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Old 03-15-2018, 08:59 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Default The ReMix: How we'd have developed World of Warcraft

Greetings! I'm so finally making this thread ao Crow can stop being inpatient for it.

I propose a project for anyone interested in joining, to remake World of Warcraft as we'd have it be, and perhaps, how it should have been. We'll write a story for a post-Warcraft III world, with the full powers of retcon, hindsight and imagination. I'd only ask we keep it relative realistic, not going too overboard on what may have been.

So in summary: developing a post Warcraft III, WoW keeping in mind two aspects: the game itself, and, perhaps more importantly, the story.

Perhaps, after we've decided to on a story and a WoW game to accompany it, we can forge some sort of boardgame or rpg set in this alternate way Warcraft.

To which I say: let the games begin!
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:02 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I'll kick this off by starting two discussions that I think are critical for this project, one for the game, and one for the story.

Game: how should factions work? Two as we have? Three, perhaps four? Or rather none? I personally think we need at least two factions, since seeing orcs walking around Stormwind would simply be a disgrace.

Story: what should we do about the Great Eredar Retcon? I personally do not mind the canon draenei/eredar lore, but it might be wiser to keep that lore as it was in Warcraft III, or perhaps mix the two for an optimal result.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:25 AM
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I'll kick this off by starting two discussions that I think are critical for this project, one for the game, and one for the story.

Game: how should factions work? Two as we have? Three, perhaps four? Or rather none? I personally think we need at least two factions, since seeing orcs walking around Stormwind would simply be a disgrace.

Story: what should we do about the Great Eredar Retcon? I personally do not mind the canon draenei/eredar lore, but it might be wiser to keep that lore as it was in Warcraft III, or perhaps mix the two for an optimal result.
GAME: Factions should be, IMHO, more similar to NATO than to the EU. What I mean by this is, a loose military alliance, and not a supranational body that moves as a block and can issue rulings to all it's member states willy-nilly.

So, I'd be okay with keeping just the Alliance and the Horde, at least as initially, with the configurations they had on Classic (Human, Dwarves, Gnomes and Night Elves for the Alliance and Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and Forsaken for the Horde), but put less emphasis on the overall millitary alliance and more on the individual nations, and the intra-factional conflicts.

For example, the Alliance. I think it should have a strong "core", made out of Stormwind and Ironforge. This is the heart of the Alliance, and they are not going to buckle from their position. Comparatively, they are the US and the UK. Then we have Gnomeregan... It's not as fervent about the "Alliance" ideal as the Humans and Dwarves are, but they a) have a certain kinship to one of the "core" members, namely the Dwarves, and b) are in dire straits and need help, so they stick together for now. They may chafe under the demands of the bigger nations, and be less enthused about opposing the Horde on the global sphere, but don't seriously think about leaving the faction. On the other extreme, we have the Night Elves. They are far away from the main power center of the Alliance. Nominally, they are part of the block, but they have a very different culture, different ideals, different priorities, and don't quite fit with the rest. They are certainly fond of their allies, but not so much as to throw their lot with them regardless of their own plans. To keep the NATO analogy, they would be like those Near East of African countries that the US/UK wanted to keep on their orbit of influence, but were always in danger of slipping away to the Warsaw Pact.

Now, Classic WoW had three main conflicts: Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin and Alterac Valley. I think these could be a great way to present the intra-faction conflict and the cultural divide between the nations of the same factions. For example, the Warsong Gulch. A part of the Horde is attacking the Night Elves' sacred ground. They start to defend themselves, but since the frontline is close to the Horde's center of power, they are a bit in over their head. Not seriously, but enough they call of their allies from the other side of the world. The Eastern Kingdoms, though, have their own battlegrounds to take care of, and they are wary of sending armies through an entire ocean to die far away from home defending woods that are meaningless to them. Besides, the Horde just wants wood. Let they have it, like a fourth of Ashenvale, and sue for peace. That should be enough. Darnassus interprets that their "allies" care nothing for them and their values, and wonder if they should just fall away from the whole thing. This sets off the alarms in Theramore, who would be left alone as the only Alliance presence in Theramore and easy pickings in the case Thrall stepped down from the Warchief position and the next Guy in Charge didn't have a sentimental attachment to Jaina. They approach Stormwind and tell them how losing the Night Elves as allies would be a terrible blow to the Alliance, especially if the nature-loving Tauren stepped in and convinced them that the Horde would be open for negotiations, say, their druids provide some wood for Dutorar in exchange for leaving Ashenvale alone. Stormwind sees the point and tries to convince Ironforge, which was from the beginning the most recalcitrant part to help the Nelves. They cede the point, grumbling, but makes a point that the rest of the Alliance owes them one, which they'll eventually collect in Alterac Valley...

I have an idea for the Eredar thing too, but that'll have to wait for later. I already wrote far too much as it is.
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:00 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
I'll kick this off by starting two discussions that I think are critical for this project, one for the game, and one for the story.

Game: how should factions work? Two as we have? Three, perhaps four? Or rather none? I personally think we need at least two factions, since seeing orcs walking around Stormwind would simply be a disgrace.

Story: what should we do about the Great Eredar Retcon? I personally do not mind the canon draenei/eredar lore, but it might be wiser to keep that lore as it was in Warcraft III, or perhaps mix the two for an optimal result.
Getting into the game and the questions on the factions, it IS difficult to simply lift the four faction structure from Warcraft III. Once III happens, you have war relationships that should not take place or that don't make sense any more, including some that made it into World of Warcraft.

That said, I would have two core factions and two unaffiliated groups.

The two core factions are the classic Alliance and Horde. The Alliance is made up of Humans, Gnomes, Dwarves, and High Elves. The Horde is made up of Orcs, Goblins, Tauren, and Trolls, with each of those races respectively filling certain roles within their faction. Respectively: the all-rounder, the specialist, the tank, and the mystical/magical.

That gets us to the unaffiliated groups

Unaffiliated groups pursue their own interests and are open to helping or being helped by either faction. They can join the game, but like the Pandaren, they have a choice in deciding who to help. Also like the Pandaren, this choice is permanent for individual players. We just need a couple of lore tweaks first.

Night Elves/Draenei:

During the Old Hatreds Warcraft III campaign, Thrall decides to consult the Night Elves for help as well and is faced with a choice of reining in rogue elements of the Warsong Clan or letting them spoil relations between his new Horde and his recent allies at Hyjal forever - only this time it's bad enough that the Night Elves are considering joining Daelin Proudmoore. Some groups still do, still wanting to avenge Cenarius, but when Thrall decides to side with the Night Elves against the Warsong, many others see this as a genuine desire for peace, and a condemnation of Grom. This lights off a schism in society and prevents them from joining the Alliance or the Horde, though after the Proudmoore incident, they are still receptive to either side's help. Their interests are mostly invested in containing or eliminating legion influence in Azeroth, and when the Draenei turn up (in the same way as they had in WoW - that's my position on the retcon), this results in a number of crusades.

The Night Elves in particular though have an ambition lurking under the surface. They deeply distrust the intentions of these new outlanders and are racing to harden themselves against potential invasion - lots of military buildup and innovation. They're certainly no one faction's enemy right now, but they're also not anyone's friend.

Forsaken/Blood Elves:

Killing Garithos was a requirement for Sylvanas to take the Undercity. That doesn't change. What does change is how she handles the aftermath. She immediately manufactures a story about a racial pogrom, partially informed by actual information she learns about the fate of the Blood Elves, and uses that to justify the action. She also gets a persistent message out - particularly to the Alliance and the Argent Crusade, that the Forsaken are free, and that they are the last, best bulwark to the Scourge. The Scarlet Crusade doesn't listen, and the Argent Crusade does. The Blood Elves come in under Sylvanas's wing (and direct rule). The core factions themselves certainly aren't going to try and kick off a war with Sylvanas while they aim to overcome one another - so they are able to grudgingly accept help from the Forsaken in exchange for occasional work in defeating the Scourge.

Also like their Night Elven counterparts, motives lurk under the surface. Forsaken experiments on prisoners are much more hidden, but they're still going on, as is plague research. Why do they need this plague? Only Sylvanas knows really, but everyone with a pulse probably knows that Sylvanas didn't kill Garithos just to strike a blow for non-humans, or even just to seize Capitol City.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:43 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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This two factions + two outliers is a quite interesting idea!

But, hear me, what if the bass game doesn't even have the Eastern Kingdoms at all? It could be set on a larger Kalimdor, with a "conquest of Kalimdor" and "fallout from the Third War" theme here, while hearing only tales about what's going on in the Eastern Kingdoms, which could be divided in two, for two expansions!

So say the Alliance could have humans starting in Theramore, dwarves starting in Bael Modan, and perhaps night elves in Nighthaven, while the Horde has orcs in Orgrimmar, trolls in Darkspear Hold, and tauren in Thunder Bluff.

Then in the first expansion, which is Lordaeron, the Alliance get blood elves from Silvermoon and the Horde get forest trolls from Zul'Aman.

Just as an example.
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:40 PM
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In my opinion, no strong factions and every player can gain reputation with any city faction they choose, although they naturally start with some factions friendlier than others. For example, orcs start hated by Stormwind and Darnassus, but humans are unfriendly to Darnassus as well. Night elves are generally unfriendly or hostile to everyone but tauren, to whom they are neutral. Forsaken are literally unfriendly or hostile to everyone, to establish their outcast status.

This also means that expansions don't have to include pairs of races every time, so we don't have to think up strange races out of nowhere just so the other faction can get one. That means tBC can bring just blood elves. Then, we can get goblins, and ogres somewhere down the line. And maybe furbolgs, since that changes so much the line of expansions we know is probably gone forever.
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Old 03-18-2018, 03:26 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I think an orc would always be hated with Stormwind. Ever seeing a player human walking through Orgrimmar is just no.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:57 PM
Al'Akir Al'Akir is offline

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Originally Posted by Xarthat View Post
In my opinion, no strong factions and every player can gain reputation with any city faction they choose, although they naturally start with some factions friendlier than others. For example, orcs start hated by Stormwind and Darnassus, but humans are unfriendly to Darnassus as well. Night elves are generally unfriendly or hostile to everyone but tauren, to whom they are neutral. Forsaken are literally unfriendly or hostile to everyone, to establish their outcast status.

This also means that expansions don't have to include pairs of races every time, so we don't have to think up strange races out of nowhere just so the other faction can get one. That means tBC can bring just blood elves. Then, we can get goblins, and ogres somewhere down the line. And maybe furbolgs, since that changes so much the line of expansions we know is probably gone forever.
Three thumbs up!

Also, this is how I always wanted WoW to originally be, and it looks like what they had in mind back in 2003/2004
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:15 AM
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Three factions.
---
Alliance: Stormwind, Ironforge, Gnomereggan
Exclusive class: Paladin
Cities: Stormwind, Ironforge, Gnomereggan. Kalimdor hub: Theramore

Forsaken, Scarlet Crusade and the Scourge are fighting at the plaguelands.The alliance is fighting both Forsaken and Scourge trying to recover and restore the lost lands, but they are helping the Scarlet Crusade that is being directed by a Dreadlord. This will end up bringing an army of demons to the Eastern Plaguelands. Undercity is now an undead instance.
The Horde has landed in Stranglethorn and the Swamp of Sorrows, and is trying to push to Stormwind.
The Cenarion Circle has brought an army to the Blasted Lands and is trying to heal the land at the Blasted Lands and Deadwind Pass. Stormwind sees it as a menace to Nethergarde and the frontiers of Stormwind.
The Dark Horde is still a menace to Stormwind, and is strong at the Burning Steppes and the Blackrock Mountain. The Dragonmaw are also part of the Dark Horde and have a stronger detachment in the Wetlands, where they are attacking the dwarf towns of Menethil Harbor, Dun Modr and Dun Algaz, this last already invaded.
The alliance has presence in Kalimdor, where they try to resist the attacks on Theramore.
---

Horde: Orgrimmar, Stonemaul, Darkspear
Exclusive class: Shaman
Cities: Orgrimmar, Echo Isles, Stonemaul city in Dustwallow. Azeroth hub: Zul'Gurub

Echo Isles and Dustwallow Marsh are full starting zones.
The Horde is fighting the Alliance at Theramore in Dustwallow Marsh and Durotar, afraid of them becoming stronger.
The war against the Cenarion Circle continues in Ashenvale, Stonetalon and Azshara in a resource seeking expansion. The agression against the nature has made the Tauren angry and they have left the Horde. There is war now for the control of Southern Barrens between Theramore, the Tauren and the Horde.
The Gurubashi has allied to the Horde thanks to a peace agreement with the Darkspear and Zul'Gurub is now an Horde city. They are using the city to control Stormwind and to try to attack the false Horde, that hides in Blackrock Mountain. Also, the Cenarion Circle in Blasted Lands is a threat to them.
---

Cenarion Circle: Night Elf, Mulgore Tauren, Children of Cenarius
Exclusive class: Druid
Cities: Nordrassil, Thunder Bluff, Moonglade. Azeroth hub: new druid city in the Blasted Lands.

The three wars have left Azeroth blasted. It is time to heal the land. The agressions against nature have made the Tauren to join the Cenarion Circle and try to recover their druidic roots.
The CC is fighting a hard war trying to defend its frontier in Stonetalon, Ashenvale, Azshara and Mulgore. Strong problems against the Grimtotem and the ogres in Feralas and 1k needles. They are also investigating what is happening with the silithid in southern Kalimdor.
They have moved an expedition and founded a hub in the Blasted Lands, where they are trying to heal the land, but they are being attacked from Stormwind and Zul'Gurub.
---

Forsaken as enemy faction, like the Scourge, fighting both the Scourge, the Alliance and the Scarlet Crusade.
---


On Burning crusade-> New Faction

Illidari: Blood Elf, Draenei, Naga
Exclusive class: Demon Hunter
Cities: Silvermoon, Shattrath, Coilfang Reservoir. Capital: Black Temple. Kalimdor hub: Azuremist Isles
Outland->Alliance hub: Honor Hold (Hellfire); Horde hub: Garadar (Nagrand); Cenarion hub: Cenarion Thicket (Terokkar)
The Burning Legion is planning a new attack on Azeroth. Lead by Magtheridon and Kazzak at the orders of Kil'Jaeden, The Dark Portal has been opened. The heroes of Azeroth enter the portal to counter-attack the demons and they find remnants of the second war trying to survive, and also the Illidari fighting against them while lead by Illidan Stormrage.
Kael'thas goes back to Azeroth and joins the blood elves to the Illidari. Lead by their prince, the Blood Elves try to defend their lands from both the Forest Trolls, the Forsaken and the Scourge, while trying to help their comrades who have settled in the outlands. The Tempest Keep has been invaded by demons and a bunch of Draenei have attacked and saved the Exodar, that has landed near Kalimdor.
---

Wrath of the Lich King-> New Faction
Scourge: Undead Human, Ymirjar, Nerubian
Cities: Stratholme, Ymirheim, Azjol Nerub. Capital: Icecrown Citadel. Kalimdor hub: Undead city with harbor in Winterspring.
Northrend -> Alliance hub: Valgarde; Horde hub: Gundrak; Cenarion hub: Grizzlemaw; Illidari hub: Shandaral
Arthas has awakened and threats with an invasion of plague and death around the world. From the plaguelands and Winterspring hordes of undead spread around the continents. The factions have sent expeditions to Northrend to end the Lich King's menace.

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Old 03-30-2018, 10:37 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I'll do whatever as long as the Alliance aren't acting like rejects from DC comic books (see not inflicting terror on the Horde back in MoP) and/or the Horde really acts like the noble savages they are claimed to be.
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Old 03-31-2018, 10:18 AM
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I always though the original Warcraft RPG setup would have been awesome for WoW.

Only continent available at 1.0 would be Kalimdor, which would be 50% larger or so.

Alliance:
Races: Humans, high elves, dwarves
Main Capital: Theramore City
Secondary cities: Bael Modan, ??? (some new high elven town).

Horde:
Races: Orcs, Trolls, Tauren
Main Capital: Orgrimmar
Secondary Cities: Echo Isles (much larger), Thunder Bluff

Neutral:
Races (Playable, can ally with any faction): Night elves, goblins
Cities: Nighthaven (northern neutral town), Gadgetzan (southern neutral town
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:10 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I'm actually quite tending towards Deicide's view of a Kalimdor-only Vanilla game. Having two factions plus a set of neutral races seems interesting.

Do you not think though that this might hamper any possibility of war between these races and the Horde or Alliance?

Alliance: Humans (Theramore), Dwarves (Bael Modan), High Elves (Quel'Estar, Highpeak, a new base on Stonetalon Peak).

Horde: Orcs (Orgrimmar), Tauren (Thunder Bluff), Darkspear Trolls (Darkspear Hold).

Neutral: Night Elves (Nighthaven), Goblins (Gadgetzan).

Vanilla WoW had 20 zones in the EK and 16 in Kalimdor.

Our version could start with ~30 in Kalimdor.

TBC had 11 new zones at launch, so we could have that many as an expansion in Lordaeron for example, and then that many again Azeroth as two subsequent expansions or so.

This first Lordaeron expansion could have the addition of Forest Trolls (Zul'Aman) for the Horde, Blood Elves (Silvermoon) for the Alliance, and perhaps the Forsaken as a neutral race?
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Old 04-02-2018, 12:46 PM
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Do you not think though that this might hamper any possibility of war between these races and the Horde or Alliance?
More or less.

Goblins would be friendly to both factions, while Night elves would be suspicious of both but willing to work together. Player characters would be mercenaries that align with either faction, while the areas controlled by the neutral races would be quest areas for all factions.

In essence, both Alliance and Horde would fear intruding night elf territory without paying respect to them, for fear of the elves joining the other faction.

This would preserve the feeling of the night elves as a sovereign faction from Warcraft 3, while still allowing players to have them as characters.

Sure, there would be no burning of Teldrassil (hell, there would be no Teldrassil), but night elf lore would keep coming, just as a neutral faction, rather than an Alliance one (and maybe then they'd be treated better by the devs, and it would make more sense for the Cenarion Circle to include both Alliance and Horde members).

Quote:
TBC had 11 new zones at launch, so we could have that many as an expansion in Lordaeron for example, and then that many again Azeroth as two subsequent expansions or so.

This first Lordaeron expansion could have the addition of Forest Trolls (Zul'Aman) for the Horde, Blood Elves (Silvermoon) for the Alliance, and perhaps the Forsaken as a neutral race?
Lordaeron could be a separate expansion from Khaz Modan/Stormwind.

I don't know about new races. Forsaken as neutral race could work very well, thought. Possible expansion races would include forest trolls, ogres, gnomes, draenei, worgen and so on.

Maybe a Lordaeron expansion adds Worgen/Forest Trolls + Forsaken, while a southern Eastern Kingdoms expansion adds Gnomes/Ogres (+ ???)?
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:49 PM
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I have to say, I've always found all those concepts making Kalimdor the only continent a bit...strange? Mostly because Blizzard never even planned something like that, on the contrary, the early concepts had Kalimdor far smaller than the East, hell about the size of Lordaeron. That's why the areas of Stormwind and Khaz Modan had been developed the first. I understand where it comes from, but I suppose I gravitate more towards the concepts that could have at least partially happened opposed those that couldn't have at all.



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Old 04-02-2018, 02:20 PM
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I have to say, I've always found all those concepts making Kalimdor the only continent a bit...strange? Mostly because Blizzard never even planned something like that, on the contrary, the early concepts had Kalimdor far smaller than the East, hell about the size of Lordaeron. That's why the areas of Stormwind and Khaz Modan had been developed the first. I understand where it comes from, but I suppose I gravitate more towards the concepts that could have at least partially happened opposed those that couldn't have at all.
I think Kalimdor works as the default continent because it's mostly wilderness. Developing the continent would be a good step before we'd go to the more urban-ish areas and supposedly huge cities of Eastern Kingdoms.

A vanilla WoW with only Kalimdor would feel like exploring untamed land. Back then, both Alliance and Horde knew almost nothing of that strange new continent. Kalimdor could have been made way more interesting, with new areas that never came to be.

Once we moved to expansion sets, Blizzard could use all the things learned from developing Kalimdor to create a better experience in places like Lordaeron, Alterac, Stromgarde and so on. In the real world, these vanilla-era zones are mostly empty and devoid of the signs of civilization (or ruins of civilizations) that they should have.

In the end, with multiple expansions devoted to those areas, they would probably feel like the original intent, with Eastern Kingoms being way larger than Kalimdor.
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:28 PM
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I have to say, I've always found all those concepts making Kalimdor the only continent a bit...strange? Mostly because Blizzard never even planned something like that, on the contrary, the early concepts had Kalimdor far smaller than the East, hell about the size of Lordaeron. That's why the areas of Stormwind and Khaz Modan had been developed the first. I understand where it comes from, but I suppose I gravitate more towards the concepts that could have at least partially happened opposed those that couldn't have at all.
I don't like the idea of "Kalimdor-only" either, but I've always understood it as coming from the assumption that the entirety of the Eastern Kingdoms had fallen to the Scourge and become a blighted wasteland.

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Old 04-02-2018, 05:27 PM
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I don't like the idea of "Kalimdor-only" either, but I've always understood it as coming from the assumption that the entirety of the Eastern Kingdoms had fallen to the Scourge and become a blighted wasteland.
I never saw as such. Even back in the Warcraft RPG (centered in Kalimdor), it was clear that only the north suffered from the Scourge/Legion. Also, TFT had part of the campaign set in Lordaeron.

To me, the idea is that we start stranded in Kalimdor, much like the Theramore humans and the Orcish Horde, and we have no idea of what's left home. We first stablish ourselves in this new place, then later travel back home to find out how it's going. Having expansions set there would help give that sense of coming back home and being surprised by what we find.
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:01 PM
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Varimathas did say Garithos' army was the last pocket of human resistance (in Lordaeron at least). Which should rule out the Scarlet Crusade being both formed in Lordaeron and active around the same time as Garithos Corps. Along with Archimonde gloating over how he torched the nations of Jaina's countrymen, the enemy units in Cry of the Warsong being from noted nations (Gilneas Brigade for one), and Kael'thas saying his Blood Elves are the last of Quel'thalas. It's not a stretch to say that the damage at this time would have been a bit deeper than what we actually got from Vanilla onward (see all the Paladins and High Elves coming out of the woodwork).

I mean, I don't recall from the pre-release info for WoW anything about a non-Zombie/Demon EK being much of a thing.

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Old 04-02-2018, 06:25 PM
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Varimathas did say Garithos' army was the last pocket of human resistance (in Lordaeron at least). Which should rule out the Argent Crusade being both formed in Lordaeron and active about the same time. Along with Archimonde gloating over how he torched the nations of Jaina's countrymen, the enemy units in Cry of the Warsong being from noted nations (Gilneas Brigade for one), and Kael'thas saying his Blood Elves are the last of Quel'thalas. It's not a stretch to say that the damage at this time would have been a bit deeper than what we actually got from Vanilla onward (see all the Paladins and High Elves coming out of the woodwork).

I mean, I don't recall from the pre-release info for WoW anything about a non-Zombie/Demon EK being much of a thing.
I always see such things as coming from unreliable narrators. Maybe Garithos was the last pocket, but once he was dominated by Detheroc or allied with Sylvanas some of his soldiers defected, for instance.

But, during Vanilla, is was actual lore that no elf had survived in Quel'thalas. High elves were the ones who lived away from home, blood elves were the ones that went to Outland with Kael. TBC retconned that.
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  #20  
Old 04-02-2018, 07:52 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I always see such things as coming from unreliable narrators. Maybe Garithos was the last pocket, but once he was dominated by Detheroc or allied with Sylvanas some of his soldiers defected, for instance.
That would fit with TFT, but it's officially not the case when it comes to the Scarlet Paladin's formation which has them not connected to Garithos.

Actually, looking back it's odd how little has been done with Garithos after WC3. I don't mean some Blood Elf crying about him or non-ingame bio. Something like the Scarlet Crusade's founders being some of his commanders would be a neat callback to him.

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But, during Vanilla, is was actual lore that no elf had survived in Quel'thalas. High elves were the ones who lived away from home, blood elves were the ones that went to Outland with Kael. TBC retconned that.
Oh, I know some retconning was afoot there. The Blood Elves were surely supposed to be a Creep race with Kael'thas as a raid boss (see the RPG). They shoved them into the Horde to raise its playerbase and had to do some awkward retconning (see the retcon that the BEs besides Kael's Krew totally didn't know they were using demon's magic) for it. Along with sticking in some dastardly NEs so that we don't notice that Kael parted with Tyrande's posse on good terms.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:28 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
That would fit with TFT, but it's officially not the case when it comes to the Scarlet Paladin's formation which has them not connected to Garithos.
Oh, I was talking about how things felt back then, when all we had was the Warcraft RPG and WoW was a few years in the future yet.

Quote:
Actually, looking back it's odd how little has been done with Garithos after WC3. I don't mean some Blood Elf crying about him or non-ingame bio. Something like the Scarlet Crusade's founders being some of his commanders would be a neat callback to him.
I feel the same. Garithos is a plot device to justify the blood elves leaving the Alliance. Once he did his role, he was quickly disposed off and forgotten.

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Oh, I know some retconning was afoot there. The Blood Elves were surely supposed to be a Creep race with Kael'thas as a raid boss (see the RPG). They shoved them into the Horde to raise its playerbase and had to do some awkward retconning (see the retcon that the BEs besides Kael's Krew totally didn't know they were using demon's magic) for it. Along with sticking in some dastardly NEs so that we don't notice that Kael parted with Tyrande's posse on good terms.
Yep!
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:49 PM
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Eh, Quel'thalas already ragequit the Alliance before WC3. I'm sure Garithos' little Human Supremacy act was supposed to be an excuse for the Blood Elves to be hostile to the Alliance and not just the Horde. Even then, Chronicle 3 says that it was Kael teaming up with Illidan that soured the Blood Elves' relations with the Alliance.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:16 AM
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I don't like the idea of "Kalimdor-only" either, but I've always understood it as coming from the assumption that the entirety of the Eastern Kingdoms had fallen to the Scourge and become a blighted wasteland.
The issue is, the very first previews for World of Warcraft already had featured showcases of Westfall, Elwynn, Duskwood, both as videos and screenshots. The Computer Gamer preview from 2001 (almost a year before Warcraft III) featured a screenshot of intact Ironforge, next to a map of the East and a mention of the kingdom of Azeroth (the old name for the kingdom of Stormwind).

https://imgur.com/a/0h3sF#0


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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
I mean, I don't recall from the pre-release info for WoW anything about a non-Zombie/Demon EK being much of a thing.
Ah, sure, all those previews and concepts featuring Khaz Modan and Azeroth with no large traces of undead and demons whatsoever are "not much a thing".

Hell, this concept map lists Stormwind and Dalaran as human capitals, with no mention of Theramore whatsoever.

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Old 04-03-2018, 01:33 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I was obviously including the rest of the EKs beyond Stormwind and Ironforge. And I wouldn't put much stock in Dalaran being on that map when it comes to the state of the EK since WC3 had it Scourged, then Death From Sand Castle, then the last known Kirin Tor ran off to Outland (Kael'thas).
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Old 04-03-2018, 02:01 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I was obviously including the rest of the EKs beyond Stormwind and Ironforge. And I wouldn't put much stock in Dalaran being on that map when it comes to the state of the EK since WC3 had it Scourged, then Death From Sand Castle, then the last known Kirin Tor ran off to Outland (Kael'thas).
You said the EK, not Lordaeron, so obviously my...

And "but muh Warcraft III" holds no relevance here, this map predates Warcraft III significantly.
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