/rival attacks. For the collapse of Arathor to mirror the collapse of Rome, non-humans should be holding the lands in Lordaeron Continent. It would be like if different Troll or Dwarf tribes took over Arathi lands, and eventually one of them even sacked Strom and declared himself the Arathi king.

But no, all of the Human kingdoms are from the same people that came from Arathor. If anyone were to be Byzantium, they would all be Byzantium, as evidenced by the fact that the heir of the Arathi has meaning to any of them.
I see you're reasoning. We can agree that the "stability" of Arathor Empire is similar to the Roman Empire. But, as you said, they don't share their "falling reason" (one's being barbaric invasion and other's being the increasing prosperity and independence of it's "regions" or "provinces").

I don't recall any empire that disintegrated because of wealth. :/ But that could be good. An original element in Warcraft setting is allways welcome. ^^

EDIT: Omacron's post made me thing... what if Arathor begin as the Roman Empire but it's gradually turned to a Carolingian-like of Empire, without the downfall of the first?
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  #1306  
Old 07-16-2012, 01:03 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
EDIT: Omacron's post made me thing... what if Arathor begin as the Roman Empire but it's gradually turned to a Carolingian-like of Empire, without the downfall of the first?
I find that would necessitate the existence of some form of republic and a stronger seafaring culture than has ever been purported to exist in Arathor.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:06 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Well since the first one was answered...

Maybe the elemental stone circles? it's in arathi... there isn't much on ancient arathi isn't there?

Maybe how their relations with trolls since there was a troll tribe there and how did they make a troll slaying weapon (how do you make a troll slaying weapon anyway? does it like disrupt their connection with the loas stopping them from regenerating or something?)
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:14 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I find that would necessitate the existence of some form of republic and a stronger seafaring culture than has ever been purported to exist in Arathor.
You'd need more republic and more seafaring, for a similarity to the Carolingian Empire? I must be misunderstanding you somewhere.


EDIT: Sidenote: Giving the early Humans a Celtic-Brittanic culture would give them stronger ties to the Dwarves, their genetic neighbors. Also, it would justify the Arathi Highlands.

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  #1309  
Old 07-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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You'd need more republic and more seafaring, for a similarity to the Carolingian Empire? I must be misunderstanding you somewhere.
Me too... I don't see the relation. Wouldn't the rise of many powerful "nations" within the Empire be the ideal link between the Roman and the Carolingian-like imperial eras?

If you need a Republic... Dalaran could work. Or do you mean an imperial republic?
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  #1310  
Old 07-16-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Me too... I don't see the relation. Wouldn't the rise of many powerful "nations" within the Empire be the ideal link between the Roman and the Carolingian-like imperial eras?

If you need a Republic... Dalaran could work. Or do you mean an imperial republic?
I meant for it to be representative of the early Roman empire, "mare nostrum et al".
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:55 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I meant for it to be representative of the early Roman empire, "mare nostrum et al".
Strom/Stromgarde, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, and even Stormwind are coastal settlements on the Great Sea. There's a strong possibility that exploration and settlement was done through the sea. If you bring back that river connecting Lordamere Lake to the Great Sea, then Lordaeron City and Dalaran would also have ocean connections. Does Alterac still border one of the lakes? It did originally, but I don't think that's the case nowadays.

Be careful in trying to make the Arathi too much like anything in real history. Again, we don't need a Dwarven king to conquer Strom and have the High Mage of Dalaran crowning him as the king of the Magical Arathi Empire, which some would later argue as neither magical, nor Arathi, nor an empire.

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  #1312  
Old 07-16-2012, 01:59 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I really should elaborate on Dwarf/Human relations, though. There were five historical powers in the EK for much of its history but we only know the relationship Arathor had with two of them- the Elves and Forest Trolls. While we can rule out the Jungle Trolls based on sheer geography, it's surprising that the Arathi didn't have any form of interest or involvement in the War of the Three Hammers, especially since to get to the Hinterlands the dwarves would have to cross through human territory.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:01 PM
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Second, if there were any parts of ancient human/Arathi culture you'd like filled out, what would they be?
What life was like in general.

The vrykul's actions back then.

What various tribes were like, and how they fought with each other and the trolls.

If they were dumped/raised in one group and then split, or if there were multiple vrykul colonies.

What was between Howling Fjord and Lordaeron before the Sundering. Was it ocean or land? Was Daggercap Bay a bay or a lake? Did the geography help hide the humans?

Any vrykul and titanic ties they kept. Besides the legend of Tyr, right next to their capital are standing stones that are tied to the elemental planes and a rogue titan construct, guarded by a mountain giant-kobold (who have ties to troggs) alliance. Were humans a part of this?

If the Azotha are still canon, their ties to the Arathi, and if they have anything to do with Stormwind's isolation.

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What real-world culture do you see the Arathi empire based off? Roman (would that make Stromgarde Byzantium)? Celtic (look at them standing stones!)? Frankish (architecture looks low-medieval to me)?
Definitely Celtic.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
So, hey, two related questions.

One, do we know of Kul'tiras was ever said to have been part of the Arathi Empire? We know Stormwind was not founded until after the empire fell apart, and Kul'tiras is pretty geographically isolated.

Second, if there were any parts of ancient human/Arathi culture you'd like filled out, what would they be?
As other have mentioned, more history on why Arathi declined and how the last royal family member ended up in Stormwind.

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Also, question for you history buffs out there:


What real-world culture do you see the Arathi empire based off? Roman (would that make Stromgarde Byzantium)? Celtic (look at them standing stones!)? Frankish (architecture looks low-medieval to me)?
When I think of Stromgarde I think of how Hollywood (and theater before that) Imagines Sparta, lots of guys in Greek ruins with Scottish accents.

Arathi is very much the "Rome" of the warcraft setting, big empire that covers the known world before leaving behind many smaller states. so going with a Greco-Roman theme plays into this real world association, while in-universe being similar to the classical-styled titan style shown in Ulduman and Ulduar (but not Uldum, because pyramids! fuck yeah!)

But I also imagine this mixed with the Viking/Celtic thing the vrykul have going for them, so I imagine Strom at its height being a mix of thatched roofs, drystone walls and Greek columns carved with Celtic patterns.

For the Early himans themselves I imagine a similar mix of Celtic and Classical leaning more towards the Barbarian side, tunics and no togas, gold jewelry, and Celtic decoration, lots of furs and Corinthian helmets (as the Footmen still have a helmet design inspired by these).

So Celts who like Greek columns basically.


Also just to nit-pick Oma, Stone circles are not Celtic, they predate the arrival of the Celts by a fair bit
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:11 PM
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Also just to nit-pick Oma, Stone circles are not Celtic, they predate the arrival of the Celts by a fair bit
In ancient times, hundreds of years before the dawn of history... lived a strange race of people, the druids. No one knows who they were... or what they were doing...

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Old 07-16-2012, 02:11 PM
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Lands of Mystery, pages 18-19 has Brann talk about this period a bit (I'm sorry). No clue why humans were not said to be connected to the War of the Three Hammers.

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Also just to nit-pick Oma, Stone circles are not Celtic, they predate the arrival of the Celts by a fair bit
Giants did it?
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:13 PM
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I'd say pre-catholisism Frankish/any-other-germanic-tribe (for the early humans). The Night Elves already have parts of the celtic culture incorporated into their religion, and the Humans, at one point, worshiped Tyr and possibly the other watchers of Ulduar. Considering those watchers are based on gods the Germanic tribes worshiped (albeit some of them under other names), it would make sense if early humans were based on one of those tribes. Turning to the light, a religion that somehow resembles christianism, later on also makes sense in this scenario.

In conclusion Frankish

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Old 07-16-2012, 02:19 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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No clue why humans were not said to be connected to the War of the Three Hammers.
War of Three Hammers official version, currently


It seems the war took place fully within Khaz Modan and northern Azeroth-continent. Note that the Wildhammers are in Grim Batol during this time. They only migrate to the Hinterlands after the war.

So the War of Three Hammers would still be on the next continent, as far as the Arathi humans were concerned.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:23 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Stromgard was Norse or Celtic would be my guess. Norse because of the Vrykul, Celtic because all those stones in Arathi.

I wouldn't mind hearing about the early years between their abandonment by the vrykul and the founding Arathor. Maybe work the old "Azotha" concept in there somewhere? Eh.

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And also... How did House Wyrnn became the Royal House of Stormwind? Did they revolt agaisnt the Arathi?
This too.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:23 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
War of Three Hammers official version, currently


It seems the war took place fully within Khaz Modan and northern Azeroth-continent. Note that the Wildhammers are in Grim Batol during this time. They only migrate to the Hinterlands after the war.

So the War of Three Hammers would still be on the next continent, as far as the Arathi humans were concerned.
You'd still think that the humans would have some dog in the fight, or at least an interest, in a civil war in one of the continent's greatest powers.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:25 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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You'd still think that the humans would have some dog in the fight, or at least an interest, in a civil war in one of the continent's greatest powers.
Then make it happen, dude. I don't critize writers for making the fictional universes bigger or more complex.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:26 PM
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Then make it happen, dude. I don't critize writers for making the fictional universes bigger or more complex.
All in good time.

I WISH I could say "I'm writing the Rise and Fall of the Arathi Empire, but... baby steps.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:27 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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All in good time.

I WISH I could say "I'm writing the Rise and Fall of the Arathi Empire, but... baby steps.
New book: The First Guardian

A huge lifespan could put that person at any number of important occurrences.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:28 PM
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"The Arathi, a term meaning "prophets", are a Christian religious movement founded in 1926 in Kenya. Along with the African Orthodox Church, Arathi was founded by the Agikuyu in the wake of Kenya's civil unrest during the 1920. Joseph Ng'ang'a and Musa Thuo are among the sect's most notable prophets."

Is blizzard trying to tell us something?
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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New book: The First Guardian

A huge lifespan could put that person at any number of important occurrences.
Yeah but the thing is... if I anyone were to write a book about ancient humanity, I wouldn't want them to write about an immortal, elven-influenced magician with powers that are closer to that of a god than a man. I want to define "humanity" in strictly mortal terms.
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