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  #6376  
Old 02-08-2017, 08:28 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Well meta wise they were obviously inspired by the WC3 version. I feel pretty sure that in WC3 the Wardens retreated to their Vault in Azsuna after the ToS, which links to having to deliver the messenger through the Pillars of AzsunE in that mission too.

In-universe, idk if they say wtf is Nashal but the library could be named after him. For shurah and sharah, well we dont know night elven
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  #6377  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:52 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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We know that Velen's family was taken by Kil'jaeden and that his son was corrupted, but what about the rest of his family? He must've had at least one more family member, his wife, so what happened with her? Did she die, or is there another corrupted family member waiting to be slaughtered? Might she even be Kil'jaeden's wife now?
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  #6378  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:54 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Wife? Mother? I thought WC male characters could give birth via parthenogenesis
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  #6379  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:57 AM
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  #6380  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:43 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
We know that Velen's family was taken by Kil'jaeden and that his son was corrupted, but what about the rest of his family? He must've had at least one more family member, his wife, so what happened with her? Did she die, or is there another corrupted family member waiting to be slaughtered? Might she even be Kil'jaeden's wife now?
Crow says: wait, let's back up. Velen's son got corrupted by the Legion and was sent to kill O'ros only to then die in Velen's arms.
Nazja says: yup.
Crow says: now you want to follow that by having Velen literally get cuckolded by Kil'jaeden banging/corrupting his wife?
Nazja says: yeah, crow, try to keep up.

There are just... so many reasons to not do this at all, and even more reasons to not do this RIGHT NOW.
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  #6381  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:53 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Crow says: wait, let's back up. Velen's son got corrupted by the Legion and was sent to kill O'ros only to then die in Velen's arms.
Nazja says: yup.
Crow says: now you want to follow that by having Velen literally get cuckolded by Kil'jaeden banging/corrupting his wife?
Nazja says: yeah, crow, try to keep up.

There are just... so many reasons to not do this at all, and even more reasons to not do this RIGHT NOW.
Why not?
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  #6382  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:04 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Crow says: wait, let's back up. Velen's son got corrupted by the Legion and was sent to kill O'ros only to then die in Velen's arms.
Nazja says: yup.
Crow says: now you want to follow that by having Velen literally get cuckolded by Kil'jaeden banging/corrupting his wife?
Nazja says: yeah, crow, try to keep up.

There are just... so many reasons to not do this at all, and even more reasons to not do this RIGHT NOW.
Well, I wouldn't really say that I want her to be corrupted. I just want to know her fate, and that happens to be a likely answer.

I mean, it's one of the worst things Kil could do to Velen.
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  #6383  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:28 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Why not?
*deep breath* hokay.

First off, Velen's wife has never been a character prior to this point. We've already introduced his son and killed him off in effectively the same scene for the sake of extracting a reaction out of Velen. This is a narrative trope that's called "fridging" a character and it's generally a weak practice, since the audience doesn't otherwise have any attachment to the character getting killed and it rather cheaply acts as a turning point for the focus character's behavior.

So to introduce Velen's wife via a passing reference to her being killed by Kil'jaeden in the past in order to get a rise out of Velen would be fridging her right out the gate, and it's a disservice to basically every character involved, ESPECIALLY if we just did it with Rakeesh.

The other possibility, of KJ cuckolding Velen by turning his wife into an agent of the Legion, takes on a whole host of other awful shades. It's still fridging her if we have to kill her; it's emphasizing the wife as a sexual object that KJ has taken ownership of, which implies Velen's ownership of her previously. All of the properties of this interaction were JUST DONE with Rakeesh except for the sexual parts, and those parts don't add anything with positive value to it, because partners as sexual objects is an awful, AWFUL narrative tactic.

Taking a step back from the narrative aspects of this, there's the part where the term "cuck" has entered the vernacular these days as something dudebros throw around to insult others, specifically invoking the act of cuckolding someone as a way to demean them. There's... there's literally nothing good about this. There's no upside: it emphasizes a romantic partner (regardless of the gender) as an object to be possessed, that can be taken away specifically to cause anguish to the original possessor, which ignores the agency of the partner being taken.

So narratively taking that act and applying it to anyone in this franchise (to say nothing of doing it to Velen of all people, after we literally just fridged his son) seems horrifically degrading to the franchise, and really only seems to encourage people who like throwing around "cuck".

(Apologies for the TVTropes link but it felt warranted here.)
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  #6384  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:29 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Bless you crow
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  #6385  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:31 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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That Velen/Rakeesh reveal/episode is one of the few bits of Legion I actually despise.

It felt, and was, absolutely asspulled and utterly not thought out.
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  #6386  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:34 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Hmm, looking at it that way, you're probably right.
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  #6387  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:41 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
*deep breath* hokay.

First off, Velen's wife has never been a character prior to this point. We've already introduced his son and killed him off in effectively the same scene for the sake of extracting a reaction out of Velen. This is a narrative trope that's called "fridging" a character and it's generally a weak practice, since the audience doesn't otherwise have any attachment to the character getting killed and it rather cheaply acts as a turning point for the focus character's behavior.

So to introduce Velen's wife via a passing reference to her being killed by Kil'jaeden in the past in order to get a rise out of Velen would be fridging her right out the gate, and it's a disservice to basically every character involved, ESPECIALLY if we just did it with Rakeesh.

The other possibility, of KJ cuckolding Velen by turning his wife into an agent of the Legion, takes on a whole host of other awful shades. It's still fridging her if we have to kill her; it's emphasizing the wife as a sexual object that KJ has taken ownership of, which implies Velen's ownership of her previously. All of the properties of this interaction were JUST DONE with Rakeesh except for the sexual parts, and those parts don't add anything with positive value to it, because partners as sexual objects is an awful, AWFUL narrative tactic.

Taking a step back from the narrative aspects of this, there's the part where the term "cuck" has entered the vernacular these days as something dudebros throw around to insult others, specifically invoking the act of cuckolding someone as a way to demean them. There's... there's literally nothing good about this. There's no upside: it emphasizes a romantic partner (regardless of the gender) as an object to be possessed, that can be taken away specifically to cause anguish to the original possessor, which ignores the agency of the partner being taken.

So narratively taking that act and applying it to anyone in this franchise (to say nothing of doing it to Velen of all people, after we literally just fridged his son) seems horrifically degrading to the franchise, and really only seems to encourage people who like throwing around "cuck".

(Apologies for the TVTropes link but it felt warranted here.)
Thank you. I believe it could be written in a way that would avoid the pitfalls you describe here, but if I had to choose between the version you describe and nothing at all, I'd certainly choose nothing at all.
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  #6388  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:51 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Maybe salvage it with some vision of the past type quests that study his son or precorruption life or something
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  #6389  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:02 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
That Velen/Rakeesh reveal/episode is one of the few bits of Legion I actually despise.

It felt, and was, absolutely asspulled and utterly not thought out.
This. It really was just "Oh yeah, btw this Eredar guy you're fighting? He's Velen's son! UNEXPECTED PLOTTWIST!"
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  #6390  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:06 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Damn, that Exodar stuff was fantastic.

The story, but especially the dialogue.
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  #6391  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:09 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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The Caverns of Time should have been used, mainly, as a bank for old dungeons when the game world advances and it no longer makes sense for the dungeon to exist, e.g SM.
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  #6392  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:17 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Thank you. I believe it could be written in a way that would avoid the pitfalls you describe here, but if I had to choose between the version you describe and nothing at all, I'd certainly choose nothing at all.
I think the key thing you'd need to do is have Velen's wife be a character in her own right. She needs her own arc, her own history.

As a point of comparison, Malfurion and Tyrande are both characters who've done their own stuff, independent of one another. We wouldn't accept Blizzard killing Tyrande strictly to get a rise out of Malfurion or vice versa, because both characters have their own importance to the overall narrative. Killing one just to spite the other would feel like a waste.

Meanwhile, look at what we have in Val'sharah. Malfurion has been captured by the Shade of Xavius, Tyrande employs the player in order to rescue him. The threat of Malfurion dying is constantly there, even throughout Darkheart Thicket when the players are rescuing him. This threat is enough to get a rise out of Tyrande; it doesn't require killing Malfurion. Indeed, killing Malfurion, if Blizzard had done it in Val'sharah, would have required it to be the logical conclusion of Malfurion's narrative.

That's the only way that Velen's wife could be handled well; her death needs to be because it's the logical conclusion of HER STORY, and not just as an accessory to Velen's story. And that story needs to be be something delivered over time, so that the audience has a sense of attachment to her for her own sake.

So yeah, I agree that Blizzard could do it, but if they wanted to do it, they would have to have started laying the groundwork for it prior to now.
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  #6393  
Old 02-12-2017, 09:05 AM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
snip
Perhaps one of the better ways to mention Velen's wife in the story, if there really is any need to do it, is by connecting her to Rakeesh's defection. Say, maybe she has died at some point during Draenei's long journey under circumstances which could allow Rakeesh to blame his father (and a spiritual leader of the exiles -- this is important), rightly or wrongly, in her demise. One way or another, it led him to fall under Kil'Jaeden's influence. I know, it's super cliche, but so is the whole premise of suddenly appearing corrupted son that dies on Velen's arms, as you have pointed out earlier.
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  #6394  
Old 02-12-2017, 12:40 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
because partners as sexual objects is an awful, AWFUL narrative tactic.
I disagree. It's not a general rule. Artemisia and Themistocles.

Unless that doesn't count for the 'partner' part.

About the matter, though, just make Kil'Jaeden torture Velen with visions of what happened to his family and the player gets to see those visions. ezpz
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  #6395  
Old 02-12-2017, 01:10 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I disagree. It's not a general rule. Artemisia and Themistocles.

Unless that doesn't count for the 'partner' part.
It's more along the lines of stating "if a single character's apparent and effectively entire purpose in a narrative is to be a sexual object for another character, then that's a pretty shitty tactic."

If we're talking Artemisia and Themistocles in the specific lens of 300: Rise of an Empire, then that's not really an example of a character being reduced to a sexual object: both characters in that situation are characters in their own right, and their encounter is arguably in-character for the two of them, since they are both using each other for selfish reasons. And it's ultimately immaterial to their respective arcs given how the movie plays out.

That's without getting into a discussion of whether those two having a sexual encounter is of narrative and/or cinematic value (i.e. is it there because it's actually key that these two get it on or is it just there to titillate), but the key I'm getting at here is that reducing a character to a sexual object is a shitty tactic. I don't think your example really counters that under scrutiny.
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  #6396  
Old 02-13-2017, 09:01 AM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Where does Murmur fit in a post-Chronicle world? Air elemental?
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  #6397  
Old 02-13-2017, 09:06 AM
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Where does Murmur fit in a post-Chronicle world? Air elemental?
I think its sound/air in same way ice is water
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  #6398  
Old 02-13-2017, 10:19 AM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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Where does Murmur fit in a post-Chronicle world? Air elemental?
If what the Codex of Blood says is true, I don't see him as an elemental, more like some kind of superior primordial essence from another plane of existence.

The codex explains that Murmur is from a dimension of the cosmos unfathomable to mortal minds and when he was born it shattered all reality around it. Not when he was summoned, when he was born in that dimension.

It's supposed to be a mindless being that can destroy worlds with its whispers.
The original civilization that worshipped it as a god was destroyed by a yawn and the only one that survived, who had arcane and dark (shadow? fel?) knowledge that none could surpass, summoned it into the world (some planet on the Great Dark Beyond?) using a method with which whole civilizations were harvested for souls to fuel soul devices used in the ritual. But they couldn't control it and Murmur caused a cataclysm that destroyed their world too. The codex is the only thing that survived.


Elementals are stated to be the most common and primordial form of life born from shards of fractured Light that ended hitting planets. Murmur not only is stated to be from a different dimension, it also was summoned and contained with souls. I don't know of other methods of using souls apart from portals through the nether and summoning demons. But Murmur is called something more akin to an elemental.

So, I don't know where Murmur fits now.
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  #6399  
Old 02-13-2017, 02:34 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Someone help me understand why the people of Bradensbrook would accept the Horde?
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  #6400  
Old 02-13-2017, 03:03 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Someone help me understand why the people of Bradensbrook would accept the Horde?
They weren't there when the Horde contributed to turning Gilneas into ruins and at most they've only interacted with and accepted the Horde PC.
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