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  #276  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:33 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
The argument still stands though. A compromise that leads to more war is not a good compromise. We've noted several open wounds in this plan, which should be hammered out, either by the pen or the sword.
The only reason "it leads to more war" is because you don't want the compromise to happen in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid
Good enough. I suppose when you think about it with the losses they've both suffered the remnants could easily be swiped away in the opening moves of a renewed war. Slight drain on resources or not.
Yeah... I expect the Eastern Horde to become less of an actual fighting force, outside of whatever support they give Stromgarde/Khaz Modan/Nethergarde in fighting the creeps, and more of a series of trading post that try to profit and prosper despite the overwhelming Alliance settlements, setting up to new lands.

In contrast, Kalimdor is mostly divided by geography, with Feathermoon only being a bit problematic in its location.
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  #277  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:44 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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The only reason "it leads to more war" is because you don't want the compromise to happen in the first place.
I'm not going to repeat my reasons. You may either go back and read them - then respond to them, or you can not. Either way, at this stage, little jabs like this one remove not one ounce of merit from the points I've raised.
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  #278  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:47 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I'm not going to repeat my reasons. You may either go back and read them - then respond to them, or you can not. Either way, at this stage, little jabs like this one remove not one ounce of merit from the points I've raised.
I addressed the military points. The only other one is "Orcs don't deserve a square centimeter of Ashenvale land, ever", which is an opinion and can't be properly addressed.
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  #279  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:53 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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I addressed the military points. The only other one is "Orcs don't deserve a square centimeter of Ashenvale land, ever", which is an opinion and can't be properly addressed.
From what I saw, you addressed the military points that stemmed from my misplaced belief that you were demanding for the Night Elves to disarm. You neglected to address that the border would continue to be a hotzone due to longstanding issues from both sides - a point for which you had actually laid the foundation in clearing up my confusion over whether the Night Elves would have to demilitarize or not.

As for my opinion, it goes back to simple carrots and sticks. If you want to get more of something, reward it. If you want to get less of something, punish it. In this case, you are rewarding aggression, and will therefore get more because the beneficiaries understand that in order to incrementally increase their lands, win or lose, war is the solution.

This is being done, mind you, to a culture that holds death in combat as honorable, and war as glorious. Instead of "we ain't had maggoty bread in three stinkin' days", you had Orcs in Warcraft III expressing a hunger to kill things.
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  #280  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:59 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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But this wasn't a set of surrender terms to punish orcs "for bad behavior". Similarly, Horde had to lose their fortresses, outposts and give up lands in the name of "better borders".

Though you may be right that the treaty cultivates conquest - the conquest of the neutral hostiles, which is what the division of SoIs outlined. THIS was, indeed, specifically done to address orcs and their warrior culture in a matter that neither threatened the Alliance, nor put the orcs into surrendering and rebuilding their "naitonal character" from the scratch.

(where did you get the idea that night elves would be disarmed in Ashenvale? neither their, nor the orcish border is colored with "demilitarization" lines)
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  #281  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:06 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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But this wasn't a set of surrender terms to punish orcs "for bad behavior". Similarly, Horde had to lose their fortresses, outposts and give up lands in the name of "better borders".

Though you may be right that the treaty cultivates conquest - the conquest of the neutral hostiles, which is what the division of SoIs outlined. THIS was, indeed, specifically done to address orcs and their warrior culture in a matter that neither threatened the Alliance, nor put the orcs into surrendering and rebuilding their "naitonal character" from the scratch.

(where did you get the idea that night elves would be disarmed in Ashenvale? neither their, nor the orcish border is colored with "demilitarization" lines)
I got the idea of demilitarization when you were asking the Night Elves to vacate their regional lounges, which is sort of like asking the army to abandon all of its military bases.

Your initial rebuttal, again, laid the foundation for my next point - which is that Ashenvale would be a perpetual battlefield, because in Ashenvale you've given the Horde a sizable chunk of what it went to war to get in the first place. The next war's treaty would grant them another chunk by your philosophy on compromise, and these wars would continue to go on.

I'm also not seeing what the Orcs really give up in Kalimdor. You gave them Dustwallow and split their remaining borders with the Tauren, and you granted them portions of occupied Ashenvale.

This would be like telling Japan that they could still have Manchuria after World War II.
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