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Old 06-17-2016, 04:31 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Default Draenei age, "immortality" and the twisting nether

An interesting conversation on Rufin's WoW lore reddit made me realize an interesting possibility; we all know the Draenei left Argus 25,000 years before TBC and there are Draenei like Velen and Jessera who were alive at that time, which implies the race is either incredibly long lived or outright immortal, eclipsing even the night elves. And unlike almost any other race on Azeroth, I believe Draenei are said to age at a slower rate, as Med'an's quarter draenei parentage made him look about half his actual age or so.

But then someone pointed out that the Draenei fled Argus in a ship that travels through the Nether. Where time has no meaning.

Could it be that a much smaller timeframe passed for the Draenei between their leaving Argus and arriving to other worlds? Every time they pop back into the nether on the Genedar, thousands of years may have passed in the physical realm while only a few weeks went by in their ships.
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Old 06-17-2016, 05:31 PM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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With the revelations of the way time works in the Nether in Legion, that certainly makes a lot of sense. I believe the very first quest on Azuremyst also mentions cryogenic sleep.

They're still very long lived though, even if not quite as long as we may have believed.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:14 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by Ratatosk View Post
With the revelations of the way time works in the Nether in Legion, that certainly makes a lot of sense. I believe the very first quest on Azuremyst also mentions cryogenic sleep.

They're still very long lived though, even if not quite as long as we may have believed.
Cryogenic pod wreckage is a major part of the Azuremyst Isles, but the draenei may or may not have had them on the Genedar.
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Ten.

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Old 06-18-2016, 12:13 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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The Draenei are clearly regressing in terms of technology as time goes on. The quest text in WoD makes it sound like they used to terraform the worlds they lived on completely.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:26 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The Draenei are clearly regressing in terms of technology as time goes on. The quest text in WoD makes it sound like they used to terraform the worlds they lived on completely.
When did the other worlds even come up? Every callback to their old technology seems to be about how great it was back on Argus.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:50 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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When did the other worlds even come up? Every callback to their old technology seems to be about how great it was back on Argus.
It was just to their homeworld but based on the reactions it seems likely they've done it before.

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Old 06-18-2016, 09:00 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Regressing on tech makes sense. They no longer have the means to produce such tech.
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Old 06-18-2016, 10:00 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Also I think they had never stayed for so long in one world, thus never having had the time to learn or care so much about it.
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Old 06-18-2016, 10:22 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Considering how the draenei have cobbled-together technology while the Legion utilizes vast infrastructures of soul-powered engines, fel power distribution and the like, I'm inclined to think most of the greatest eredar engineers and artificers probably became man'ari along with the majority of their people, and the draenei simply didn't end up left with enough knowledge and expertise to replicate what Argus had on the worlds they subsequently inhabited.

After all, if you took a bunch of modern human refugees and dumped them on another planet (one they could actually live on), even with some engineers among them they wouldn't necessarily be able to reproduce the telecommunication and power networks we have here on Earth. Doing so would require them to live there for generations uninterrupted. Having the technology doesn't mean everyone's an expert on it. A ton of people have cell phones these days, but very few of them could actually build one.
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Old 06-19-2016, 12:28 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Considering how the draenei have cobbled-together technology while the Legion utilizes vast infrastructures of soul-powered engines, fel power distribution and the like, I'm inclined to think most of the greatest eredar engineers and artificers probably became man'ari along with the majority of their people, and the draenei simply didn't end up left with enough knowledge and expertise to replicate what Argus had on the worlds they subsequently inhabited.

After all, if you took a bunch of modern human refugees and dumped them on another planet (one they could actually live on), even with some engineers among them they wouldn't necessarily be able to reproduce the telecommunication and power networks we have here on Earth. Doing so would require them to live there for generations uninterrupted. Having the technology doesn't mean everyone's an expert on it. A ton of people have cell phones these days, but very few of them could actually build one.
To be fair, engineers don't have magic and alchemy. Real world engineer's can't transmute rocks into platinum or create flames hot enough to smelt steel with their bare hands. Magic can replace a shit ton of the complicated infrastructure need to kickstart industry.
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Old 06-19-2016, 01:41 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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The question of the Draenei age is a complicated debate because there has been inconsistencies which where never explained (beyond the original retcon). At first, it seemed that they were immortals (Jessera was a prime example of that) but there was the question of why Velen looked old when the others didn't.

Then, as far as I remember, we had TBC which implied that the Draenei lived in Draenor for a very long time, even for them, but Rise of the Horde said they had spent only 200 years here (and I don't remember if it was addressed or not in WoD). If the latter is true, the Draenei are also implied to only having been able to live a couple of years on other planets before Draenor. In any case, I have no memory of a Draenei specifically born either in the Genedar or an other world than Argus or Draenor, which support the fact that they lived for very short times on other worlds.

It should also be noted that if the Draenei only spent 200 years on Draenor, then their population grew at an astounding rate : per Rise of the Horde, only mere hundreds joined Velen when he fled Argus. In WoD, with all their villages and immense temples, it is clear that the Draenei are numbered in the thousands, if not more. But in the regard of numbers, Rise of the Horde was problematic : the orcish clans were far too few to wage a war of annihilation against the Draenei, then between them and then against Azeroth with such ease. Another problem of RotH was the question of the Ata'mal crystal, which had been a gift from the Naaru to the Eredar, the latter of whom had forgotten all about it, which at a time when they were believed immortals made a lot of problems for the lore.

But with the recent evolutions of the lore, I think we can try to devise some reason behind all of this.

If Velen is looking older, it is probably because he was the one who was always awake when the Genedar reached a planet -which had to happen at frequent intervals if K'ure hadn't the time to restore his forces. Velen was probably never put into cryogenic sleep (if the Draenei had access to it, which would be logical since the Genedar and the Exodar are both Naaru technology) anyway, since he probably wished to talk a lot with the Naaru. Therefore, Velen is most probably several thousand years older than when he left Argus, possibly even the only Draenei to truly have lived the 25 000 years of their Exile, if the jump trough the neither were blimps.

The fact that Time does not exist as we know it in the Twisting Neither also helps to explain why their exile lasted 25 000 years if the jumps aren't as quick as a blimp. For most of the Draenei it is possible that only three or four thousand years have passed in biological time, while the rest of the universe had to endure 25 000 years of Burning Crusade.

The existence of leaders before the Triumvirate also explains why the Ata'mal origin was forgotten by the Eredar : being one of the eldest race of the universe, they were probably visited by the Naaru in their early history, and being mortal (if very long-lived) beings, they had slowly forgotten about the origins of their relic.

Regarding their technology, it was probably only on Draenor that they could use most of it, even if the disputes between the Exarchs implies that the rangari and artificers had previous discussions about it on other worlds, which would be logical, since both groups were probably necessary and vital to create viable settlements for the other Draeneï, by securing the land and building homes (even if the latter was probably the reason behind the ever returning Burning Legion). However, I disagree with ARM when he says that the Dranei were short on Engineer compared to the other Eredar. In fact, I think that there was proportionally more engineers among the Draenei than the man'ari, since the Legion technology is always tied to the mo'arg and gan'arg in TBC and latter expansions. The eredar man'ari seems more attuned to magic, and fel prowess than mechanical and technological wonders, no matter how magical those prowess also are.

After their genocide, it is certain that the Draenei lack both proper numbers and skilled engineers, which explains why they have been unable to even replicate their basic settlement from Draenor on the Mist Isles. Now, if Blizzard wished so, they could make use of the alternate-Dranor Draenei to help them (and in fact with Velen stating that they are "going home", getting back the Alternate Draenei should be at the top of his to-do list, no matter what he intents to do on Argus).
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Old 06-19-2016, 01:45 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
To be fair, engineers don't have magic and alchemy. Real world engineer's can't transmute rocks into platinum or create flames hot enough to smelt steel with their bare hands. Magic can replace a shit ton of the complicated infrastructure need to kickstart industry.
Well, yes and no. It can only "replace" it insofar as you need the mages standing there doing it instead of being able to eventually automate the whole thing so that anyone can take over from there. The key to sustainable industry is that it can't require that the same guys who made the boilers or the engines remain on hand at all times to maintain and operate them. Smelting steel with your bare hands sounds convenient, but you're really not doing it very efficiently if you have to be there yourself, doing it with your own bare hands. Ideally you'd want to design a device that can do the job whether you're there or not.

The vibe I got from the heavy emphasis on artifice and crystalline technology in WoD is that the draenei mastery of magic wasn't simply a matter of being a planet-sized Dalaran where finger-waving mages conjured up arcane amenities for everyone. They weren't all about the fireball-flinging, blinking and polymorphing that dominates most WarCraft magic. That stuff would've existed, but wasn't necessarily the focus of their greatest mastery. After all, one will note the general dearth of particularly important mages in draenei society, yet there are arcane engineers, artificers and technicians all over the place. They don't even seem to have a particular "organization" of mages; draenei mages appear essentially as military spellcasters, while it's the builders and the artisans we see associated with their society's more widespread use of arcane magic.

It gave me a sense that rather than having classical mages in charge like Silvermoon, Dalaran or the old kaldorei empire, they basically figured out how to control magic like a sustainable fuel, in effect making it the power source behind their technology rather than just having tons of people who could magically levitate and transmute things themselves. Such that it wasn't about covens of mages accruing magical knowledge in their dusty tomes; it could've been more about guilds of master engineers and artificers pooling their know-how so aspiring eredar could learn how arcane capacitors and nether batteries work from textbooks.

One doesn't necessarily create a planetwide magical utopia by just having a ton of powerful magisters who know a leyline better than anyone else. That bottlenecks the whole thing to only those who know the spells having to do the heavy lifting. Ideally one would want do it by figuring out how to harness and refine arcane energy through technology, so that technicians without any innate talent for levitation can move around even more magical power than any one mage could manage by flipping a crystalline switch on the distribution hub down at the Mac'Aree Municipal Arcane Power Plant.
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Old 06-19-2016, 01:59 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It makes me wonder just how much of the technology that the draenei used in Draenor is theirs and not just them using naaru technology wholesale.

Considering how much they rely on crystals, you have to wonder if they relied on them as much back on Argus.
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Old 06-19-2016, 02:02 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Well, Argus is described as a planet with crystalline mountains, at the very least. It is quite possible that the Eredar had access to this kind of crystal-empowering devices for thousands of years, and that it is the reason behind their own mastery of Naaru technology.
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Old 06-19-2016, 09:54 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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I don't remember where I read this, but the Draenei are said to have move from magic based mage society with a priestly class to a theocratic society that has semi-strict castes.
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