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Old 04-07-2018, 06:15 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Default Making a Horde that can share the world: Brainstorming

Over at Spacebattles, there was an interesting over the state of the Horde:

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...#post-45553969

Quote:
Originally Posted by Start
s there anything institutionally salvageable from the current Horde?

The Horde seems to be awfully prone to getting crazy genocidal maniacs into leadership positions. And then, once those maniacs lead the Horde, the Horde also seems to be awfully prone to being unable to effectively oppose those maniacs without causing a civil war. Is there any institutional check against backsliding to the ways of the Old Horde? Because from where I'm seeing, there doesn't seem to be any.

We have had four War Chiefs. Thrall, Garrosh, Vol'Jin, and now Sylvanas. Two out of four of these leaders are genocidal maniacs. That's a fifty-fifty chance of the Horde becoming a monstrous killing machine bent on exterminating all who oppose them. Is it just me, or is the Horde institutionally prone to having insane genocidal leaders?

In real life, if any country has a fifty-fifty chance of the next leader being a genocidal warmonger bent on conquering their neighbors, and a near certain chance that said leader will get his or her way, we wouldn't let the country and its institutions exist. Everyone, the US, Russia, China, Europe, and all other countries, really, would agree to tear it all down and either start over or simply leave things in ruins, because at least a desolate ruin of a country won't invade its neighbors on a coin toss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall dun goofed
Thrall is not blameless. Thrall was the one who created the Horde. He was the one who created its institutions. The institutions that raise genocidal warmongers to power without any check whatsoever outside of civil war. The institutions that encourage blind obedience to the Horde. You say that Garrosh and Sylvanas are the problem, but they did not attain power in a spherical vacuum. The Horde, or rather, the institution of the Horde, raised them to power and then promptly failed to check them in any way.

Thrall created the Horde, and the Horde raised Garrosh and Sylvanas as its leader. The same Horde that Thrall established is the same Horde that are waging a war of extermination on innocents and civilians. There is no 'things going downhill'. If the Horde is so prone to raising genocidal warmongers to power, and then happily going along with their ambitions until their position is untenable, then the Horde never was a good thing in the first place. The Horde did not descend to rock bottom, the Horde never got out of the blood-soaked pit it was in, and no amount of smokes and mirrors can conceal this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alliance VS Horde
Here's the thing: When the Alliance does these things they are exceptions to the rule. The Alliance does not raise crazy people to leadership positions. The Alliance is not institutionally bent towards evil and depravity. The Alliance tries to check people's violent impulses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suggestion
What's extra stupid, in my view, is that the institution of Warchief has - if anything - become more absolutist with time and not less.

Really, Garrosh and his defeat should have been the death knell for the "Warchief" as in the one unquestioned (outside semi-ritualized combat) ruler of all the Horde races, a legacy holdover from the old wars of Blackhand and Doomhammer. After SOO, you'd think the constituent peoples of the Horde (themselves the rebel faction in a civil war begun by a totalitarian Warchief) would want to put checks and balances on any future Warchief, or better yet, eliminate the position entirely. Replace it with a Council, for example, or adapt a system from a non-orc race?

But no, we jump from one absolutist Warchief to another.

This is a shit system. why is it being perpetuated?

Only for the same "Rule of Cool" reasons that UA alluded to. Because the Horde has to be "Metal" (I'm a Metal fan and it really isn't Metal imho, at all, it is poseur try-hard wannabe Metal), and it has to echo the "Badass" Hordes of the past that did badass Viking things like massacre people and party hard and not think about things too much except to angst. You can't have a Council of Chiefs! Talking and consensus forming is lame! Rawr! Warchief! Make it happen no matter what!

The Horde makes no damn sense... even by the standards of the setting.
Now, it's obvious that the developers won't do anything to disrupt the status quo too much for the Horde. The question is, what can they do to have them still believably change into a society where Varian wouldn't look like a treacherous foul-up for not ordering them torched when he had the chance.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 04-07-2018 at 06:19 AM..
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:00 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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From a story telling perspective, the issue isn’t with the Horde, it’s with the lack of conflict. We should have hit total war long before Battle for Azeroth. But so much of the story has been subsumed by bigger problems.

You have 2 races that have no place on Azeroth (orcs and undead). One is an Alien transplanted from a dying world, and they’re the ones that killed it. In the real world when a species jumps continents it can be disastrous. No one should want these guys as neighbors. The other is the unholy and corrupted raising of the dead. Abominations. Both these races know exactly what they are and as such have massive chips on their shoulders, which prompt them to lash out at those who naturally don’t want to share a world with them. The only place they have in this world is the one they take.

But they’re here and people and genocide is wrong. And there are those who benefit from their presence. The Bloodhoof Tauren and Darkspear Trolls would have been wiped out without Orcish interventions. The relationship between Blood Elves and Undead is similarly mutually beneficial. Goblins just want to make money, and then they had that run in with Thrall which brought them in. As such, all these races stand by their friends.

Garrosh and Sylvanas represent the “we must carve out our place in this world with Blood because no one else will accept us. Thrall and Vol’jin represent the “we’ll make our place by helping people who will stand by us when our enemies come.”

There shouldn’t be peace between the Alliance and Horde. The primary element of Warcraft has always been conflict.
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Old 04-09-2018, 02:22 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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If that's the case then Varian is a horrid ruler for having the Alliance help the Horde for really nothing out of it then let them continue to be a threat. Seriously, no leader in reality would do stunts like that and not go down as a traitor or embarassament.

Unfortunately, we're not supposed to see him that way. We're meant to see Varian's disloyal behavior was the goodright action to do then, especially since Jaina was made to look as dastardly as possible. SOOOO, what? What is the Horde supposed to be and how come they shouldn't be Hiroshima Bombed off of Azeroth?

Last edited by Cacofonix; 04-09-2018 at 02:36 PM..
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:38 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
If that's the case then Varian is a horrid ruler for having the Alliance help the Horde for really nothing out of it then let them continue to be a threat. Seriously, no leader in reality would do stunts like that and not go down as a traitor or embarassament.

Unfortunately, we're not supposed to see him that way. We're meant to see Varian's disloyal behavior was the goodright action to do then, especially since Jaina was made to look as dastardly as possible. SOOOO, what? What is the Horde supposed to be and how come they shouldn't be Hiroshima Bombed off of Azeroth?
It’s more complicated than that. It’s simultaneously Black and White and yet there are thousands of shades of gray (which I suppose isn’t all that contradictory when you consider how many shades of gray there are in a black and white picture). Genocide could be considered the smart move. But that doesn’t make it morally right. Is it better to kill out of passion and vengeance or is it better to do it in cold blood, without remorse or pity? There’s a strong argument for orcs and undead to fall upon their own swords, but can you really blame them for wanting to survive, even if the world hates them? Can you blame Tauren and Trolls and Blood Elves for standing with those who stood with them in their time of need?

Or, to quote someone far wiser than I:
Quote:
Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.'

Then take into account that this is all fiction. That these conflicts are fabricated purely for our entertainment, and that resolution means the End of the World of Warcraft as we know it.
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