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  #301  
Old 07-10-2009, 04:44 PM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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I think that mages don't summon the "friendly" elemental spirits that already exist on Azeroth, but that they summon the "evil" elementals that got banished to the elemental plane^^
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  #302  
Old 07-10-2009, 05:09 PM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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Yes, many of them are summoned.
Here is one of the quests I refered too.

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=1151

"he elementals faded from our world and now only return at the bidding of powerful mages."
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  #303  
Old 07-11-2009, 04:18 AM
Daiol Daiol is offline

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Originally Posted by Wabbajack View Post
I think that mages don't summon the "friendly" elemental spirits that already exist on Azeroth, but that they summon the "evil" elementals that got banished to the elemental plane^^
You imply a distinction where there is none. With the exception of the Elemental and Abyssal Lords (and direct creations of theirs like the Flamewakers, which are partially an exception since the Molten Core is almost a link to the Firelands), any Elemental could exist either on Azeroth or on the Elemental Plane. The aformentioned ones need to be summoned (Abyssal Lords in Silithus, Ragnaros in Redridge, Ahune in Coilfang, etc), however.
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  #304  
Old 07-11-2009, 09:45 AM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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No, not only the lords, but all elementals that followed the Old Gods got banished into the elemental plane and need to be summoned. There are more than enough sources for this.

Last edited by Wabbajack; 07-11-2009 at 11:10 AM..
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  #305  
Old 07-11-2009, 03:52 PM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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Uhm no. There were still Elementals powerful enough to stay on Azeroth.

In addition the "good elementals" stayed. The Elemental Spirits.
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  #306  
Old 07-11-2009, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RobLore View Post
Uhm no. There were still Elementals powerful enough to stay on Azeroth.

In addition the "good elementals" stayed. The Elemental Spirits.
No, they may have seeped in from the Elemental Plain later, but the Titans don't seem like the kind of world builders to forget a few Elementals here and there.

And the "good elementals," that you keep mentioning have not been defined as such. Hell, we don't even know what they really are and how they got to the positions they currently hold, so it's pure speculation as to their intentions and whereabouts in the lore.
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  #307  
Old 07-11-2009, 08:35 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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There seems to be a ill-defined line between Elementals, those banished to the Elemental Plain, and elemental spirits, those that are tied to shamanism and exist throughout the universe.
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  #308  
Old 07-13-2009, 09:41 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Transforming from a priest into a paladin, in terms of lore Id assume this was possible but how different are they really? The reason I ask is Im writing* a story that I had hoped to have a priest as one of the characters who over time learns to fight from the warrior in the group. I only use the term paladin for gameplay reasons.

*by writing I mean tossing around ideas in my head that may one day fall out and land on paper.
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  #309  
Old 07-13-2009, 09:45 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Transforming from a priest into a paladin mostly involved working out and learning military tactics. Transforming from a knight into a paladin involved learning scripture and divine magic.
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  #310  
Old 07-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Thats what I assumed, thank you.
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  #311  
Old 07-19-2009, 10:55 AM
Rowan Seven Rowan Seven is offline

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I apologize if this has already been asked, but with all the changes in the timeline are Arthas and Thrall still considered to be the same age, with Jaina one year younger like they were in the Warcraft III manual? I've heard that Thrall has a cameo in "Rise of the Lich King" and am curious if the ages have been modified since Thrall, Arthas, and Jaina are one of the barometers I use to estimate the ages of other characters.
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  #312  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:05 PM
Eisenh0wer Eisenh0wer is offline

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Default Sargeras

Hello, I have a question about Sargeras. I know he was defeated at the end of the War of the Ancients - the Well collapsing upon him as he was coming through. The novel "The Sundering" described it as Sargeras "ceasing to be." I assume he was sent back to the Twisting Nether or what-have-you. My question is, however, how did he come back all those centuries later to fight Aegwynn? He just appears on Azeroth and combats the Guardian. The thing that confuses me the most is how he came to be on Azeroth? If he could just appear on Azeroth like that, why all the trouble with needing the Well to transport himself there? And when he was on Azeroth, why didn't he just destroy it as it was feared he would do in the WotA, as he is apparently capable? Instead, he fought and was defeated by a single mage, albeit a powerful one... just doesn't seem to jive with the Sargeras who is lauded as the single most powerful entity in the universe.

According to Wowwiki, he lost the fight (maybe on purpose) so he would keep his soul/spirit in Aegwynn and then later possess her son, Medivh, so he could use the mage to eventually unleash the Horde upon Azeroth. But why go through all that trouble? Why not just raze Azeroth yourself in all your might or come with your Legion again? And when Medivh was killed and Sargeras cast out, what the heck happened to him? Based on Kil'jaeden's entrance speech at the start of his fight in the Sunwell, he's in control of the Legion now, taking Sargeras's place.

Any clarifications and help appreciated, thanks.
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  #313  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:21 PM
Atomic_Piggy Atomic_Piggy is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenh0wer View Post
Hello, I have a question about Sargeras. I know he was defeated at the end of the War of the Ancients - the Well collapsing upon him as he was coming through. The novel "The Sundering" described it as Sargeras "ceasing to be." I assume he was sent back to the Twisting Nether or what-have-you. My question is, however, how did he come back all those centuries later to fight Aegwynn? He just appears on Azeroth and combats the Guardian. The thing that confuses me the most is how he came to be on Azeroth? If he could just appear on Azeroth like that, why all the trouble with needing the Well to transport himself there? And when he was on Azeroth, why didn't he just destroy it as it was feared he would do in the WotA, as he is apparently capable? Instead, he fought and was defeated by a single mage, albeit a powerful one... just doesn't seem to jive with the Sargeras who is lauded as the single most powerful entity in the universe.
Your correct about the first part, that was just a dramatic way of saying he was banished. The Sargeras that came through to fight Aegwynn was an avatar.

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Originally Posted by Eisenh0wer View Post
According to Wowwiki, he lost the fight (maybe on purpose) so he would keep his soul/spirit in Aegwynn and then later possess her son, Medivh, so he could use the mage to eventually unleash the Horde upon Azeroth. But why go through all that trouble? Why not just raze Azeroth yourself in all your might or come with your Legion again? And when Medivh was killed and Sargeras cast out, what the heck happened to him? Based on Kil'jaeden's entrance speech at the start of his fight in the Sunwell, he's in control of the Legion now, taking Sargeras's place.
I guess it was because he was an avatar, so he didn't really have that much power.
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  #314  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:23 PM
Wulfang Wulfang is offline

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Basically, Aegwynn travelled to Northrend, for a demonic incursion was going on over there. When she arrived, she found out the demons had been slaughtering blue dragons for their magic, which they were using to power up some portal. Aegwynn made short work of the demons there and then launched a spell at the portal, attempting to destroy it. Sargeras, owever, was waiting on the other side and, for the split second in which the spell hit and energized the portal before destroying it, he slipped into Azeroth in a tremendously weakened state, leaving most of his power behind but still remaining so powerful he could shatter mountains just by saying "Guardian".

Then, after taunting the Guardian, he prepared to attack her, only she got a lucky shot and cast a spell on him that quickly turned him into stone and then sealed his petrified body in an ancient Kaldorei temple long forgotten beneath the waves, ensorcelling it so it could not be opened by the hand of any human or elf. However, unbeknownst to her, the spirit of the Dark Titan had slipped away just in time, hiding in her own body but unable to possess it. But then came the day she got pregnant with Medivh, finally giving the Dark Titan a physical body to inhabit...

Now, whether Sargeras did all this as an enormously long running gambit to infiltrate Azeroth or it was just some desperate move he pulled on the spot that yielded decent results is up to speculation.
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  #315  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:31 PM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Ill explain as best as I can.

Demons range in power, the greater their power the more complicated their summoning is, take Archimonde he required quite a lot of mumbo jumbo to be summoned, whereas your average wow imp doesnt even need a soulstone

yes?

Now Sargeras wanted to get into Azeroth trough the well so that he could drink its energies like lucozade and get more power

yes?

Alas he was foiled and lets fast foward to Aegwyn

yes?

So Sargeras realizes that the pride of that woman runs deep, so he creates a plan to get the power of the guardian and take Azeroth once again, so he summons himself to Azeroth, this however... means that he was really weak since he didnt had the propper summoning and all that stuff, thus Aegwyn defeats him

yes?

So Aegwyn realizes she is the queen **** of the Universe and... no wait thats Starcraft, so she realizes that she knows best that the council and decides that her son should be the next guardian (wheter Sargeras was behind this descition is pure especulation) so she has a 1 night stand with a mage and then dumps him off with a child... a great mother Id say

yes?

Regretably Medivh has a sealed evil within so once he matures he is possesed by Sargeras who with the Guardian´s power decides that the council does not make a nice decoration for the Azeroth he wants to create so he kills them all and becomes the first raid boss on WC history (in the chronologic sense of the games, the first raid boss would be Azhara... but if Furion is a Druid and Tyrande is a hunter/priest... then who was casting debuffs?)

yes?

So Khadgar, Garona and Lothar meet outside the Looking for group stone and decide to get into the dungeon, they win and Sargeras is apparently banished... or is he?


Well thats my 2 cents, would you like fries with that?
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  #316  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:44 PM
Eisenh0wer Eisenh0wer is offline

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Thank you, that clarified a lot. However, it seems unlikely that it was an avatar of Sargeras... if it was, then how did Sargeras end up transferring his spirit and possessing Medivh if it wasn't actually him but rather his avatar? Seems more likely that it was just Sargeras in a vastly weakened state. Thanks again.
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  #317  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:49 PM
Wulfang Wulfang is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenh0wer View Post
Thank you, that clarified a lot. However, it seems unlikely that it was an avatar of Sargeras... if it was, then how did Sargeras end up transferring his spirit and possessing Medivh if it wasn't actually him but rather his avatar? Seems more likely that it was just Sargeras in a vastly weakened state. Thanks again.
Godly beings (called Eternals in this setting) don't work that way in Warcraft. Being an Avatar simply meant that either it was Sargeras himself in just a shadow of his true power or a temporary body he created and then sent his spirit into so he could enter Azeroth. Which one of these is the correct one has been the reason for many debates in the past and we still haven't reached an agreement.
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  #318  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:49 PM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Well the way I see it Azeroth athmosphere is like this force field.

A summoning allows you to avoid it, but you need them to make a big gate for you to pass.

However Sargeras simply jumped in and while still god-like to some standarts the Guardian defeated him, alas he knew that like all women her age Aegwyn would eventually like to have a child.

Yes?
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  #319  
Old 07-21-2009, 02:23 PM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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I don't know if it was ever addressed anywhere, but I have been wondering if the decision of the Blood Elves to join the Horde was approved by Kael'thas? I'm wondering if this was a decision made by Kael'thas that was passed on to Lor'themar by Rommath when he returned to Silvermoon. It would seem rather brash for Lor'themar to have made such a bold decision while Kael'thas was still considered their leader. Were they afraid of retaliation from the Draenei? Or did they hear that the Horde was heading to Outland and jumped at the opportunity? It's always been unclear to me how the Blood Elves and Forsaken overcame their prejudice for their former enemies to become their allies. I hope one day a writer will go deeper into exploring that.
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  #320  
Old 07-21-2009, 03:10 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Sadly, the portrayal of the relationship between Kael'thas and his people in Azeroth remains an incongruous mess to this day. It's not really even made clear whether Kael'thas ever set foot on Azeroth between the end of TFT and the beginning of the Sunwell Plateau, or if every bit of contact he had was through Rommath and the magisters that brought their captive Naaru to Silvermoon.

Then to make matters worse, Blood Elf player characters who lorewise spend most of the 1-60 leveling experience as starry-eyed Kael'thas fanboys/girls enter Outland and cavalierly start slaughtering their brethren there without batting an eye or wondering why the Blood Elves in Outland are running amok and attack the Horde just as viciously as the Alliance.

Among all this, Kael'thas remains absent from Blood Elf society until players are sent to bump him off in Tempest Keep, followed by his mocking declaration of fealty to Kil'Jaeden and the theft of Mu'ru.

So when the smoke clears and Kael'thas is slain, it remains a cluttered mystery whether he was even remotely involved in any decision-making among his people whatsoever, or if they were all doing their own thing on Azeroth and just taking occasional pointers from Rommath.

Even that's somewhat disjointed because despite Kael'thas' followers presenting Outland as some arcane paradise where their people's glorious future lies, and despite the seeming fanatical loyalty that his people express toward him at the beginning, most of the Sin'dorei aren't traveling there but rather remain on Azeroth trying to rebuild their shattered kingdom, suggesting that there probably was a pretty significant disconnect between the Blood Elves in both worlds and their leaders.

Meaning that despite the grand future Kael'thas offered them, the majority of the Blood Elves still elected to remain on a world with more limited magic access and full of neighbors who've hated them for thousands of years.

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-21-2009 at 03:13 PM..
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  #321  
Old 07-21-2009, 09:26 PM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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Thanks, that is pretty much what I suspected.
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  #322  
Old 07-23-2009, 12:13 PM
Dagren Dagren is offline

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Default Old Gods and Elementals

So, with the "Old Gods show up after the Ordering" retcon we had in WotLK, what has become of the war between the Titans and the Elementals?

The way I view things now is like this:
The elementals and their Old Gods masters have always been on Azeroth, or if you prefer, arrived pre-Ordering.
When the Titans came to order Azeroth, they fought the elementals and banished them to the elemental plane. The Old Gods remain hidden this whole time.

Late during the ordering, the Old Gods throw their Curse of Flesh at the Titan's constructs so that they can have new minions. The Titans get pissed and make war on the Old Gods.
They chain the Olds gods beneath the earth since they can't kill them without losing Azeroth and leave with failsafe systems behind.


What do you think? Is there any material that can invalidate this theory ? Do you have a better one?
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  #323  
Old 07-23-2009, 12:35 PM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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I was basically under the same impression. That the Old Gods were on Azeroth with the Elementals pre-ordering and then returned.
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  #324  
Old 07-23-2009, 02:30 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The phrasing of the Tribunal of Ages' description still leaves room for interpretation, but I too am inclined to think the Old Gods' existence on Azeroth still predated the Titans' reordering of things.

The exact words it uses are: "In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes."

It doesn't elaborate on whether Azeroth's 'development cycle" is limited to the reordering process, or if it's a general term for the planet's entire lifespan, including its primordial existence.

It seems (to me anyway) that the Titans might have defeated the Elemental Lords without paying much heed to their worship of the Old Gods at first, assuming the Old Gods were just some form of abstract concept of entropy worshiped by the primordial Elemental Lords, then were forced to return when it later became evident that the Old Gods were actual, physical entities that posed a threat to their reordering of the planet.
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  #325  
Old 07-24-2009, 07:56 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Are all the old gods evil?

We know that C'thun and Yogg-saron aren't exactly the kind of people you'd invite to a dinner-party (unless you're with the Twilight Cult). The dead one in Darkshore was probably not the nicest one either, since he/she has a massive sword sticking out of him/her.
The odds that one of the old ones aren't evil isn't very large, but it's not impossible, right?
Or are the old gods entities of evil, and the titans are good? I don't think the titans are all that good. They doesn't seem to try and help us in any way against the old gods, nor do they give us any blessings after we've slaid the gods. I mean we're doing the titans one hell of a favour killing, or at least weakening the old gods. Why don't we send a message to the titans saying "Hey, titans! Us mortals over here on Azeroth are cleaning up the mess you created by locking these bastards down underground, which proved to be a rather flawed method. Why don't you guys come over here and help us out or something?"
Sure, the watchers were corrupted, and they wanted to send a message to the titans saying they should destroy Azeroth and start it all over, but then they'd be following the orders of Yogg'saron. Can't we manipulate the message of Algalon and telling the titans that alot of bad shit is going down on Azeroth and ask of their help?
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