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Old 02-16-2017, 11:48 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Default Rend and Maim Blackhands' original lore (before been retconned)

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Maim_Blackhand
"In Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne on Chapter 6 of the Blood Elf campaign, blademasters named Maim and Rend reside in the orc camp directly south of where the Master of Pain is located. Horde Player's Guide and Warcraft II hint that they went through the Dark Portal to Outland (and eventually became part of Magtheridon's Fel Horde). However, these events seem to be retconned in World of Warcraft."
Where exactly is it mentioned in Warcraft 2? I looked on WC2 missions' introductions and found nothing about it.
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:58 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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No, not Warcraft II. Rend and Maim's fates weren't specifically described in WCII.

The cancelled LotC game had them on the Azeroth side of the Portal, with Thrall killing them.

EDIT: The wowpedia article doesn't have the part about WC2. I've heard wowwiki can be less accurate.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Maim_Blackhand

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 02-16-2017 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:06 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
No, not Warcraft II. Rend and Maim's fates weren't specifically described in WCII.

The cancelled LotC game had them on the Azeroth side of the Portal, with Thrall killing them.
Oh, so WoWWiki is wrong.
LotC is uncanon eventually.
Why then, if Rend and Maim's fate is not described it's said they have been retconned in WoW?
Is it because of last mission of Blood Elf campaign in WC3 Frozen Throne?
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:19 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Oh, so WoWWiki is wrong.
LotC is uncanon eventually.
Why then, if Rend and Maim's fate is not described it's said they have been retconned in WoW?
Is it because of last mission of Blood Elf campaign in WC3 Frozen Throne?
Do not rely on WoWWiki, or even WoWpedia. Ever. Use them only as a source finder, nothing else. They are edited by mere members and often contain errors, fallacies or assumptions dressed as facts.

For example, the Blackmoore page says his father was a general in the Lordaeron army, citing Rise of the Lich King as its source. However, nothing such is said in the book, only that his father was a traitor general convicted of selling state secrets, with no direct indication of his nationality whatsoever, hence this statement is a mere assumption dressed as a fact.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:32 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Do not rely on WoWWiki, or even WoWpedia. Ever. Use them only as a source finder, nothing else. They are edited by mere members and often contain errors, fallacies or assumptions dressed as facts.

For example, the Blackmoore page says his father was a general in the Lordaeron army, citing Rise of the Lich King as its source. However, nothing such is said in the book, only that his father was a traitor general convicted of selling state secrets, with no direct indication of his nationality whatsoever, hence this statement is a mere assumption dressed as a fact.
Anyway, I think Blizzard in Chapter Six: Lord of Outland wanted to say us that the brothers yet passed the portal. They haven't mentioned their fate in WC2 so they did it in WC3 - in poor way, but still.
I personally prefer WoW lore of them though.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:09 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I liked what happened with Rend, but Maim just sort of... Disappeared.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:25 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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I liked what happened with Rend, but Maim just sort of... Disappeared.
Maim has been killed by the Dark Irons. It's told in-game by Eitrigg.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:44 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Anyway, I think Blizzard in Chapter Six: Lord of Outland wanted to say us that the brothers yet passed the portal. They haven't mentioned their fate in WC2 so they did it in WC3 - in poor way, but still.
I personally prefer WoW lore of them though.
Yes, the presumed retcon is that Frozen Throne had them back on Draenor while WoW had them stay on Azeroth. I think a common justification is that, now, we can say the FT heroes "Rend" and "Maim" are non-Blackhands who share the same names. Maybe they're as common as "John" or "Mary".

Similar with Deathwing. He ended BtDP dead on Draenor but shows up alive on Azeroth, so we justify by saying the human ending had a dragon's shadow passing over the portal, so we can say it was Deathwing returning.

The most fun is Zuluhed the Whacked. Day of the Dragon has him behind on Azeroth, commanding the Dragonmaw remnants at Dun Algaz (who were holding against Alliance forces at Dun Modr, across Thandol). In Burning Crusade, he's a boss on Outland/Draenor. The two justifications I like are that either:
A) Zuluhed used his unique grasp of magic to somehow cross into Outland without a Dark Portal, or
B) Nekros Skullcrusher was descending into insanity and created a personal delusion that Zuluhed was still giving him orders, from a Dragonmaw stronghold in Dun Algaz that did not actually exist. (We don't actually see Zuluhed in DotD. Just thoughts about him from other characters.)
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:19 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Maim has been killed by the Dark Irons. It's told in-game by Eitrigg.
The exact quote goes like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eitrigg's Wisdom
So Rend, yes... Rend, and his brother Maim ruled the Spire, in constant conflict with the Dark Iron dwarves. They managed to displace the dwarves in the upper portions of the city, but only after the dragons came and only after the death of Maim.
The only fact is that Maim died. It doesn't say that the Dark Irons killed him, even though that is who the Black Tooth Grin were fighting at the time. The key thing here is that Maim died, and ONLY THEN were the Dark Irons were pushed out of the upper echelons of the spire.

There's any number of different ways that Maim could have died:
  1. Died fighting the Dark Iron.
  2. Fell into lava.
  3. Nefarian kills Maim and makes it look like the Dark Irons did it in order to get an easy in with Rend.
  4. Maim went insane as a result of too many concussions and JUMPED into lava.

All of these produce the same result, but are all different stories. Whatever Blizzard intended for that story to be, the end result was that they didn't need Maim for Rend to run his WC2 cover band in Blackrock Spire for Classic WoW.
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:46 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
The exact quote goes like this:



The only fact is that Maim died. It doesn't say that the Dark Irons killed him, even though that is who the Black Tooth Grin were fighting at the time. The key thing here is that Maim died, and ONLY THEN were the Dark Irons were pushed out of the upper echelons of the spire.

There's any number of different ways that Maim could have died:
  1. Died fighting the Dark Iron.
  2. Fell into lava.
  3. Nefarian kills Maim and makes it look like the Dark Irons did it in order to get an easy in with Rend.
  4. Maim went insane as a result of too many concussions and JUMPED into lava.

All of these produce the same result, but are all different stories. Whatever Blizzard intended for that story to be, the end result was that they didn't need Maim for Rend to run his WC2 cover band in Blackrock Spire for Classic WoW.
Imho Eitrigg's words clearly suggest that war with the Dark Iron cost Maim's life.
And I somehow very doubt he fell/jumped into lava.
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:54 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Imho Eitrigg's words clearly suggest that war with the Dark Iron cost Maim's life.
And I somehow very doubt he fell/jumped into lava.
Yeah, but "clearly suggest" doesn't equal "fact."

The bottom line here is that the last line of text we have that tells us anything about Maim is Eitrigg saying WHEN Maim died, but not HOW. My point in rattling off a bunch of different scenarios is to demonstrate that the text supports ALL of those possibilities because it doesn't give us anything factual on WHAT happened to him, only WHEN it happened.
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  #12  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:01 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Yeah, but "clearly suggest" doesn't equal "fact."

The bottom line here is that the last line of text we have that tells us anything about Maim is Eitrigg saying WHEN Maim died, but not HOW. My point in rattling off a bunch of different scenarios is to demonstrate that the text supports ALL of those possibilities because it doesn't give us anything factual on WHAT happened to him, only WHEN it happened.
Okay I totally understand your doubts, conjectures and interpolations.
This forum is for this kind of shit anyway. We talk and question about shit, and we have right to do this. This is beautiful.
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