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Old 07-16-2015, 12:29 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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yeah, you also have to look at the meta side and remember that originally it wasnt even supposed to be the sha of Pride, it was the sha of SLOTH but that didnt fit at all with Garrosh plans.
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:21 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The stagnant inactivity of the continental Pandaren was basically a major plot point surrounding the Sha of Pride. It's extremely pertinent to their story duringMoP that very little happened and changed during the interim. In successfully cordoning off Pandaria from the rest of Azeroth, Shaohao imprinted upon them the idea that not only was Pandaria "better" than the rest of the world and more worth saving, but that Pandaria as it existed when he called up the Mists was "better."

That meant preserving the idyllic Pandaria that Shaohao had spared the depredations of the Legion and the Shattering. The Pandaria where the mogu were long beaten, and the Shado-pan were sufficient to man the Serpent's Spine, so there was no perceived need for any standing imperial army (Remember, Shaohao even started out first seeking to rally an army in preparation for the demonic invasion...then he let himself get talked out of it by the Celestials. army of trained Pandaren warriors might have come in handy when the night elves were frantically trying to drive back Legion's advance.)

If they'd had on-and-off internecine conflicts and power struggles the whole time between the WotA and MoP, further shaping their society while making them change and grow like any other part of the world would, it would negate the whole point that isolating Pandaria behind the Mists was a really bad idea.

The absence of the mogu was both an instigator and a symptom of the same thing. The routine, clockwork nature of the Mantid swarms kept the Pandaren vigilant of the one threat they'd always faced, but the lack of any significant mogu activity had them turning a blind eye to the places of power where their former oppressors once congregated. The primary mogu shrines and palaces in the Vale had long been their own emperors' seat of power, so the Golden Lotus kept them monitored, but they didn't bother with the underground labyrinths and ancient fortresses that had fallen to ruin. Consequently, the mogu were still around; the Pandaren just didn't know it because they didn't care to inhabit those places, so their ancient enemy was able to gather and plot unobserved in the dark recesses of their former holdings without fear of being detected. The resulting absence of a detected mogu threat allowed the Pandaren to forget they were still out there, furthering their already mounting complacency toward unforeseen dangers.

The Pandaren weren't "perfectly harmonious" because of all this. That's the point; they only thought they were. Existing in harmony means accepting that things still change, and knowing how to change with them. What the Pandaren did was just refuse to let anything change, and that's not real harmony. That's just encouraging stagnation for the sake of clinging to what's familiar.

Remember, Pride is the most insidious of Sha, and in myriad ways, all the inhabitants of Pandaria were in its thrall. Not only is Pride "good until it's bad"; it also begets the other Sha. In their Pride the Pandaren Feared to change, and were wracked with Doubt when change finally came for them. And when that change came some succumbed to Anger, Hatred and Violence out of the desire to prevent it, while others were beset by Despair as the change took away what they thought they would always have.
Are we sure that the Celestials are actually on our side?

1. They let Garrosh go.
2. They talked Shaohao into running away
3. They like the Black Prince.
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:54 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Are we sure that the Celestials are actually on our side?

1. They let Garrosh go.
2. They talked Shaohao into running away
3. They like the Black Prince.
The thing is...I'm not so much convinced they're "against" us so much as their own experiences have just traumatized them, making them pathologically prone to avoid meaningful action.

Thousands of years ago they stood up to Lei Shen and got their asses handed to them, so now they're perpetually convinced that next to the hazards of making a stand and failing, regretting inaction is the lesser evil.

It's bizarre too; story-wise, the only person they truly encourage to rise up and do something is the player. Conversely, the lore characters are routinely advised by them to learn from watching what happens instead of ever trying to affect the outcome of anything.

They're basically tushui to the fault; they're all for the lesson, but staunchly against acting upon it. They talked up how much they could learn from we "outsiders," but the primary worthwhile lesson we brought to Pandaria was how to take action, how to make a stand, and how to get things done.

Unfortunately the August Celestials couldn't (re)learn that particular lesson from us because the Thunder King beat it out of them thousands of years before we even arrive in Pandaria.

And not surprisingly, when the time came to pass judgment - to act - in delivering the verdict during Hellscream's trial, they were once more cowed by the fear that doing something - anything - would only make things worse. Naturally they'd already decided before the trial even began; from the very start their go-to solution was to keep things the way they were, with Garrosh not only alive but his misdeeds unaddressed and unpunished, and most importantly with no significant action taken to change any of that at their behest.

They left Garrosh unpunished (and despite their reasons for it, he learned nothing). They left Pride in power, allowing Pandaria and its peoples to be frozen in time for ten millennia. Even their "liking" of Wrathion boiled down to counseling him in inaction during his/the player's trials in the Legendary quests. It's all a staying action, to prevent change for fear of what it might bring. They're every bit as stuck in the loop of stagnant, timid inaction as the whole of Pandaria was for 10,000 years after the Sundering.

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-16-2015 at 11:57 PM..
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:08 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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What exactly do you want them to change with little technology outside of war machines? They won't go outside the wall besides the Shado-Pan, they live off of farms, and were forbidden from entering the Vale for years.

Humans haven't advanced that far compared to dwarves and goblins, and they compared to gnomes.
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critical thinking, mists of pandaria

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