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  #26  
Old 08-06-2013, 06:57 AM
Zaelsino Zaelsino is offline

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Kael's downfall.
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  #27  
Old 08-06-2013, 06:59 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by WhinyAlly View Post
S-Doomhammer killing Lothar in honorable duel. Id go back to Lothar being assassinated by the traitorous Doomhammer. I just see this retcon as way for Blizzard to start the "Orcs are awesome and definitely not bad guys" attitude.
I felt this way at first, but I've come to change my mind for one main reason: Lothar doesn't look stupid anymore.
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  #28  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:00 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by WhinyAlly View Post
-Kael going evil. He hould have sided with Akama and betrayed Illidan and Vashj.
I think Kael had more shared history with Vashj and her other half of the highborne then with Akama and his Draenor shenanigans.

I can definitely see him ditching Illidan (especially after the laughable last mission of the Blood Elf campaign - sending Spellbreakers at Doom Towers, WTF - culminating with the whole embarrassment before a giant KJ). But I don't think he'd side with the draenei of all people.

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Originally Posted by C9H20
Also to make things more clear, I'd have him defeated in Tempest Keep as before (though perhaps I'd ease up on villainy a bit). And then on Quell'Danas he betrays the demons and helps renew the Sunwell (I'd probably cut Velen out of the picture, that never made sense in the greater story).
Personally, I thought that this is exactly what was going on back in the TBC days before 2.4.3.

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I felt this way at first, but I've come to change my mind for one main reason: Lothar doesn't look stupid anymore.
Yup.

Doomhammer, on the other hand...
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  #29  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:02 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I felt this way at first, but I've come to change my mind for one main reason: Lothar doesn't look stupid anymore.
He didn't really looked stupid. Now it only makes posters say Doomhammer was a better warrior than Lothar when he only was lucky.

Lothar is the greatest warrior Azeroth never knew. Im dying in combat only denies that. He should have destroyed Doomhammer in loyal combat.
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  #30  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:07 AM
BloodKnight BloodKnight is offline

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Similar to what other people said:

Kael'thas in BC, he went from awesome in TFT, who cared for his people to a villain that attacked his own city.

Sad he became a meme too
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You've convinced me. Sylvanas shot an infernal, I now trust her with my life.
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  #31  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:09 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I still don't get the "Spellbreakers vs Doom Towers" moment, though. Perhaps it was sort of a visual warning to the player?
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  #32  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:16 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by WhinyAlly View Post
He didn't really looked stupid. Now it only makes posters say Doomhammer was a better warrior than Lothar when he only was lucky.

Lothar is the greatest warrior Azeroth never knew. Im dying in combat only denies that. He should have destroyed Doomhammer in loyal combat.
Him losing to Doomhammer doesn't make him any less of a great warrior. Hell, I wager Lothar was probably the greatest warrior that Orgrim ever fought.

And what did Doomhammer die to again? Some random footman with a polearm? Despite that Doomhammer could be considered a great warrior as well.
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  #33  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:18 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Him losing to Doomhammer doesn't make him any less of a great warrior. Hell, I wager Lothar was probably the greatest warrior that Orgrim ever fought.

And what did Doomhammer die to again? Some random footman with a polearm? Despite that Doomhammer could be considered a great warrior as well.
Yep, I agree with Grim.
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  #34  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:20 AM
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I would have continued the Worgen starting zone into Silverpine Forest. I get that Blizzard wanted to tie their race with the Night Elves because of Kalimdor being pretty lonely Alliance-side, but their race has important commitments to Gilneas and I think their starting experience was cut abruptly short. Even if it only amounted to like eight quests, I think there should have been some retaliatory, paramilitary-style attacks on the Forsaken. Give Worgen players a chance to meet Ivar Bloodfang and maybe have a lead-in to the Shadowfang Keep storyline. The Forsaken were given some very generous treatment in Cataclysm and Blizzard should have been a bit more even-handed. And then ideally I would have the Worgen player sent to Stormwind, not Darnassus, so that they could meet King Varian and be given a choice whether they would like to help in Darkshore or Westfall (like the choice Goblins got from Garrosh).
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  #35  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:22 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
I would have continued the Worgen starting zone into Silverpine Forest. I get that Blizzard wanted to tie their race with the night elves because of Kalimdor being kinda lonely Alliance-side, but there are important commitments to Gilneas and I think their starting experience was cut abruptly short. Even if it only amounted to like eight quests, I think there should have been some retaliatory, paramilitary-style attacks on the Forsaken. Give Worgen players a chance to meet Ivar Bloodfang and maybe have a lead-in to the Shadowfang Keep storyline. The Forsaken were given some very generous treatment in Cataclysm and Blizzard should have been a bit more even-handed. And then ideally I would have the Worgen player sent to Stormwind, not Darnassus, so that they could meet King Varian and be given a choice whether they would like to help in Darkshore or Westfall (like the choice Goblins got from Garrosh).
On PvP servers, low-level worgen players could be ganked at any time while questing through a Horde zone... and making it contested would be badly unfair to the Forsaken. Probably better to just not make the war between them at all, as the execution even at the beginning was terrible.

If I had to use the worgen, I'd have made their opening quest be about confronting the Twilight's Hammer, and then... well, possibly had Gilneas be the final zone instead of the Twilight Highlands.
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  #36  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:23 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Lothar

Hear me! I know that we have suffered defeats and setbacks, and our numbers are sorely diminished! I know that Gul'dan's treachery has cost us dearly! But still we are orcs! Still we are the Horde! And our footsetps shall shake this world!



The humans have followed us to this place. They--


Umm, warchief?

Don't interrupt, Tharbek. The humans have followed us to this place. They think us beaten! They think we came here because we were fleeing their might, as a dog would flee its master! But they are wrong!



We came here because this is our stronghold, our place of strength. We came here because from here we can spill forth once more, covering this land with our steps. We came here so that we might pour out upon them again, and make them once more tremble at our name!


(coughs)

We will not wait for them to come upon us. We will not sit here idly and let them dictate the battle. No. We are orcs! We are the Horde! We will bring the fight to them, and they will learn to regret ever pursuing us here! And when--

WARCHIEF THE LEADER OF THE HUMAN FORCES IS HERE RIGHT NOW!

Hi!




So hey. Who's up for a parlay?




I swear I didn't hear that last part about how you were going to attack us by surprise. So don't worry - your secret's safe!

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-06-2013 at 07:27 AM..
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  #37  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
On PvP servers, low-level worgen players could be ganked at any time while questing through a Horde zone... and making it contested would be badly unfair to the Forsaken. Probably better to just not make the war between them at all, as the execution even at the beginning was terrible.

If I had to use the worgen, I'd have made their opening quest be about confronting the Twilight's Hammer, and then... well, possibly had Gilneas be the final zone instead of the Twilight Highlands.
Phasing, ganking's not an issue.
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  #38  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:24 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Him losing to Doomhammer doesn't make him any less of a great warrior. Hell, I wager Lothar was probably the greatest warrior that Orgrim ever fought.

And what did Doomhammer die to again? Some random footman with a polearm? Despite that Doomhammer could be considered a great warrior as well.
Mhm...you are one persuasive individual...

Ill consider your point...


Quote:
On PvP servers, low-level worgen players could be ganked at any time while questing through a Horde zone... and making it contested would be badly unfair to the Forsaken. Probably better to just not make the war between them at all, as the execution even at the beginning was terrible.

If I had to use the worgen, I'd have made their opening quest be about confronting the Twilight's Hammer, and then... well, possibly had Gilneas be the final zone instead of the Twilight Highlands.
You probably heard of this things called phasing. It does wonders, wonders!

And I like how you sugget Gilneas being the last zone for both factions when it's Alliance territory and Alliance only.
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  #39  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:32 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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You probably heard of this things called phasing. It does wonders, wonders!

And I like how you sugget Gilneas being the last zone for both factions when it's Alliance territory and Alliance only.
Oh, good bloody grief. I wanted to tie the worgen into the expansion's story and make it not suck overall. I'm trying to do the worgen a damned favor. Hell, the Alliance gets a major lead-in to a story that may have otherwise been too much about the Horde, with the worgen leading the charge!
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  #40  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:40 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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The Worgen are already tied in more than some other races (the troubles with their gates being destroyed and the southern Lowlands sinking all happened because of the Cataclysm).
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  #41  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:41 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Oh, good bloody grief. I wanted to tie the worgen into the expansion's story and make it not suck overall. I'm trying to do the worgen a damned favor. Hell, the Alliance gets a major lead-in to a story that may have otherwise been too much about the Horde, with the worgen leading the charge!
Thing is, the Worgen's story being war against the Forsaken is good because Worgens are machines of war. Brute force in the Alliance and all.

It's just that that plot was forgotten.
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  #42  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:43 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by WhinyAlly View Post
Thing is, the Worgen's story being war against the Forsaken is good because Worgens are machines of war. Brute force in the Alliance and all.

It's just that that plot was forgotten.
It'll be put to better use fighting a faction that can actually be beaten.
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  #43  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:44 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Xil's ideas are terrible as usual. Anything that might threaten the Horde's supremacy is bad and should be done away with, right?

Anyone suggesting that faction conflict should be done away with need to remember that there are a shit-ton of unresolved issues between the factions that, without warfare, would likely never get resolved. As it happens the faction with the most grievances is the Alliance, so when I see an unapologetic Forsaken fanboy say stuff like "faction conflict should stop and the Worgen shouldn't be enemies of the Forsaken" while still advocating for the Forsaken to remain the dominant force on the Lordaeron subcontinent, I see someone who is trying to shield the Forsaken from anyone who might have an issue with them by warping the narrative on a meta-level to bend around the Forsaken even further than it already does.

Quote:
It'll be put to better use fighting a faction that can actually be beaten.
So this either means Xil thinks the Forsaken are invincible or that Xil means that any faction losing would automatically be terrible story development. Either of these is terrible, wrong, and reflects your inability to grasp even the most basic aspects of what makes a compelling narrative.

Protip: The deciding factor is not "Do the Forsaken reign supreme in the end?"
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  #44  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:45 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Xil's ideas are terrible as usual. Anything that might threaten the Horde's supremacy is bad and should be done away with, right?

Anyone suggesting that faction conflict should be done away with need to remember that there are a shit-ton of unresolved issues between the factions that, without warfare, would likely never get resolved. As it happens the faction with the most grievances is the Alliance, so when I see an unapologetic Forsaken fanboy say stuff like "faction conflict should stop and the Worgen shouldn't be enemies of the Forsaken" while still advocating for the Forsaken to remain the dominant force on the Lordaeron subcontinent, I see someone who is trying to shield the Forsaken from anyone who might have an issue with them by warping the narrative on a meta-level to bend around the Forsaken even further than it already does.
Damn right.
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  #45  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:51 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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To be honest... I think I'm just gonna agree with Xil on this.

Worgen suffer from not being a relevant race because their only enemy is the Forsaken. Outside of that, it seems like they're just tagging along with the Night Elves on whatever threat they face. And sure, Orcs feel just as responsible for Gilneas, but the emotional impact isn't as heavily there because the Orcs haven't done things to the Gilneans that the Forsaken have. (Barring that one incident in the Barrens with the Rageroar clan.)

I kinda like Worgen vs. Forsaken to an extent though. It seems to have some cool horror monster vs. monster homage to it, but it's pretty much a ship that's done sailing and Blizzard is way too delicate with the Forsaken for it to continue on any further.

I remain skeptical about how Genn's character will continue to unfold, it's not looking good. I hate to say it, but it's almost guaranteed that Sylvanas would wreck his shit because she has more war cred than he does.
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  #46  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:52 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Too much minor stuff to list, so I'll limit myself to entire sources:
-Tides of Darkness novelization
-Cycle of Hatred
-That goddamn comic (and the first guardian while we're at it)
-****ing cataclysm.
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  #47  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:52 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The solution to that problem is not "cease faction conflict." The solution to that problem is "take away the Forsaken's plot armor."
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  #48  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:53 AM
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Awww, so much hatred for WoW...

I would retcon Arthas' disney moments. Part of Nerzhul/Arthas struggle side-effect it was.
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  #49  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:57 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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The solution to that problem is not "cease faction conflict." The solution to that problem is "take away the Forsaken's plot armor."
Currently working on a Lordaeron expansion that would make it work, hope ill be done with it soon to show it to you guys.

And on the Worgen relevance, they could and should be the elite race, always on the front. That's what they are after, killing machines after they have their curse. The fact we don't see at least one Worgen op on each front.
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  #50  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:57 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
To be honest... I think I'm just gonna agree with Xil on this.

Worgen suffer from not being a relevant race because their only enemy is the Forsaken. Outside of that, it seems like they're just tagging along with the Night Elves on whatever threat they face. And sure, Orcs feel just as responsible for Gilneas, but the emotional impact isn't as heavily there because the Orcs haven't done things to the Gilneans that the Forsaken have. (Barring that one incident in the Barrens with the Rageroar clan.)

I kinda like Worgen vs. Forsaken to an extent though. It seems to have some cool horror monster vs. monster homage to it, but it's pretty much a ship that's done sailing and Blizzard is way too delicate with the Forsaken for it to continue on any further.

I remain skeptical about how Genn's character will continue to unfold, it's not looking good. I hate to say it, but it's almost guaranteed that Sylvanas would wreck his shit because she has more war cred than he does.
What I had in mind, here, was to tie their origins and powers more closely to the Old Gods... possibly the Emerald Nightmare, in a way. Lord Godfrey could wind up joining the Twilight's Hammer and letting the rest in... and, in the end, possibly wind up as a worgen himself, leader of the Twilight's Scythe pack (I don't know if they'd actually have the Scythe of Elune, or just be constantly seeking it). Or, if not Godfrey, perhaps Crowley could turn evil... though I'd prefer it to be Genn, as I genuinely like Crowley a lot more and believe he serves better as a leader within the integrated Alliance, as he was against Gilnean isolationism, whereas all of our prior exposure to Genn was him being a colossal jerk.
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