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  #10601  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:00 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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cantus stop replying, these people argued about LAMPOSTS, stop trying to defend yourself, they dont care. Be the admin you have to be and tell them to stfu and deal with it.
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  #10602  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:07 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Pls unban PJ.
The ban will end in approximately 9 hours.
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  #10603  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:07 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
You're digging yourself deeper, Cantus. You need to step back.
Whether or not I'm actively responding to it, the topic will dig for itself unless dealt with. Better to face it head on than let it dig its way into topics where it has no place.
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  #10604  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:25 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Whether or not I'm actively responding to it, the topic will dig for itself unless dealt with. Better to face it head on than let it dig its way into topics where it has no place.
I don't think you realize how little credibility you have on SoL. You are not widely seen as reasonable, or impartial. Maybe it's not fair, maybe it's unjust, but it is what it is. Some of the other mods have better reputations, and if you want to help this site, you need to step back and have them deal with things. Everything you say is held under greater scrutiny because of how politicized you are, and how aggressive you are about your beliefs. Which isn't unusual in SoL, but you are a mod. When you ban someone, it will be seen through the lens of your politics because that is how you present yourself. Everything you do deepens the doubt.

You have made the problem worse, and you continue to make it worse. This doesn't even have that much to do with your rulings. It has everything to do with how you are perceived. I do not think you can change the perception at this point, so let someone else do this.
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  #10605  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:34 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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If you guys don't calm down, then I'm going to have to sit you at the kids' table at Thanksgiving this year. Don't test me. Do you want that or do you want to sit at the adult table with us?
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  #10606  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:36 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Nazja and Kellick aren't supposed to give long philosophical explanations, because they're not the ones defining the rules. They're part of that process, but they aren't the final authority on why any given rule exists. There's a reason for that separation, they shouldn't get flack for things that aren't in their control. And you can roll your eyes at my treating a volunteer position as a job all you want, but would you rather Staff treated this place as a playground? Let others assume that we treat it as one?
Honestly, taking a step back and being a little less serious about things would probably be a tremendous step in the right direction. The reputation of this place couldn't get any worse if it weren't already totally irrelevant to begin with! So yeah, let's treat it more like a playground! Better than treating it more like a courtroom. SoL is supposed to be fun, right? You're supposed to be coming here to shoot the shit about nerdy stuff and blow off steam, not dump your aggression and frustrations.
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Last edited by Saranus; 09-23-2017 at 02:42 PM..
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  #10607  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:54 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Better to face it head on than let it dig its way into topics where it has no place.

no it is not, either be boss or ignore them, you've spent months doing the same shit and it lead nowhere
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  #10608  
Old 09-23-2017, 02:54 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
Honestly, taking a step back and being a little less serious about things would probably be a tremendous step in the right direction. The reputation of this place couldn't get any worse if it weren't already totally irrelevant to begin with! So yeah, let's treat it more like a playground! Better than treating it more like a courtroom. SoL is supposed to be fun, right? You're supposed to be coming here to shoot the shit about nerdy stuff and blow off steam, not dump your aggression and frustrations.
I don't even have time to dump my aggression/frustrations here, much less shoot the shit. So, if I'm here, typically it's because something went wrong. And if something went wrong, I'm not going to flit around idly, I'm going to put my admin hat on and deal with it.

As to the courtroom thing...this is the R&R thread, that's what it's designed for. Outside of this place, you're right, no need to be some dour judge.
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  #10609  
Old 09-23-2017, 03:06 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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The problem is that Cantus is a scapegoat, but he's not letting us chase him into the ocean. All would be well if only he accepted his responsibilities.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10610  
Old 09-23-2017, 03:25 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
The problem is that Cantus is a scapegoat, but he's not letting us chase him into the ocean. All would be well if only he accepted his responsibilities.
He's contributing to the problems in a way that isn't helpful and only makes things worse than they neeed to be.
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  #10611  
Old 09-23-2017, 03:36 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
He's contributing to the problems in a way that isn't helpful and only makes things worse than they neeed to be.
I'm inclined to agree. At this point, it would probably be better for everyone if he stopped trying to take control of the situation, and let things play out.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10612  
Old 09-23-2017, 04:11 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I'll reiterate since I haven't gotten a response.

Cantus: do you understand how you are perceived? You could come down on a beam of heavenly light delivering beer and pretzels to everyone on the forum, and it still wouldn't be enough to get a lot of them to trust you.

You need to step back and have someone else hand out the bans. When you ban someone, most people assume that you are doing it out of spite because of how you've presented yourself in the past. There is no way to fix it, and the more you try, the worst it gets. It's not fair, but that's how it is.

The mods might be talking about new plans for the forum, but there won't be much of a forum left if this goes on.
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Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 09-23-2017 at 04:13 PM..
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  #10613  
Old 09-23-2017, 04:25 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Nazja and Kellick aren't supposed to give long philosophical explanations, because they're not the ones defining the rules. They're part of that process, but they aren't the final authority on why any given rule exists.
No sarcasm or bile intended when I ask: Are you really the final authority?
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  #10614  
Old 09-23-2017, 05:22 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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The ban will end in approximately 9 hours.
I doubt she would come back right after the end of the ban. It would be sad to see more ppl leave.
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  #10615  
Old 09-23-2017, 06:19 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Genya, please stop telling me to ignore other users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I'll reiterate since I haven't gotten a response.

Cantus: do you understand how you are perceived? You could come down on a beam of heavenly light delivering beer and pretzels to everyone on the forum, and it still wouldn't be enough to get a lot of them to trust you.

You need to step back and have someone else hand out the bans. When you ban someone, most people assume that you are doing it out of spite because of how you've presented yourself in the past. There is no way to fix it, and the more you try, the worst it gets. It's not fair, but that's how it is.

The mods might be talking about new plans for the forum, but there won't be much of a forum left if this goes on.
I'm quite aware of how I'm perceived. I'm not losing sleep over it (anymore), but I'm aware.

In terms of your other suggestions...as exemplified during the height of the last time this became a serious issue, it doesn't matter whether I step back or not. Kellick volunteered to step in for Hammer's ban (one which was agreed upon by a vote by multiple staff members) and ended up being charged with being the puppet in some sinister cabal. Every decision that people don't like, regardless of my input in them, will be assumed to be my fault. I could and did stop posting for a month, and nothing changed. Nothing will change, because certain individuals will never see a ruling for what it is, only for the conspiracy they believe is behind it. And because those individuals tend to get on top of soap boxes, things devolve.

Now that doesn't mean I don't try to step back from rulings, it just means that some events will always be seen in different lights by different people. PJ's suspension is one such event. If I wasn't the individual warning or suspending PJ's harassment of me, does anyone really believe the other Staff member going through those motions won't be assumed to "be doing my bidding"? I should clarify with that last rhetorical question, no mod has ever or will ever be asked to do something against their will. But back on topic, whether or not I had anything to do with it, users who dislike me will always assume (and get up on soapboxes to decry) my "obvious guilt." And that's a scenario where I'm not even involved in the warnings, much less what happened. Asking Nazja or Kellick to step into a potential firestorm when we know it's likely to occur helps no one and just makes things look petty and political. It wasn't and isn't, so asking them to maneuver around the obvious isn't a wise idea.

As to the survival of the forum, we've already talked about that topic in previous months. Every staff member has been told by at least one user or another that they no longer feel like this is a welcoming community because we were too lenient with abusive members. We've seen several people take extended personal hiatuses because of this fact. That doesn't mean we're looking to make SoL a "safe space," but it does require Staff become the "bad guy" in terms of stopping certain behaviors that are abusive (whether overtly or covertly). If you want to really know why we're "less popular" (relative to the past) it's because the overall lore community has other outlets these days and SoL doesn't really talk about Lore as much as it once did. The drama is a multiplier, but it's not the prime problem. The biggest problem is making sure that any recruitment that occurs doesn't bring in more abusive users (I'm sorry, but I don't want any of Galdus' ilk here regardless if it adds more warm bodies to the mix) because that's the only type of individual willing to come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
No sarcasm or bile intended when I ask: Are you really the final authority?
Warlock is always the final authority. After Warlock, it's Admins, then Mods. Warlock doesn't typically weigh in, thus the Admins (plural, all of us) are the ongoing authority for day to day operations. Mods, while given the opportunity to weigh in on how things work, can still be overruled by an Admin. For that same reason, Mods carrying out enforcement of agreed upon rules shouldn't be required to answer to users on the reasoning for those rules nor should they bear the brunt of users ire for the existence of such rules.
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  #10616  
Old 09-23-2017, 06:32 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Do as you please then, but your approach is shit and will remain shit if it remains the same.
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  #10617  
Old 09-24-2017, 02:03 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Everyone just validated PJ's behavior.

This is bad.
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  #10618  
Old 09-24-2017, 03:08 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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I have the feeling that there are not many other admin willing to step into the fray.
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  #10619  
Old 09-24-2017, 05:45 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I've posted this quote before. I like it because it's specifically about Lamp Posts.

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Originally Posted by G.K. Chesterton, Heretics (1905)
Suppose that a great commotion arises in the street about something, let us say a lamp-post, which many influential persons desire to pull down. A grey-clad monk, who is the spirit of the Middle Ages, is approached upon the matter, and begins to say, in the arid manner of the Schoolmen, "Let us first of all consider, my brethren, the value of Light. If Light be in itself good—" At this point he is somewhat excusably knocked down. All the people make a rush for the lamp-post, the lamp-post is down in ten minutes, and they go about congratulating each other on their unmediaeval practicality. But as things go on they do not work out so easily. Some people have pulled the lamp-post down because they wanted the electric light; some because they wanted old iron; some because they wanted darkness, because their deeds were evil. Some thought it not enough of a lamp-post, some too much; some acted because they wanted to smash municipal machinery; some because they wanted to smash something. And there is war in the night, no man knowing whom he strikes. So, gradually and inevitably, to-day, to-morrow, or the next day, there comes back the conviction that the monk was right after all, and that all depends on what is the philosophy of Light. Only what we might have discussed under the gas-lamp, we now must discuss in the dark.
I'm not always careful, but I need to be more careful. I need to because I like moderation and because I'm fine with most of the decisions that get made.

I don't want the lampposts torn down just because I'm not always fond of the light's tone. I need to keep that in mind. I can consider that my first warning. (But not really my first.)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-24-2017 at 05:53 AM..
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  #10620  
Old 09-24-2017, 09:28 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Everyone just validated PJ's behavior.

This is bad.
I dunno, I think everyone acknowledging Cantus is a scapegoat and Cantus pointing out that the last time someone else handled it for him everyone decided Kellick was a sinister minion of his conspiracy, were pretty compelling points.
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  #10621  
Old 09-24-2017, 10:18 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I dunno, I think everyone acknowledging Cantus is a scapegoat and Cantus pointing out that the last time someone else handled it for him everyone decided Kellick was a sinister minion of his conspiracy, were pretty compelling points.
I don't find it that compelling. Did people really say that about Kellick? Who? Would it really matter that much if they did? "Everyone decided Kellick was a sinister minion of his conspiracy" comes across as pretty hyperbolic. Really? Everyone? Because I don't even remember this happening.

I think Cantus either needs to stop making rulings altogether, or he needs to stop engaging with dissenters after the fact. How many times has he said "last post on the matter" followed by a dozen more posts explaining his explanations? Cantus, you say that it would be worse if you didn't engage with them, but I disagree. There would be the usual grumbling, but people would eventually move on. If you would just make site staff's position clear and concise, then disengage. Leave all the unnecessary soapbox moralizing and explanations out of it.
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  #10622  
Old 09-24-2017, 10:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
I don't find it that compelling. Did people really say that about Kellick? Who? Would it really matter that much if they did? "Everyone decided Kellick was a sinister minion of his conspiracy" comes across as pretty hyperbolic. Really? Everyone? Because I don't even remember this happening.

I think Cantus either needs to stop making rulings altogether, or he needs to stop engaging with dissenters after the fact. How many times has he said "last post on the matter" followed by a dozen more posts explaining his explanations? Cantus, you say that it would be worse if you didn't engage with them, but I disagree. There would be the usual grumbling, but people would eventually move on. If you would just make site staff's position clear and concise, then disengage. Leave all the unnecessary soapbox moralizing and explanations out of it.
Okay admittedly it was just Yaska who said very unkind things about Kellick, but people still acted like it was Cantus behind it in general


I will agree that 'last post' should mean last post.
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  #10623  
Old 09-24-2017, 11:32 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
I don't find it that compelling. Did people really say that about Kellick? Who? Would it really matter that much if they did? "Everyone decided Kellick was a sinister minion of his conspiracy" comes across as pretty hyperbolic. Really? Everyone? Because I don't even remember this happening.

I think Cantus either needs to stop making rulings altogether, or he needs to stop engaging with dissenters after the fact. How many times has he said "last post on the matter" followed by a dozen more posts explaining his explanations? Cantus, you say that it would be worse if you didn't engage with them, but I disagree. There would be the usual grumbling, but people would eventually move on. If you would just make site staff's position clear and concise, then disengage. Leave all the unnecessary soapbox moralizing and explanations out of it.
Your last post said less of a courtroom and more of a playground, which I think implies being less harsh. This current post seems to imply being more harsh and quashing responders, as Genya advocates.
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  #10624  
Old 09-24-2017, 12:24 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Your last post said less of a courtroom and more of a playground, which I think implies being less harsh. This current post seems to imply being more harsh and quashing responders, as Genya advocates.
I did not imply that. You inferred that.
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  #10625  
Old 09-24-2017, 12:28 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I did not imply that. You inferred that.
Both posts?
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