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  #51  
Old 09-28-2013, 11:18 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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He did it because of me. Learn the facts!
Sorry, but you're not exactly doing anything to help the perception of that person as being unwise. Especially if they're unwise enough to listen to you.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #52  
Old 09-29-2013, 04:26 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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@Adorician, well pandaren wouldn't be Chinese influenced if they didn't have at least a few major starvations.
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  #53  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:44 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Let's get some things straight:

We can't really say the numbers for either side, that is, death suffered via GARROSH'S Horde by the Pandaren or the Alliance.

The war awoke the Sha, which honestly was fault of both Alliance and Horde.

We can't say whether or not the Shado-pan would have been able to deal with the Mogu. We do know for sure though that the Mantid and Yaungol threats were both spurred on by the coming of the Sha, so the Shado-pan would have had a single foe to defeat: The mogu. With the coming of Garrosh's Horde and Varian's Alliance, the Shado-pan suddenly had way more enemies.

Garrosh attacked a temple, a god, the most holy area perhaps in all of Azeroth, and dug up many artifacts better left gone.

Most importantly, Alliance and Horde are OPENLY AT WAR and have been for some time. Even prior to Garrosh taking power, Alliance had been aggressing upon Horde territory in Durotar and Barrens, maybe other areas to? It's been awhile since I've looked into vanilla lore.

On the other hand, the the Shado-pan and the majority of Pandaria (save for one tribe of hozen, one tribe of jinyu, and a few refugees in kun'lai) were NOT at war with Alliance or Horde. Garrosh did what he did against a neutral power, making his atrocities all the worse.

Maybe that is why Taran Zhu said his people suffered the most. Because they never did anything to warrant being attacked. Because they were caught in the middle. Because they didn't have a history with Garrosh. Because all this happened to Pandaria in a single year.

Can the Alliance really say they ever suffered as much to Garrosh's horde in a mere years time? Can the Alliance say with a straight face that a neutral power taking all this aggression suffered less than they, who have been back and forth fighting for years? Directly and indirectly, Pandaria has suffered heavily, and a great deal of the fault lies upon Garrosh.


And for the love of god, stop applying meta knowledge to Taran Zhu. People pull that crap way to often. Taran Zhu is not a player nor can he see the future.
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  #54  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:55 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I think the main thing is that Taran shouldn't have even been there. There was really no need for a pandaren to appear at the end of it and honestly I felt it took away from the cinematic just like he took away from the trailer.
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  #55  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:57 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Maybe that is why Taran Zhu said his people suffered the most. Because they never did anything to warrant being attacked.
Just like the Alliance!

What makes attacking a neutral faction worse than attacking the Alliance when neither the neutrals nor the Alliance did anything to provoke it? Both the Pandaren and the Alliance were subjected to unprovoked Horde aggression. This is a double-standard that I even see Alliance fans falling for. What makes the Alliance more "attack-able" than the Pandaren?
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  #56  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:00 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
I think the main thing is that Taran shouldn't have even been there. There was really no need for a pandaren to appear at the end of it and honestly I felt it took away from the cinematic just like he took away from the trailer.
I would have preffered Aysa and Ji.

Its Mists of Pandaria. If a Pandaren wasn't present at the end that would have been insulting. Hell, people who enjoy Pandaren are already aware that they're pretty much getting nothing ever again ever after all this (unless Shado-pan move beyond Pandaria, since there are no more threats. I'd be cool with that). At least let we Pandaren players have some kind of bone.

I mean hell, we got jack crap for racial themed pve and pvp tier through the whole expansion. The least we can get is a shot in the end cinematic.

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Just like the Alliance!

What makes attacking a neutral faction worse than attacking the Alliance when neither the neutrals nor the Alliance did anything to provoke it? Both the Pandaren and the Alliance were subjected to unprovoked Horde aggression. This is a double-standard that I even see Alliance fans falling for. What makes the Alliance more "attack-able" than the Pandaren?
I know that Alliance never stopped aggressing against the Orcs in Durotar, it's mentioned in Garrosh's leader story that the attacks have been happening from vanilla on. That was unprovoked.

Who was the first one to attack in Barrens?

Alliance constantly refused any trade agreements, instead letting the Orcs starve (despite their hand in the third war).

This one I'm unsure of, but who started aggression as far as Forsaken X Alliance goes?

There are other little grey areas too. Like who started the fighting in outland? One second the two sides are co-operating at the portal, next moment they're all out fighting each other in every zone.

Hostilities have never stopped from vanilla wow on. They just became way more obvious in Cata. And neither side moved to compromise. Taran Zhu alone did more than Alliance had done in years by allowing the Horde one season to leave (sure, this was a mistake on his part, but he was more willing than Alliance to compromise and listen despite all that had been done to his people in so little a time).
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  #57  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:10 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
I would have preffered Aysa and Ji.

Its Mists of Pandaria. If a Pandaren wasn't present at the end that would have been insulting. Hell, people who enjoy Pandaren are already aware that they're pretty much getting nothing ever again ever after all this (unless Shado-pan move beyond Pandaria, since there are no more threats. I'd be cool with that). At least let we Pandaren players have some kind of bone.

I mean hell, we got jack crap for racial themed pve and pvp tier through the whole expansion. The least we can get is a shot in the end cinematic.



I know that Alliance never stopped aggressing against the Orcs in Durotar, it's mentioned in Garrosh's leader story that the attacks have been happening from vanilla on. That was unprovoked.

Who was the first one to attack in Barrens?

Alliance constantly refused any trade agreements, instead letting the Orcs starve (despite their hand in the third war).

This one I'm unsure of, but who started aggression as far as Forsaken X Alliance goes?

There are other little grey areas too. Like who started the fighting in outland? One second the two sides are co-operating at the portal, next moment they're all out fighting each other in every zone.

Hostilities have never stopped from vanilla wow on. They just became way more obvious in Cata. And neither side moved to compromise. Taran Zhu alone did more than Alliance had done in years by allowing the Horde one season to leave (sure, this was a mistake on his part, but he was more willing than Alliance to compromise and listen despite all that had been done to his people in so little a time).
I thought almost every tier was great for pandaren considering the asian theme in just about everything.
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  #58  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:12 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
I thought almost every tier was great for pandaren considering the asian theme in just about everything.
Most of the time the theme feels rather neutral (like the first warrior pvp tier, that blizz apparently believes is a troll theme), or is very obviously not Pandaren but another race (like the second warrior pve tier).

But that's another topic. I've been disappointed as hell with the armor and weapons this expansion. There is seldom a theme, and usually when there is, it's sure as hell not Pandaren.
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  #59  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:13 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
I would have preffered Aysa and Ji.

Its Mists of Pandaria. If a Pandaren wasn't present at the end that would have been insulting. Hell, people who enjoy Pandaren are already aware that they're pretty much getting nothing ever again ever after all this (unless Shado-pan move beyond Pandaria, since there are no more threats. I'd be cool with that). At least let we Pandaren players have some kind of bone.

I mean hell, we got jack crap for racial themed pve and pvp tier through the whole expansion. The least we can get is a shot in the end cinematic.



I know that Alliance never stopped aggressing against the Orcs in Durotar, it's mentioned in Garrosh's leader story that the attacks have been happening from vanilla on. That was unprovoked.

Who was the first one to attack in Barrens?

Alliance constantly refused any trade agreements, instead letting the Orcs starve (despite their hand in the third war).

This one I'm unsure of, but who started aggression as far as Forsaken X Alliance goes?

There are other little grey areas too. Like who started the fighting in outland? One second the two sides are co-operating at the portal, next moment they're all out fighting each other in every zone.

Hostilities have never stopped from vanilla wow on. They just became way more obvious in Cata. And neither side moved to compromise. Taran Zhu alone did more than Alliance had done in years by allowing the Horde one season to leave (sure, this was a mistake on his part, but he was more willing than Alliance to compromise and listen despite all that had been done to his people in so little a time).
Alliance and Horde hardly fought each other that much in every single Outland zone. Only ones I can think of are Hellfire and Nagrand, with the catapults and Halaa and such.

The whole PvP "capture bases" thing didn't seem to have much Lore to them either.

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  #60  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:15 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Alliance and Horde hardly fought each other that much in Outland. There was, like, one quest where you were to bomb the other side's catapults for some arbitrary reason and then another quest where Blood Elves were antagonizing Draenei a tad but other than that there wasn't much.

The whole PvP "capture bases" thing didn't seem to have much Lore to them either.
They were fighting each other regardless from the starting gate, right there in hellfire peninsula. It's not how much fighting that was going on that matters (especially since we can't really tell due to game restraints) but more so that it was happening in the first place when there were much bigger fish to fry. They were allied for all of a moment and then fell right apart into fighting each other once more.
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  #61  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:17 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
They were fighting each other regardless from the starting gate, right there in hellfire peninsula. It's not how much fighting that was going on that matters (especially since we can't really tell due to game restraints) but more so that it was happening in the first place when there were much bigger fish to fry. They were allied for all of a moment and then fell right apart into fighting each other once more.
Can you link examples besides the ones I addressed?
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  #62  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:23 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
They were fighting each other regardless from the starting gate, right there in hellfire peninsula. It's not how much fighting that was going on that matters (especially since we can't really tell due to game restraints) but more so that it was happening in the first place when there were much bigger fish to fry. They were allied for all of a moment and then fell right apart into fighting each other once more.
What are you talking about? The first quests for about half of HFP have the Alliance/Horde -specifically- avoiding fighting each other. It only gets into that when the players leave for the secondary bases in the western part of the zone. And even there is was only a few quests. Most of the quests are against the Burning Legion, the Illadri, and the bird people, NOT against the Alliance/Horde.
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  #63  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:27 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Can you link examples besides the ones I addressed?
They had giant siege weapons aimed at each other in hellfire peninsula. They are fighting for territory there.

In Blades Edge the Orcs and Night Elves send players on quests to harm the other side as well. There is also the question of which PvP objectives are considered canon.

Those are what I can recall off the top of my head.

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What are you talking about? The first quests for about half of HFP have the Alliance/Horde -specifically- avoiding fighting each other. It only gets into that when the players leave for the secondary bases in the western part of the zone. And even there is was only a few quests. Most of the quests are against the Burning Legion, the Illadri, and the bird people, NOT against the Alliance/Horde.
Is that why Alliance and Horde both have quests whose purpose is purposely crippling the opposing sides weapons?
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  #64  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:39 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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But those come off more like isolated events separate from their main goals, unlike in Cata.

Alliance and Horde were still effectively in a cold war sort of scenario during that time.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:46 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post

Is that why Alliance and Horde both have quests whose purpose is purposely crippling the opposing sides weapons?
Those quests were to burn the siege engines to prevent the -fel orcs- from using them. Not to prevent the Horde or Alliance siege engines from being used by the Horde/Alliance. It was to -prevent- them from being used. Both factions were going out of their way to avoid fighting each other because the demon hordes were literally, right there. If you look at the mobs around the siege engines, they are fel orcs from the Hellfire Citadel, not Alliance/Horde NPCs.

The only quests I can remember in HFP that have the players attacking the other faction (sort of) is the one in the Temple of Telhamat in the western end of the zone. A Draenei NPC has Alliance players kill a bunch of Mag'har orcs because those orcs killed his brother. The Hordeside ones are a forsaken at Falcon Watch asking you to kill or do something with a Draenei prisoner he has and to prevent a group of Draenei from blessing and cleansing a alter at the Pools of Aggronar. And note that none of them really require you to actually attack a member of the other faction.
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  #66  
Old 09-30-2013, 09:47 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
But those come off more like isolated events separate from their main goals, unlike in Cata.

Alliance and Horde were still effectively in a cold war sort of scenario during that time.

Irrelevant. Alliance always complain that the horde attacks came from no where. The two had been fighting, even if it wasn't on the level of cata, since vanilla. There was a very very brief peace between WC3 and Vanilla. That was it. I don't even think we know who broke the peace, but the two sides were certainly fighting each other and didn't consider themselves allied or friendly.

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Those quests were to burn the siege engines to prevent the -fel orcs- from using them. Not to prevent the Horde or Alliance siege engines from being used by the Horde/Alliance. It was to -prevent- them from being used. Both factions were going out of their way to avoid fighting each other because the demon hordes were literally, right there. If you look at the mobs around the siege engines, they are fel orcs from the Hellfire Citadel, not Alliance/Horde NPCs.

The only quests I can remember in HFP that have the players attacking the other faction (sort of) is the one in the Temple of Telhamat in the western end of the zone. A Draenei NPC has Alliance players kill a bunch of Mag'har orcs because those orcs killed his brother. The Hordeside ones are a forsaken at Falcon Watch asking you to kill or do something with a Draenei prisoner he has and to prevent a group of Draenei from blessing and cleansing a alter at the Pools of Aggronar. And note that none of them really require you to actually attack a member of the other faction.
You're making an assumption on what they meant based on what you want them to mean for the sake of this argument.

Neither quest text refer to fel orcs at all. Both imply that the the quest giver believes the other side is going to use them.
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  #67  
Old 09-30-2013, 10:07 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Irrelevant. Alliance always complain that the horde attacks came from no where. The two had been fighting, even if it wasn't on the level of cata, since vanilla. There was a very very brief peace between WC3 and Vanilla. That was it. I don't even think we know who broke the peace, but the two sides were certainly fighting each other and didn't consider themselves allied or friendly.
And I never disputed the other examples you gave, however I simply find the actions in Outland to be negligible since they weren't anything more than laying a steaming turd on the other side's front lawn.
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:10 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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You're making an assumption on what they meant based on what you want them to mean for the sake of this argument.

Neither quest text refer to fel orcs at all. Both imply that the the quest giver believes the other side is going to use them.
I was slightly mistaken. This is the quest I assumed it was; http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Laying_Waste_to_the_Unwanted


But this quest is what I was thinking of; http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Enemy_of_my_Enemy...


Now we focus on the second target - Forge Camp: Rage. It lies just west of Mageddon. Trouble is, the demons have a number of fel cannons aimed straight at the Horde's outpost of Thrallmar! Though I can scarcely believe it, we actually need the Horde to help us hold the line at the Dark Portal. We can't afford to let Thrallmar fall. You've got to destroy these cannons before the Legion pulverizes our allies!

As far as I know, until Falcons Crest place and the Temple of Telhamat are reached, the Alliance and Horde do not do much against each other at all.
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