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  #101  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:12 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Sa'danak View Post
Is it cheating to say I want both?
Not at all. In truth, when I was writing down the question, I wasn't imagining it to be A vs. B, but "Purist" servers coexisting with "Remastered" servers, just like Starcraft Remastered or Warcraft Reforged exist alongside classic versions.
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  #102  
Old 08-17-2019, 08:19 PM
Shandris Shandris is offline

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*looks through the thread*

Oh, still a bunch of people who don't like classic or know anything about the game providing commentary on it. Comical.

Well, we're launching in 10 days despite your best protests.

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
No some specs were cardboard cutouts that were intentionally shit because of the idiotic hybrid tax mentality. Good luck playing as a Ret pala or God forbid a balance druid.
I'm sorry, which specs are you calling "shit?" Balance is one of the most popular druid raiding specs, and paladins would have a much more difficult time leveling without their ret tree. Both specs are widely used so I am fascinated to know where you heard otherwise.

I thought this forum would be more interested in returning to a time of RPG gameplay. Suppose you all enjoy being the "one true hero of Azeroth" more than I thought. Strangely though, many of you aren't fond of BFA either, so it is a wonder which version of this game you actually like!
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  #103  
Old 08-18-2019, 02:36 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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Originally Posted by Shandris View Post
I thought this forum would be more interested in returning to a time of RPG gameplay. Suppose you all enjoy being the "one true hero of Azeroth" more than I thought. Strangely though, many of you aren't fond of BFA either, so it is a wonder which version of this game you actually like!
Wrath. Lookiing forward to 'World of Warcraft: Icee'.
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  #104  
Old 08-18-2019, 03:19 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Shandris View Post
I'm sorry, which specs are you calling "shit?" Balance is one of the most popular druid raiding specs, and paladins would have a much more difficult time leveling without their ret tree. Both specs are widely used so I am fascinated to know where you heard otherwise.
First off, your whole comment is very strange and out of nowhere.

Secondly, maybe people went somewhat into balance since it had good traits for a healer but I am sure there were few to none DPS druids in raids. Back then balance druids were not even moonkin, the level 40 talent was freaking hurricane, a basic AoE and moonkin form did not exist until late Vanilla or was it TBC even.
Likewise ret was also never going to be a DPS god in Vanilla. A paladin in a raid was likely to be a dispell bot or a healer. Yes you can use ret and balance and most any spec really to twack mobs in the wild but I was obviously talking top-tier endgame.

So yes, I stand by what I said. Many specs in Vanilla were attrocious and uncompetitive, and not Wrathbaby uncompetitive "waaah my DPS is 3% less than best DPS" but way, way in the toilet compared to the top tier DPS. Not like other roles were better, outside of some gimmicks, and usually only when overgearing content, the only viable raid tanks were prot warriors. This remained largely true even in TBC. Priest is also best healer clearly though it is not as extreme as with tanks, dwarf priest is god-tier.
And the worst bit? It was intentional. The thinking was that since hybrid classes can do all three roles they should not be able to do any one of those as good as a pure class, so hybrid classes were worse by design.
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  #105  
Old 08-18-2019, 05:10 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by Shandris View Post
Strangely though, many of you aren't fond of BFA either, so it is a wonder which version of this game you actually like!
I think the official consensus here on SoL is that any game after WCII is a disgrace to the universe and world of Warcraft, and should effectively be ignored.
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  #106  
Old 08-18-2019, 03:13 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I think the official consensus here on SoL is that any game after WCII is a disgrace to the universe and world of Warcraft, and should effectively be ignored.
WC3 manual is alright also.
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  #107  
Old 08-18-2019, 03:29 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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C9, you really need to stop being such a Warcraft III fanboy.
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  #108  
Old 08-18-2019, 03:36 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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C9, you really need to stop being such a Warcraft III fanboy.
Never!
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  #109  
Old 08-19-2019, 03:56 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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I thought the consensus was that everything after Warcraft 3 was garbage or of questionable quality.
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And Lordaeron

ffs I'm the only one who cares aren't I
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #110  
Old 08-19-2019, 06:08 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
I think the official consensus here on SoL is that any game after WCII is a disgrace to the universe and world of Warcraft, and should effectively be ignored.
I'm okay with this.

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Originally Posted by Royalpimp View Post
I thought the consensus was that everything after Warcraft 3 was garbage or of questionable quality.
Basically WC3 ruined the lore of the WC1-2 era, signalling the advent of the WC3 lore era, from which the WoW lore was built. However, BC really ruined WC1-3 lore. We just were caught unaware because Blizzard was like, "Look! Flying mounts!" and it only became obvious in retrospect as WoW went on.

Last edited by Genesis; 08-19-2019 at 06:12 AM..
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  #111  
Old 08-19-2019, 06:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Exactly. I'd only add that TBC was really the final nail in the coffin of Warcraft II, because those things that had survived the advent of Warcraft III were killed by the expansion and its associated novels.
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  #112  
Old 08-19-2019, 01:28 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Did Warcraft 3 ruin Warcraft 2 THAT badly though? I know some things were changed but I'm not sure it's really on par with what WoW has done to the RTS games overall. Then again I'm not as versed in Warcraft 1/2 as well as you, so fair enough.

Still, as far as the consensus on this forum goes, or at least did until people started leaving like crazy, I think Warcraft 3 is still considered the best thing that ever happened to this franchise.
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And Lordaeron

ffs I'm the only one who cares aren't I
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #113  
Old 08-20-2019, 06:40 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Royalpimp View Post
Did Warcraft 3 ruin Warcraft 2 THAT badly though? I know some things were changed but I'm not sure it's really on par with what WoW has done to the RTS games overall. Then again I'm not as versed in Warcraft 1/2 as well as you, so fair enough.
I would say that the creation of the Burning Legion, in general, is probably the biggest retcon made in the entire game. (At least until TBC said, "Hold my beer while we introduce space goats that retcon the retcon." ) The existence of the Burning Legion changed the entire cause of Warcraft 1 and 2. It changed what the orcs were about and who they were. (Demons made us do it.) It changed Medivh's story. (LoL. Sargeras made me do it.) High elves were changed to accomodate the night elves, and the raison d'etre for night elves were the Burning Legion. And you thought that Nerzhul and the Draenor orcs escaped at the end of The Dark Portal? Nope. Captured by Burning Legion and turned into the Lich King.

Nearly everything from WC1-2 became about the Burning Legion. The Age of Mortals that Medivh proclaims at the end of WC3 required that Blizzard add the Burning Legion and immortals to what was previously an Age of Mortals-focused series of games.

If I could change one thing about the Warcraft series, I now think that I would probably erase the Burning Legion metaplot.

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Still, as far as the consensus on this forum goes, or at least did until people started leaving like crazy, I think Warcraft 3 is still considered the best thing that ever happened to this franchise.
I would say that WC3 is probably the best game, being a more story-driven game than its predecessors and for the early years of WoW's history. It was the basis of characterization that WoW backtracked on and ignored.
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  #114  
Old 08-20-2019, 07:33 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
If I could change one thing about the Warcraft series, I now think that I would probably erase the Burning Legion metaplot.
Not sure if you've seen our discussions and ideas in this thread, but it is funny how they essentially follow the same premise.

https://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums...=221459&page=5

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I would say that WC3 is probably the best game, being a more story-driven game than its predecessors and for the early years of WoW's history. It was the basis of characterization that WoW backtracked on and ignored.
It certainly was the strongest one gameplay-wise (though I still think that having so much focus on heroes and removing naval combat were mistakes) and when it comes to storytelling. Lore and story in itself is quite debatable, it had both strong and weak points.
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  #115  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:05 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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WC3 had okay to good ideas (The Orcs/Horde going in a new direction after failure and shame or just starting a new country, the Alliance falling into corruption, more factions with a threat from the Nether).

TBC just had bad to iffy ideas (Horde Blood Elves, Paladin Eredar, making Zul'jin a designated raid boss).

Last edited by Cacofonix; 08-20-2019 at 11:07 AM..
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  #116  
Old 08-21-2019, 03:43 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Not sure if you've seen our discussions and ideas in this thread, but it is funny how they essentially follow the same premise.

https://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums...=221459&page=5
I responded somewhere in the thread, but I was not following it too closely. That said, I'm not terribly surprised that people would have similar ideas when looking at the impact of the Burning Legion metaplot, especially following the Legion expansion.

Where I would potentially disagree is the desire to preserve some big elements of Warcraft 3 (e.g., the Scourge) while removing the Burning Legion Metaplot. I don't think that it's necessary.

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It certainly was the strongest one gameplay-wise (though I still think that having so much focus on heroes and removing naval combat were mistakes) and when it comes to storytelling. Lore and story in itself is quite debatable, it had both strong and weak points.
I missed naval combat too, though the precursor to hero units was already present back in Warcraft 2: Beyond the Dark Portal, Starcraft, and Starcraft: Brood War.
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  #117  
Old 08-21-2019, 06:47 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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What's wrong with having the Scourge with a different Legion? Reading the thread, the agreement seems to be less having no Legion and more having a remade Legion that's not some master behind both the Orcs and Scourge (who are both still factions but they are less rooted in the Legion).
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  #118  
Old 08-21-2019, 06:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Where I would potentially disagree is the desire to preserve some big elements of Warcraft 3 (e.g., the Scourge) while removing the Burning Legion Metaplot. I don't think that it's necessary.
It's absolutely not necessary, but I think Ner'zhul building upon his Shadowmoon knowledge and traditions to form a separate geopolitical entity is a neat concept once once you take away the whole "apocalyptic army created by demons to weaken Greater Azeroth" angle, so why not toy with it?

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I missed naval combat too, though the precursor to hero units was already present back in Warcraft 2: Beyond the Dark Portal, Starcraft, and Starcraft: Brood War.
I did not mean to imply heroes shouldn't have been a thing, just perhaps that they should have been tackled a bit differently.
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  #119  
Old 08-21-2019, 07:35 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Maybe you could just picture the Scourge as Ner'zhul's Eastern Kingdom made Horde with Humans, Elves, Demons, and Undead instead of Orcs, Trolls, Ogres, and Goblins?

Last edited by Cacofonix; 08-21-2019 at 08:01 AM..
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  #120  
Old 08-21-2019, 08:05 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
It's absolutely not necessary, but I think Ner'zhul building upon his Shadowmoon knowledge and traditions to form a separate geopolitical entity is a neat concept once once you take away the whole "apocalyptic army created by demons to weaken Greater Azeroth" angle, so why not toy with it?
The Cult of the Damned was an intriguing idea. I like the idea of a Lich King. I'm just not sure if Ner'zhul was necessary for the Scourge. It could be much like the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow where human contact with orc necrolytes and death knights spurred a new fascination with undeath and a new heretical movement. (Where there is Light, there must also be shadow.) Kel'thuzad could occupy much the same place as Ner'zhul. They even both have needless fantasy apostrophes in their names.

I would also have considered something for orcs more along the lines of what GW2 did for the charr. The conquering bestial charr were antagonists of the first GW game. By the beginning of GW2, charr rejected the demonic titans that the shaman caste followed, believing them to be "false gods." However, instead of looking backwards on pre-Titan worship practices, the charr embraced self-reliance and technology, ushering in the industrial revolution. Charr tolerate magic in so far as its utility for warfare.

In some regards this is similar to the Iron Horde, but I would have enjoyed having Thrall lead the orcs to an industrial revolution rather than a spiritual one. Screw the "demons made us do bad things" narrative and in favor of "demons made us weak." While bad stuff happens in the north, Thrall takes advantage of the situation and reconquers Stormwind and builds the new orcish industrial capital on top of its ruins.

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I did not mean to imply heroes shouldn't have been a thing, just perhaps that they should have been tackled a bit differently.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
What's wrong with having the Scourge with a different Legion? Reading the thread, the agreement seems to be less having no Legion and more having a remade Legion that's not some master behind both the Orcs and Scourge (who are both still factions but they are less rooted in the Legion).
Not sure if I would have any Legion. Powerful demon lords that other demons follow (e.g., Sargeras, Kil'jaeden, etc.)? Sure. Various Legions of demonic hordes? Probably not. I would prefer the driving force any Scourge to be the "human" element of self-interest, power, and fear of death rather than demons. Have the Scourge be an external representation of the dark Shadow and corruptive decay of the Alliance of Lordaeron and its Light.
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  #121  
Old 08-21-2019, 09:41 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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They can be that while still built from Ner'zhul's Horde though?
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  #122  
Old 08-27-2019, 03:13 AM
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They can be that while still built from Ner'zhul's Horde though?
Thing is, I don't mind Thrall per se. I liked the idea of giving the Horde a fresh face among the next generation. Same with Arthas and Jaina for the Alliance.

I don't think that there was much suggestion that Ner'zhul at the end of BtDP would be coming back to Azeroth. In fact, there really was not much indication that any of the characters, including the Alliance ones, would be on Draenor or Azeroth after BtDP because in "victory" Khadgar leads them all blindly into the Twisting Nether.

So Thrall was a neat idea. I'm not sure, however, that the Burning Legion metaplot and the whole "returning to shamanistic roots" was necessarily the best call because it has caused a LOT of headaches in the stories that WoW ended up creating.
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  #123  
Old 08-27-2019, 09:16 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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What's wrong with Ner'zhul just finding his way back to Azeroth with help from Kil'jaeden (who could just be another demon lord with his own minions) to act out some scheme?

As for the rest, is it having the Legion that's the problem or just having an ultimate villain behind the Scourge and Orcs that's the problem?
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  #124  
Old 08-27-2019, 10:51 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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As much as I like the idea of Ner'zhul as the Lich King, combining his knowledge, Shadowmoon traditions and magiks, and the power he gathers while traversing the Lower Planes to create his ultimate necromantic army, I see no reason why he has to be personally present on Greater Azeroth, and really he should not. There's no reason why he should once you remove the Burning Legion metaplot, there was no indication he had any interest to ever going to Azeroth, and the Lich King works much better as an enigmatic figure from beyond cosmos that simply touches the minds of certain humans and orcs on the said planet. In such a scenario, the Frozen Throne can easily work as a gateway allowing his consciousness much more direct influence, not a prison, and liches, dreadlords, cold wraits can be just his heralds from beyond.

As for the Alliance Expedition, in their case, I can easily see them attempting to find their way back home, so their potential return is not an issue, so long as there's a long way before that.
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  #125  
Old 08-28-2019, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
What's wrong with Ner'zhul just finding his way back to Azeroth with help from Kil'jaeden (who could just be another demon lord with his own minions) to act out some scheme?
Much as Marthen says, there was no indication that Ner'zhul wanted to go back or cared about Azeroth.

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As for the rest, is it having the Legion that's the problem or just having an ultimate villain behind the Scourge and Orcs that's the problem?
Yes to both.
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