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Old 03-25-2017, 06:54 PM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Default Chronomantic force?

Does a chronomantic force push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion? If so, are chronomancers - as mages - necromancers?

Last edited by necrophotic; 03-25-2017 at 07:23 PM..
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:10 PM
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Someone never learned about entropy.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:20 PM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Someone never learned about entropy.
And that seems to be you. Now, please just answer the question proposed by the OP instead of behaving as if a troll. You're an admin so please lead by example.

People can't die without time and so would you say death is a time-related (chronomantic) force?

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Old 03-25-2017, 07:24 PM
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Prove to me you understand it and I'll engage you.

Otherwise, my statement stands.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:32 PM
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Prove to me you understand it and I'll engage you.

Otherwise, my statement stands.
Your statement that what stands? That someone never learned about entropy? Who are you referring to?

Entropy can be defined as the representation of the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into work and is often interpreted as the degree of disorder. Sometimes it's defined as a lack of order or a gradual decline into disorder.

The Light and Void are both ultimately responsible for all entropy in the physical universe, so would you say physical manifestations of the Void are entropic horrors?

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Old 03-25-2017, 07:36 PM
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Nope, because that's not how entropy works. There is no such things as "an entropic force." There are forces that act in an entropic manner, but there is no "entropic force" that assures that entropy will occur in a specified manner. It's confluence of events, not singular focus.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:44 PM
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There is no such things as "an entropic force."
Yes there is. You're conflating the term entropy (which is a noun) with entropic (which is a descriptor). An entropic force can be defined as a force that pertains to entropy.

Seriously though, what do you mean there is no entropic force? Fel magic is entropic per canon. You can't fuel something that doesn't exist unless "that something" is a void that can contain matter and energy. And the Chronicle claiming fel magic is highly destructive is just bullshit to me because it needs to exist before it is fueled. Prior to being fueled, it would need to exist. The question to be asked and ultimately answered is if it is created and if it's automatically fueled the moment it is created. If it's not automatically fueled the moment it is created, it would just decay over time or break down. VOID ENTROPY OR HEAT DEATH!!! Consume them non-existent shadow orbs you insane shadow priests. Consume the energy of your Old Gods you hungry void lords.

Anyways, my point is....death cannot "exist" without time....or at least it wouldn't occur. So, does it not stand to reason that death is a time-related (or chronomantic) force that's pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion?

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Old 03-25-2017, 08:01 PM
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Yes there is. You're conflating the term entropy (which is a noun) with entropic (which is a descriptor). An entropic force can be defined as a force that pertains to entropy.

Do you think there is no force that pertains to entropy? Fel magic is entropic per canon.

Also, do you think Old Gods - as creatures of chaos and entropy - contain the primal force of chaos?
Chaos isn't a primal force because it's a descriptor. At no point in time has it ever been utilized in any other form. The term you're looking for is "disorder." Which is "fel" in energy. Now, funny story, disorder doesn't actually work with entropy, because entropy assumes a consistent ORDERING of matter across the cosmos. It is this ordering that causes the heat death of the universe.
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:05 PM
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Chaos isn't a primal force because it's a descriptor. At no point in time has it ever been utilized in any other form. The term you're looking for is "disorder." Which is "fel" in energy. Now, funny story, disorder doesn't actually work with entropy, because entropy assumes a consistent ORDERING of matter across the cosmos. It is this ordering that causes the heat death of the universe.

Ummm...no. chaos is a noun that can be defined as a state of utter confusion or disorder. It can also mean the infinity of space or formless matter supposed to have preceded the existence of the ordered universe. Check the dictionaries. Chaotic is the descriptor here.

Edit: Mhhh...I think we are using different definitions of terms. Tis' may be a problem. Anywho, don't you think though that death, when regarding to WoW, is a time-related (or chronomantic) force of some sort?

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Old 03-25-2017, 08:15 PM
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Ummm...no. chaos is a noun that can be defined as a state of utter confusion or disorder. It can also mean the infinity of space or formless matter supposed to have preceded the existence of the ordered universe. Check the dictionaries.
In the context you use it...yeah, my definition still applies.
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:54 PM
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In the context you use it...yeah, my definition still applies.
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In the context you use it...yeah, my definition still applies.
We're delving slightly off topic, but as creator of the thread I hereby permit us to proceed.

Anyways, when regarding to WoW, what exactly do you think disorder mean? Obviously, there are different definitions of the term and stating fel magic is the "force" of disorder doesn't really mean much to me (don't kill me for my language) if the definitions of terms are irrelevant. What is fel about because, honestly, the whole Chronicle makes me want to take a drill and you know.... Given that fel magic is the "highly destructive force" used by the Burning Legion and the Burning Legion's very goal is to destroy the structures of all worlds and, by extension, the living beings of those worlds, I'd state fel magic is death/necromantic magic of some sort because its destructive to the living and would destroy their structures, breaking them down into the parts that they're constructed of and making them appear lesser orderly than undead, tethering them to a demonic abyss that is normally imperceptible to mortals.

It seems to me, though, as if fel magic isn't treated as necromantic because it's HIGHLY destructive and that just makes me blank out, twitch, and say, "whaaaat?" It seems as if fel magic is treated as if it's a fire, but do warlocks use Decay to weaponize it? No, because it's not an element. Did Sargeras use Decay to weaponize the fel storm that obliterate the titans (living worlds?)? Probably not because fel storm is a misnomer and is really just fel magics given the appearance of that element. This is what makes me cry inside. To me, fel magic is what brings worlds and, by extension, the living beings inside them to a state of oblivion. To me, fel magic is death....Death to all worlds.

Perhaps fel magic isn't death per-se but merely a death-giving force if it it's opposite, arcane magic, is literally a life-giving force or lifeblood? Perhaps the reason why necromancy is described as a school of arcane magic is because fel magic is arcane magic's opposite? It really does seem to me that fel magic can come from arcane energies because if the War of the Ancients serve as any evidence, demons and their fel energies can come out of arcane portals composed solely of arcane energies and, so in a sense, perhaps from arcane came fel? I like this because it ultimately returns fel magic to being the ultimate manifestation of the demonic arcane - as it is in the RPG.

Aside from that, didn't that arcane-using priest from the Klaxxi claim that chaos is order is unrecognized by a lesser mind? Now, an arcane-using acolyte of an Old God may not be a Paragon of Sanity, but given his logic, he's a fel user. Given his logic, necromancy is a school of arcane magic.


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Old 03-25-2017, 09:03 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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One might consider that when it comes down to it, while the Disorder it represents is very much a part of everything, actual fel isn't considered something that belongs in the physical universe. However it does belong in the Twisting Nether. Conversely, arcane does exist naturally in the physical universe, independently of anyone calling it there on purpose. Things like leylines just "happen" on planets whether they have world-souls inside or not. The physical universe shows a predisposition toward Order, in opposition to and in theoretical balance with the Twisting Nether's disposition toward Disorder.

So in that vein, fel isn't inherently entropic in and of itself, as its Disorder is perpetual and has no terminus when in the Twisting Nether where it originates and belongs, and where the eventuality of the uniform order inherent to entropy never occurs. However one could posit that localized entropy is the Ordered physical universe's natural response to the introduction of super-concentrated Disorder as embodied by fel.

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:31 PM
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One might consider that when it comes down to it, while the Disorder it represents is very much a part of everything, actual fel isn't considered something that belongs in the physical universe. However it does belong in the Twisting Nether.
=[

Ummmm....are you sure about that? According to the Chronicle, fel magic is fueled by drawing life from living beings and, even though energy can't be created when regarding to real life, fel magic is created according to Sean. Wouldn't fel magic just "break down" over time, "die out", or "stop operating" if it's just floating in the Nether without any fuel? Without any fuel, fel magic would just stop operating or functioning no? Why it's called highly destructive is somewhat of an enigma to me. Perhaps it's "destructive" because it's addictive?

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Conversely, arcane does exist naturally in the physical universe, independently of anyone calling it there on purpose. Things like leylines just "happen" on planets whether they have world-souls inside or not. The physical universe shows a predisposition toward Order, in opposition to and in theoretical balance with the Twisting Nether's disposition toward Disorder.
And fel magic doesn't "exist naturally" in the physical universe? I'd state arcane magic doesn't exist "naturally" in the physical universe. The titans ordered worlds but the question to be asked is why? Were those worlds disorderly in the first place? Were the elements of those worlds disorderly? If so, why was there no mention of fel magics manifesting in those worlds or affecting those worlds? Why order something that's already ordered? Why consume Spirit, giving rise to chaotic and destructive elementals, order those elementals, then purge worlds of life if the evolutionary paths succumb to disorder? Titans are akin to evil, fork-tongued demons who wouldn't mind rearranging the face of their sleeping, baby relatives. They be cold blooded.

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:40 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Let's compare a necromancer to a holy priest.

Holy priests are focused on healing, aren't they?

You can even pick a word for a class very specialized in healing life forms. A biomancer, whatever.

And then apply the reverse logic of that:

Quote:
Does a chronomantic force push things toward a state of regeneration and eventual changelessness? If so, are chronomancers - as mages - biomancers?
By that logic, they would heal with time, being the same as holy priests, or biomancers, or any specialist on healing.

But they are not!

Biomancers would be that way because they would be tied to nature.

Holy priests are that way because they are tied to the holy light.

Necromancers are that way because they are tied to decay.

Chronomancers are tied to the arcane.

Do you see the difference?

It doesn't matter if the end result is the same; you mustn't ignore the process and what lies therein.

It's like doing a trip around the world, in the end getting exactly where you started; if you ignore what you saw in the way, in the process, your trip itself, it would be the same as doing a simple step forward.

EDIT: And regarding the titans being evul guyz who are shamelessly ordering planets, they intentions on doing that should be on preventing the threat of the void, and by this way securing the safety of the unborn titans. However, if you ask me why they have been ordering planets even before they knew of the void lords, then I wouldn't be able to answer you.
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:45 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Does a chronomantic force push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion? If so, are chronomancers - as mages - necromancers?
Would it follow that the passage of time itself counts as necromancy, per this definition?

If I stab an orc with a sword and kill him, he dies. His body starts to decay. Necromancy?
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:50 PM
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Krainz, do you know all living practitioners are tied to decay in some way? Do you know that communing with holy spirits of Light (e.g. Odyn's Val'kyr) can still technically be defined as necromancy right? You do know that death can't transpire without time right? Death is literally a time-related/touched force.

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Would it follow that the passage of time itself counts as necromancy, per this definition?

If I stab an orc with a sword and kill him, he dies. His body starts to decay. Necromancy?
No because stabbing an orc with a sword isn't the same as using a time-related, magical force that - as a force - would push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion with time. The very nature of living beings is to decay and die with time.

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:56 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Krainz, do you know all living practitioners are tied to decay in some way?
Maybe.

They may be theoretically tied, as in even druids can meddle into decay. However, most of those said practitioners don't partake into the practics of decay.

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Do you know that communing with holy spirits of Light (e.g. Odyn's Val'kyr) can still technically be defined as necromancy right?
No, because necromancy is tied to decay and holy spirits of light are tied to life.

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You do know that death can't transpire without time right? Death is literally a time-related/touched force.
So is a sword to the chest.

Now warriors are necromancers.


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No because stabbing an orc with a sword isn't the same as using a magical (or "mantic") force that can technically have more than one descriptor.
Okay. A fireball to his face then. What now?

Edit: and by the way, while a chronomancer mage isn't a necromancer, an actual necromancer may be interested in learning some time-decay spells to rapidly age his enemies or even speed up the decay process triggered by his abilities. However, even if he does that kind of thing, it wouldn't be his main focus, as his main abilities are strictly tied to death and decay.

If you keep that same logic of yours, you'll start saying that civil engineers and architects are the same, or even worse, that all engineers are the same thing.

Maybe Warcraft is League of Legends.
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:59 PM
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Maybe.
Actually yes because living beings decay over time.

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No, because necromancy is tied to decay and holy spirits of light are tied to life.
Actually yes because Val'kyr are undead and the practice involving the undead is what necromancy is defined as. You're conflating necromancy, which is a practice, with necromantic magic, which is an energy involved that practice.
For shame.

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So is a sword to the chest.

Now warriors are necromancers.
Nope
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:00 PM
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Whoops, necro, you referenced a Dev. -10 points to your argument. You're creating your own universe, so you can't do that.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:02 PM
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Actually yes because Val'kyr are undead and the practice involving the undead is what necromancy is defined as. You're conflating necromancy, which is a practice, with necromantic magic, which is an energy involved that practice.
For shame.
Oh! I totally forgot shamans are necromancers!

How silly of me.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:03 PM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Whoops, necro, you referenced a Dev. -10 points to your argument. You're creating your own universe, so you can't do that.
Hehehe. Why you say dat? A dev is not canon?

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shamans are necromancers!
Technically, yes. You're right in this case if shaman - when regarding to WoW - speak to the spirits of the dead.

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Edit: and by the way, while a chronomancer mage isn't a necromancer, an actual necromancer may be interested in learning some time-decay spells to rapidly age his enemies or even speed up the decay process triggered by his abilities. However, even if he does that kind of thing, it wouldn't be his main focus, as his main abilities are strictly tied to death and decay.
What about warlocks who drain life with a technically time-related force to rot? Is that necromancy? Drain life is a key necromantic spell used by necromancers and is buffed by the affliction warlock's secrets of the necrolyte passive.

Or what about a pyromancer in ICC who focuses on using fire magic to raise the dead?

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If you keep that same logic of yours, you'll start saying that civil engineers and architects are the same, or even worse, that all engineers are the same thing.
Nope but if you keep that same logic of yours, you'll end arguing that magic defined as necromantic is defined as such just because it pushes things toward a state of entropic decay instead of arguing that it's defined as such because it relates to the dead. Even worse, you'd end up arguing that fel energy that relates to - or exist inside - the undead isn't necromantic.

Edit: This discussion reminds me of the Eye of Kilrogg spell. Does anyone know if it's still a necromantic spell? Given that mortal souls can be tainted by fel energies and mortal souls go to Shadowlands, perhaps it's entirely possible for fel energies to exist inside the Shadowlands. Perhaps warlocks who invoke the Eye of Kilrogg are invoking the fel (*cough* necromantic) energies of Kilrogg's fel-tainted soul and making them appear as ghostly eyeballs.

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Old 03-25-2017, 10:08 PM
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Hehehe. Why you say dat? A dev is not canon?
Not according to your world view, no. Sorry, argument disallowed.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:27 PM
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Does a chronomantic force push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion?
First of all, "chronomantic force" is something that you made up. I will define it, based on the second sentence, as the forces generated through chronomancy by chronomancers, which are time-based.

Based on the real second law of thermodynamics, time is an entropic constant, more or less. However, if in Warcraft time and entropy are something else, then they are something else.

The fact that in Warcraft one can go back in time, therefore reducing entropy in the real-world sense, calls into question the relationship between real time and Warcraft time. Fantasy is fantasy.

Quote:
If so, are chronomancers - as mages - necromancers?
This can have several definitions: the practice of necromancy, the use of necromantic magic, or the raising of the dead into the undead in the general sense.

In this case I will define and necromancer as someone who uses necromantic magic. True necromantic magic is directly related to death magic, per Chronicle.

Entropy in Warcraft could be anything in the fel/disorder sphere, the void/shadow sphere, or the death/necromancy sphere. It could also be the element of decay, which is made of void/shadow magic mixed with death/necromantic magic.

Mages and arcanists use arcane, which is not within the above but capable of manipulating all of the above to some extent.

Chronomancers could speed up entropy in the real-world sense, but the connection to necromancy is so vague that I would say that they are not necromancers. Without working definitions, a better answer cannot be found.

As you have made up the definitions, you already have an answer.

Edit: Clarified a single word.
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Ten.

Years.

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Old 03-25-2017, 10:28 PM
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First of all, "chronomantic force" is something that you made up. I will define it, based on the second sentence, as the forces generated through chronomancy by chronomancers, which are time-based.
No it's not. Chronomatic anomalies and forces exist in WoW dude. Chronomatic magic is what chronomancers use. Doi...

Get wrecked son.


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This can have several definitions: the practice of necromancy, the use of necromantic magic, or the raising of the dead into the undead in the general sense.

In this case I will define and necromancer as someone who uses necromantic magic. True necromantic magic is directly related to death magic, per Chronicle
You do know that people here would literally state magic described as necromantic is only defined as such because it pushes things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion? You do know that technically any magic used to raise the dead is technically necromancy right?

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Mages and arcanists use arcane, which is unrelated to the above but capable of manipulating all of the above to some extent.
So arcane is unrelated to the above? That's interesting because arcane is fel's opposite and necromancy was defined as an arcane art many times.

Last edited by necrophotic; 03-25-2017 at 10:38 PM..
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:33 PM
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So fel is unrelated to the arcane? Interesting theory. Please, tell me moaaaaar.
Fel/disorder and arcane/order are two types of magic opposed to each other on the same axis. They are related, but not the same.
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Ten.

Years.
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