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Old 11-20-2012, 05:07 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Default Ironforge, anyone?

Hello there! The registration for the site has finally been fixed, so I can actually post now! I've been reading for a while, and I've been seeing an awful lot of talk about Night Elves and Humans and Stormwind being the most powerful Alliance nation, so now I am going to have to step in here and say - Remember the dwarves, look at their world situation, now compare it to the humans. Then tell me how Stormwind is realistically the most powerful nation in the Alliance.

This will not be an "The dwarves would absolutely destroy any race that tried to fight them in total war.", I am quite well grounded in the fact that dwarves can die and lose.

The dwarves have suffered losses as have all the races in Warcraft, but here's the important bit - They've suffered less over all and have even gained.

Humans have lost entire Kingdoms and entire populations, multiple times in some cases. The dwarves have not.

I have long argued on the Story forums on the actual site that Ironforge is possibly the most powerful nation in the Alliance, but it is currently not able to bring its power to bear due to its political situation hamstringing it.

I do not say this entirely without merit, I do my best to ponder upon what we have been given in game and in lore and from there draw educated conclusions (That I am quite willing to debate).

Population: Contrary to popular belief, dwarves are not dying out like they are in other Fantasy settings, they are easily among the most populous races on Azeroth alongside Night Elves and humans. So let's just stop there and say dwarves are not at a disadvantage in that regard.

Industrial: Absolutely mammoth, I doubt anyone will question that, Ironforge is capable of churning out thousands of weapons and armour pieces a day, and this is before we factor in other industrial capabilities.

Economical: No solid evidence, but no where have we seen dwarves complaining about lack of funds or a general lack of money, like we have with humans in Westfall, from this I deduce that Ironforge is quite well off economy wise.

Military: Here's the thing, we don't see any dwarven military forces - All we see is dwarves wearing Stormwind tabards (Which annoys me greatly, by the way). The Bronzebeards were, at the very least, able to contend with the Orcish Horde after the First War for around two years. (The Horde Invasion of Khaz Modan is woefully uncovered). However, I will take a look at the only place we see purely dwarven forces operational - Hillsbrad Foothills, the Stormpikes. Now, we know for a fact the Stormpikes are a -part of the Bronzebeard Clan-, if they can gather a force as formidable as the one in Hillsbrad from their own pockets as it were, I would hazard an educated guess the Kingdom of Khaz Modan can probably quadruple that, added with Dark Iron support in the form of black ops and golems, and Wildhammers with gryphon riders and you probably have an army, or even multiple armies, that would give any other nation on Azeroth a serious run for its money, if not deliver them outright defeat.

Point I mean to make in my first ever post and thread on these forums - Do not forget the dwarves. Ironforge lead and was the center of the Alliance in Vanilla WoW, Ironforge provided the most forces on behalf of the Alliance for the Opening of Ahn'qiraj. I am fairly tired of dwarves being portrayed as human side-kicks only in WoW, and it annoys me even more that people just accept this instead of speaking out against it like they do with Night Elves.

You'll probably see me posting a lot soon, I look forward to the debates! Feel free to comment/debate and ask me questions in this thread too! I'm happy to answer and elaborate!

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 11-20-2012 at 05:19 AM..
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:27 AM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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It largely comes down to one simple fact: they aren't humans. For the same reason that Tyrande's first hint of actual in-game activity amounts to her trying to Leeroy her way into a killbox, only to be prevented from doing so by the timely intervention of her glorious human overlord, you're unlikely to see any activity out of Ironforge that could conceivably allow it to overshadow Stormwind. I don't like it either, and I'll be damned if the direction the Alliance has been taking recently doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth, but with Anduin getting set up as the next messiah of Warcraft I doubt the period of human supremacy is going to end any time soon.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:28 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Hello there! The registration for the site has finally been fixed, so I can actually post now! I've been reading for a while, and I've been seeing an awful lot of talk about Night Elves and Humans and Stormwind being the most powerful Alliance nation, so now I am going to have to step in here and say - Remember the dwarves, look at their world situation, now compare it to the humans. Then tell me how Stormwind is realistically the most powerful nation in the Alliance.

This will not be an "The dwarves would absolutely destroy any race that tried to fight them in total war.", I am quite well grounded in the fact that dwarves can die and lose.

The dwarves have suffered losses as have all the races in Warcraft, but here's the important bit - They've suffered less over all and have even gained.

Humans have lost entire Kingdoms and entire populations, multiple times in some cases. The dwarves have not.

I have long argued on the Story forums on the actual site that Ironforge is possibly the most powerful nation in the Alliance, but it is currently not able to bring its power to bear due to its political situation hamstringing it.

I do not say this entirely without merit, I do my best to ponder upon what we have been given in game and in lore and from there draw educated conclusions (That I am quite willing to debate).

Population: Contrary to popular belief, dwarves are not dying out like they are in other Fantasy settings, they are easily among the most populous races on Azeroth alongside Night Elves and humans. So let's just stop there and say dwarves are not at a disadvantage in that regard.

Industrial: Absolutely mammoth, I doubt anyone will question that, Ironforge is capable of churning out thousands of weapons and armour pieces a day, and this is before we factor in other industrial capabilities.

Economical: No solid evidence, but no where have we seen dwarves complaining about lack of funds or a general lack of money, like we have with humans in Westfall, from this I deduce that Ironforge is quite well off economy wise.

Military: Here's the thing, we don't see any dwarven military forces - All we see is dwarves wearing Stormwind tabards (Which annoys me greatly, by the way). The Bronzebeards were, at the very least, able to contend with the Orcish Horde after the First War for around two years. (The Horde Invasion of Khaz Modan is woefully uncovered). However, I will take a look at the only place we see purely dwarven forces operational - Hillsbrad Foothills, the Stormpikes. Now, we know for a fact the Stormpikes are a -part of the Bronzebeard Clan-, if they can gather a force as formidable as the one in Hillsbrad from their own pockets as it were, I would hazard an educated guess Ironforge can probably quadruple that, added with Dark Iron support in the form of black ops and golems, and Wildhammers with gryphon riders and you probably have an army, or even multiple armies, that would give any other nation on Azeroth a serious run for its money, if not deliver them outright defeat.

Point I mean to make in my first ever post and thread on these forums - Do not forget the dwarves. Ironforge lead and was the center of the Alliance in Vanilla WoW, Ironforge provided the most forces on behalf of the Alliance for the Opening of Ahn'qiraj. I am fairly tired of dwarves being portrayed as human side-kicks only in WoW, and it annoys me even more that people just accept this instead of speaking out against it like they do with Night Elves.

You'll probably see me posting a lot soon, I look forward to the debates! Feel free to comment/debate and ask me questions in this thread too! I'm happy to answer and elaborate!
Welcome to Scrolls of Lore, mate.


Dwarves are powerful, yes. They are also most likely the most populous race of the Alliance. But at the same time, their political condition is in dire straits. The Council disagrees with each other. Also, dwarves don't wear Stormwind tabards. They wear Alliance tabards. The Lion is the symbol of the Alliance, and although I dislike it and prefer the Icon of Courage, the fact remains that it is still the Alliance symbol and dwarves will wear it. Also, remember that dwarves and humans are very friendly with each other.


Stormwind is powerful but not because of economy or numbers, but because of military. It's economy is poor, and numbers don't seem to be that high. And I don't think that it is extremely powerful. I feel that their strength could be due to it being the Last Bastion of Humanity, and therefore, it has probably got surviving humans from all kingdoms. Not to mention the fact that Humans are versatile.

Therefore, most likely, the reason why we don't get to see many dwarves doing great stuff is because of their political condition.

EDIT- Also, people don't speak out against Dwarves being sidekicks is because, they have always been friendly with humans. Nelves on the other hand, are proud and xenophobic. To see them behave like this in front of a much younger race is horrible. Dwarves, on the other hand, are best buddies with Humans.

Last edited by CoDimus the Staunch; 11-20-2012 at 05:34 AM..
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:28 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Thank you for the swift replies! You'll have to forgive me if I get a wee bit overzealous in arguing my points, dwarves being my favourite race and all, I'll endeavor to keep myself civil!

You make excellent points, of course, the position of the dwarves in the world is by no means secured, but the threat is not from any other race, it's from themselves. Dagran II, when he comes of age, has the potential to lead the united dwarven race into a golden age, or completely cripple them for good in the fires of a horrendous civil war.

The dwarves and humans being friends is certainly a major part, and I personally am of the opinion that there should be some tension. The Bronzebeards are arrogant (They won Ironforge, after all), the Dark Irons are scheming and the Wildhammers are stubborn to a fault. All are flaws that could be used to cause some tension between them and the humans at some point, though not in MoP, because the Alliance is supposed to be coming together for this - Perhaps after.

I've had ideas of what the Council of Three Hammers High King trial could be, it could essentially amount to Dagran II being kidnapped by the Forsaken (Which would be the Horde scenario - Infiltrating Ironforge), they do this because they see Ironforge slowly recovering from its political mess, and when they do its full power will be brought to bear, most likely hurled across the Thandol Span straight into the Undercity's new empire. By kidnapping Dagran II they hope to completely throw the dwarves into disarray and get them to either surrender to the Horde separately or just not be able to assist the Alliance in any formidable capacity beyond what they already do.

Varian intervenes, though not directly, by getting SI:7 to find where the Forsaken are taking Dagran II, which turns out to be Dun Garok (Love that place, the Forsaken were unable to drive the dwarven spirits away), he then passes this information on to the Council of Three Hammers, and the Alliance players join them in heading to Dun Garok to liberate Dagran. Muradin and Falstad remain outside to fight off Forsaken forces coming to reinforce whilst the players and Moira delve into Dun Garok.

During stage 2, Muradin and Falstad could be forced back into Dun Garok by the arrival of Sylvanas or someone dangerous, whilst in Stage 3 or 4 you retrieve Dagran, it looks like the Council is going to be overwhelmed, which is when Varian comes in and pulls them out.

This gives the Council of Three Hammers solid, fist-pumping moments, whilst still making sure they are grateful to Varian.

On Moira - I firmly believe she should not be hit with the villain bat, and I think it's unfair how some people treat her, she has only ever done what she has done to protect her son, that's been her only motivation. In a way it's exactly what Varian does. I'd like to see this elaborated on at some point.

On Dagran II - It would be good if he formed an attachment to other members of the Council, and they all took a part in raising him. We'd get a Warrior-Mage faction leader out of it, too! Like Dagran I was, only better!

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 11-20-2012 at 06:39 AM..
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:23 AM
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It's also important to remember that Dwarves are very stoic and isolationist, and as such are far less willing to be as free with their troops as Stormwind has done. Not to mention the logistics of moving troops from the middle of a mountain to anywhere else in the world, while Stormwind by comparison has a rather prolific harbor, well-traveled land routes, and several forward bases sprinkled around the world.

Mobility and the will to act are just as important, if not more so, than the objective strength of each nation.

Personally I'm fine with the Dwarves being one of the hands of Stormwind, if only because they've never had much of a leading role in the Alliance.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:39 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Hmn. Not entirely true on all accounts.

The dwarves have significant expeditionary capabilitiy, as shown by Bael Modan, Dun Garok, the Ironforge Brigade camp in Silithus and the Ahn'qiraj opening event. I'm also going to add that the idea of them not having sufficient infrastructure in their own lands is farcical, they do have this infrastructure and it is well maintained, as evidenced by the fact said infrastructure is still working despite the more adverse conditions compared to human lands.

The dwarves in WoW are also not very isolationist at all, they've consistently been exploring the world, more than humans have.

Ironforge also has had a leading role in the Alliance - Magni and the dwarves held the Alliance together during the vanilla and TBC periods.

They're also an independent race with their own culture and own way of doing things, which is why I categorically object to them being a 'hand' of Stormwind.

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Old 11-20-2012, 07:50 AM
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Hmn. Not entirely true on all accounts.

The dwarves have significant expeditionary capabilitiy, as shown by Bael Modan, Dun Garok, the Ironforge Brigade camp in Silithus and the Ahn'qiraj opening event.

The dwarves in WoW are also not very isolationist at all, they've consistently been exploring the world, more than humans have.

Ironforge also has had a leading role in the Alliance - Magni and the dwarves held the Alliance together during the vanilla and TBC periods.
Bael Modan, Dun Garok, and even the Stormpike are scientific expeditions that are not politically sanctioned by Ironforge. They are merely there to study new archaeological finds, which is entirely within their own self interest. The camp in Silithus was there at the behest of the Alliance in response to the war effort.

Isolationism doesn't mean what I think you think it means. From Wikipedia:

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Isolationism is the policy or doctrine of isolating one's country from the affairs of other nations by declining to enter into alliances, foreign economic commitments, foreign trade, international agreements, etc., seeking to devote the entire efforts of one's country to its own advancement and remain at peace by avoiding foreign entanglements and responsibilities.
However it's probably more accurate to associate the dwarves with Non-Interventionism.

IIRC the Dwarves didn't even enter the Alliance until after the orcs attacked Dun Morogh, and I don't recall Magni being particularly influential during Anduin's "reign" in Vanilla and TBC. He was a friend and ally, and looking out for both, but a far cry from a true leader or unifier.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:00 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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No, they aren't.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Bael_Modan

"Bael Modan is heralded by some as the new home of the dwarves and gnomes on Kalimdor. Bael Modan (the red mountain in Dwarven) is the name the Ironforge dwarves have given to the settlement. With a population of 800, it is the largest Alliance stronghold in the Barrens."

The Titan ruins were found after it was established. (There's also Ironforge banners all over the place)

http://www.wowpedia.org/Dun_Garok

"Dun Garok was a dwarven fortress nestled into the southeastern hills of Hillsbrad Foothills. Until the Forsaken attacked with all their might. Lead by Captain Ironhill, the dwarves helped protect the humans of Hillsbrad as well as the Azurelode Mine."

Doesn't sound scientific to me. It was a military base designed specifically to INTERVENE and PROTECT human allies. (Also, Ironforge banners all over the place)

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=7261/th...ign-imperative

"We are fighting a brutal battle in the valleys of Alterac. The savage Frostwolf Clan challenges the might of the Stormpike! They must be exterminated in the name of King Magni Bronzebeard! The taking, culling, and turning of that land is a sovereign and territorial imperative to the kingdom of Ironforge."

The bolded bit is important. That is an intent to take land and advance interests.

All the above is also proof that they were not, and still aren't, isolationist. None of them are unofficial or unsanctioned bases. In one case it was a whole community dedicated to Ironforge on another continent.

The dwarves did not enter the Alliance until after the dwarves were attacked because the Alliance was not created until after Khaz Modan was attacked - There was no Alliance to join when the Kingdom of Khaz Modan was being invaded.

The only reason I say Magni held it together is because the majority of military actions taken by the Alliance during the vanilla period were headed up by dwarves, under Magni's orders. (Ahn'qiraj opening, Alterac Valley). This is more than Stormwind and Anduin did during this time.

And even if what you say would somehow be true, that is still no reason for an entirely separate race to be reduced to the 'hand' of a human Kingdom.

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 11-20-2012 at 08:10 AM..
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:13 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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We've been over this. Yea, logically, Ironforge should have been the Alliance's centre since the fall of Lordaeron, and Varian's sudden return to Stormwind (merely to start a new war) wouldn't have changed the tide either. But, unfortunately, the story is less about logical leaders among the nations, and more about revolving around orcs, humans and (somewhat less) elves & undead. Thus the dwarves are reduced to shorter humans who like ale... and have some funky accent... and like ale.

But if we are talking exclusively about the actual perspectives of a strong dwarven state, I'll say that a re-united high kingdom of Khaz Modan would certainly become the EK superpower. The combined strength of Ironforge and Shadowforge metalworks would produce arms beyond imagination of any generic Azerothian ruler. This will only happen, of course, if the succession crisis ends well for the country.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:29 AM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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It's the same reason that Night Elves have to constantly be bailed out by the Humans, and the reason that Tyrande is putting on her best Leeroy Jenkins impersonation.

They aren't Humans, so they aren't allowed to succeed or be important on their own. They have to have help from the Humans, or they're useless.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:52 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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It's not like humans were just dying off and twiddling their thumbs through out the whole franchise. Stormwind became the most dominant power in the Southern Kingdoms in the Eastern Kingdoms with the destruction of the Gurabashi Trolls and the crippling of the Dark Horde thanks to Troteman and Keeshan. It also colonized Northrend by personally financing the Valiance Expedition. It contains a major port in the Eastern Kingdoms, has the largest navy, constructs flying fortresses or gunships, and has claimed Northwatch Hold, Lion's Landing, and the Valiance Expedition Ports under its authority, all key ports for the Alliance and instrumental in maintaining dominance in the sea; against Horde, Alliance, or otherwise. And as far as I can tell, humans have always been the shocktroops of the Alliance. That means they're either superior militarily or just have superior numbers to fill the role. Stormwind is not as weak as many claim them to be.

As for the dwarves, they also suffered from war. In the comics, they were at war with the Dark Iron and almost lost Thandol Span. And in the Shattering, they also suffered from earthquakes and wrecked homes. They suffered no more worse for ware than the humans. If anything, the loss of human kingdoms wouldn't make dwarves superior as they haven't expanded any more than what they already had in WC2, but rather would just make them equal to humans.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:01 AM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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My question is, if they -aren't- as weak as most people think they are, and they can do all this stuff without the justification that "The Plot says they can"...

Then why are there still bandits, blackrock orcs, gnolls, and kobolds in Elwynn?

Why is there basically a peasant uprising in Westfall, and no troops from Stormwind to help out?

Why is Duskwood in the state that it is? Why has it never seen reinforcements?

Why is Redridge basically under the control of the orcs except for Lakeshire?

HOW are they doing all that stuff, while still failing horribly to protect or consolidate the land they have back home, if it's not for the simple reason the plot says they must, and the Humans are the 'dominant' race of the alliance, not because they deserve it, but because the writers say they are, with no other justification for it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:03 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I should mention, for those who didn't play vanilla, that Ironforge was considered the capitol of the Alliance.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:04 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It's the same reason that Night Elves have to constantly be bailed out by the Humans, and the reason that Tyrande is putting on her best Leeroy Jenkins impersonation.

They aren't Stormwind Humans, so they aren't allowed to succeed or be important on their own. They have to have help from the Stormwind Humans, or they're useless.
Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if it was just that time of month for her and she became more irrational/angry because of that combined with the Horde invading her capital. Because trying to find logic with Tyrande Jenkins is a futile exercise.

But fixed that second part since unless you are a Stormwind human, then you don't matter much. The Gilnean/Stromgard humans have all disappeared from the plot.

But back to Ironforge. I really think that that the political crisis, which was an awesome storyline that went nowhere because (insert your thing here), that it logically for Blizzard works for the storyline that Stormwind is the center of the Alliance. Despite IF being the strongest of the Alliance after WC3. They were never successfully invaded by the Old Horde, the New Horde hasn't been much of a threat and politically, until Cata, they were very stable.

1) Ironforge owes it's government to Anduin/Varian.
2) As long as it's divided into three parts (and the Wildhammers are still trying to figure out why they get roped into this) then it's not stable and not going to present much of a "threat" to Stormwind's power.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:08 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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My question is, if they -aren't- as weak as most people think they are, and they can do all this stuff without the justification that "The Plot says they can"...

Then why are there still bandits, blackrock orcs, gnolls, and kobolds in Elwynn?

Why is there basically a peasant uprising in Westfall, and no troops from Stormwind to help out?

Why is Duskwood in the state that it is? Why has it never seen reinforcements?

Why is Redridge basically under the control of the orcs except for Lakeshire?

HOW are they doing all that stuff, while still failing horribly to protect or consolidate the land they have back home, if it's not for the simple reason the plot says they must, and the Humans are the 'dominant' race of the alliance, not because they deserve it, but because the writers say they are, with no other justification for it.
Failing horribly? How so? At the end of the quest chains, all those threats are dealt with. If all those threats were dealt with, is it then that the local guards, or rag tag militia, and the deputized Player character were enough to permanently end those threats? These threats occurred during the Cataclysm. Stormwind's natural barriers like the Elwynn mountains were cracked because of the natural upheavals and for a brief instance they were caught with their pants down. But in the end, Stormwind rallied, and fought them back and crippled their means for war. Mission accomplished I say. After that, Stormwind returned to its secured state. They're not under constant attack as you make it seem. They didn't even lose any ground. All their "defeats" were from the Defias and it was a Pyrrhic victory.

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I should mention, for those who didn't play vanilla, that Ironforge was considered the capitol of the Alliance.
By the fanbase or by canon sources?
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:08 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I should mention, for those who didn't play vanilla, that Ironforge was considered the capitol of the Alliance.
That was by the players only, no? Because of the handy auction, or something?
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:25 AM
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That was by the players only, no? Because of the handy auction, or something?
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By the fanbase or by canon sources?
A bit of both.

Ironforge during Vanilla was the only Alliance faction with a clear leader and military power at their disposal. The gnomes had their high tinker, but Gnomeregan had happened, Malfurion was lost in the emerald dream while Tyrande and Staghelm clashed with each other, and Stormwind was kingless, with Onyxia scheming to destroy it from within.

The dwarfs were the only solid faction during Vanilla.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:44 AM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Failing horribly? How so? At the end of the quest chains, all those threats are dealt with. If all those threats were dealt with, is it then that the local guards, or rag tag militia, and the deputized Player character were enough to permanently end those threats? These threats occurred during the Cataclysm. Stormwind's natural barriers like the Elwynn mountains were cracked because of the natural upheavals and for a brief instance they were caught with their pants down. But in the end, Stormwind rallied, and fought them back and crippled their means for war. Mission accomplished I say. After that, Stormwind returned to its secured state. They're not under constant attack as you make it seem. They didn't even lose any ground. All their "defeats" were from the Defias and it was a Pyrrhic victory.
The only reason any of those threats have been dealt with can be chalked up to 'adventurers' and Stormwind didn't have anything to do with it other than Varian giving you a quest to go to Redridge to help out.

The armies of Stormwind, the people of Stormwind, the Kingdom of Stormwind, had nothing to do with saving their own lands and people other than sending a few random adventurers to the area to see what could be done.

And either you got lucky and dealt with the problem, or the enemies in charge of it basically fell on their own swords one way or another.

Up until the adventurers stepped in, Stormwind was basically losing on all fronts.

They are not the power that the writers would want you to believe. By all rights, they shouldn't have had the manpower for what happened in Wrath, much less Cataclysm and what's coming in MoP.

From what we know of Stormwind previously, the numbers and the power just don't add up.

They have plot armor/strength. There's really no other explanation for it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:04 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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To be fair though, that's the same with dwarves. The exception being the Frostmane Front.

But I do agree Stormwind has been arbitrarily forced into the position it is now because the developers want to roll back to Warcraft: Orcs & Humans for some inane reason.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:04 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slywyn View Post
The only reason any of those threats have been dealt with can be chalked up to 'adventurers' and Stormwind didn't have anything to do with it other than Varian giving you a quest to go to Redridge to help out.
ect. ect.
Slywyn, everybody owes their faction's victories to a few random adventurers.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:06 AM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
To be fair though, that's the same with dwarves. The exception being the Frostmane Front.

But I do agree Stormwind has been arbitrarily forced into the position it is now because the developers want to roll back to Warcraft: Orcs & Humans for some inane reason.
The problem with the Dwarves isn't strength appearing out of the air, though.

The problem with the Dwarves is politics and their own racial tendencies keeping them from doing stuff.

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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Slywyn, everybody owes their faction's victories to a few random adventurers.
Not to the extent that Stormwind does.

Look at Ashenvale and Darkshore. Those places were well on their way to being handled, if not straight won, by the forces already in place. The adventurers showed up to help out. They didn't carry the day.

Same with Wetlands and Dun Morough(I don't know if the Gnome side is the same, but for the Dwarves) for the most part they had things under control.

It's the same for the Orcs. The player characters didn't completely overshadow everything their faction had done. They helped out, they complimented what was already there.

For Stormwind's stuff, without the player character they would have lost.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:14 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Welcome new guy. I am a bit wary as your name coincides with an Alliance fanzy from the EU Story Forums I recall, still innocent until proven guilty applies.

As for the matter at hand, I won't go into much detail but lets just say that I too feel that Ironforge should be the de facto powercenter of the Alliance, they should have the numbers, the army and the wealth needed to put all other Alliance members to shame if we follow any internal logic of the warcraft universe. Not to mention that in my humble opinion that would make the Alliance far more interesting then the one we have today.

That is all.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:16 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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The guy on the EU story forums is me. Curious as to why this would make me guilty though, if it's the comments I think you're referring to, they're made largely in jest, and because the reaction of the opposing side amuses me.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:20 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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Originally Posted by Slywyn View Post
Not to the extent that Stormwind does.

Look at Ashenvale and Darkshore. Those places were well on their way to being handled, if not straight won, by the forces already in place. The adventurers showed up to help out. They didn't carry the day.

Same with Wetlands and Dun Morough(I don't know if the Gnome side is the same, but for the Dwarves) for the most part they had things under control.

It's the same for the Orcs. The player characters didn't completely overshadow everything their faction had done. They helped out, they complimented what was already there.

For Stormwind's stuff, without the player character they would have lost.
Oh what a load of baloney. Goldshire had Stormwind Guards and the Royal Guard protecting it's borders. They handled the situation pretty well in Elwynn. Had the player not came, it would still have been fine due to its proximity to the capital. Westfall had Stormwind reinforcements as soon as Varian heard that the Defias reformed and they cornered them into the Deadmines. Duskwood was in no immediate threat, they just needed a few extra eyes on patrol. In fact, I'm pretty sure Darkshire's danger came from the player himself as he's the one who messed up and summoned the Necromancer Ambercombie or whatever his name is. The only place that was in any real danger was Redridge which was the major warzone between the Dark Horde and it turned out ok. Why? Because Stormwind military Bravo Company handled it. Worse came to worse, Varian is a shrewd and cunning leader. Even with out the player, Varian would just ride over there with a gang of knights and handle it himself.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:40 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Whilst I agree with you that the adventurers are involved in all victories their faction and race experiences, I will offer a counter point in the form of this: Needing to use the Royal Guard to secure territory could suggest the military is otherwise in fairly dire straights, no?

Any faction leader could deal with problems in their lands - Tyrande could oversee the destruction of Shatterspear Village, Muradin could oversee the defense of Kharanos, Falstad for the IF Airport and Moira could have arrested the traitor herself, but this being an MMO the players need stuff to do.
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