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  #26  
Old 10-03-2014, 03:45 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
You know what I'd love to see as a great way to move the story forward?

The Horde has to give up some of its claims in Lordaeron, at least those made during Cataclysm as war reparations.

But not war reparations to the Alliance.

War reparations to the Pandaren. Wouldn't that be interesting? Have the Pandaren build colonies in Gilneas and Hillsbrad?
They'd have to be in control of Gilneas in order to be able to do that.
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2014, 03:52 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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They'd have to be in control of Gilneas in order to be able to do that.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:57 AM
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They'd have to be in control of Gilneas in order to be able to do that.
Just like the US was in control of western territories when we set them aside for Indian reservations, right?
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2014, 04:02 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Just like the US was in control of western territories when we set them aside for Indian reservations, right?
Completely different situation. Unlike the natives, the Alliance can defend itself against such moves.
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  #30  
Old 10-03-2014, 04:03 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Completely different situation. Unlike the natives, the Alliance can defend itself against such moves.
I play Alliance and my impression is the Alliance has not proven very adept at defending itself during the Third War.
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:26 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
I play Alliance and my impression is the Alliance has not proven very adept at defending itself during the Third War.
Considering the Alliance's power, they'd be the ones running the show in any peace conference. It'd be silly if they allowed Omacron's proposed solution to happen.

Anyways, regarding your question, yes and no. Officially, Stormwind should honor the peace, which Blizzard oddly calls a ceasefire, and leave the Forsaken holdings well alone. Unofficially, they should help fund any promising private enterprises that have the goal of reclaiming Lordaeron. If Thrall cries foul, Varian can simply return the excuses Thrall offered when orcs were slaughtering druids in Ashenvale.

I could also see Varian fund Forsaken rebels, in order to destabilise Sylvanas's leadership.

Last edited by Nazja; 10-03-2014 at 05:30 AM..
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Considering the Alliance's power, they'd be the ones running the show in any peace conference. It'd be silly if they allowed Omacron's proposed solution to happen.

Anyways, regarding your question, yes and no. Officially, Stormwind should honor the peace, which Blizzard oddly calls a ceasefire, and leave the Forsaken holdings well alone. Unofficially, they should help fund any promising private enterprises that have the goal of reclaiming Lordaeron. If Thrall cries foul, Varian can simply return the excuses Thrall offered when orcs were slaughtering druids in Ashenvale.

I could also see Varian fund Forsaken rebels, in order to destabilise Sylvanas's leadership.
Why would Thrall cry foul? Vol'jin is the Warqueef of the Horde. I don't know if Thrall holds any official position anymore or if he's as neutral as Tirion.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:33 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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On a serious note, am I missing lore?

Where's the idea coming the Alliance totally outclasses the Horde in every way coming from?

They lost one of their nations to the Scourge, Alterac is a non-contributing one, Kul-Tiras is gone drifiting, the Elves went Horde, and now Theramore is gone. Stormwind and Dalaran are the only contributing members of the Old Alliance now amongst the human nations.

The Night Elves, Worgen, and Draenei are relatively small groups.

The Horde was able to fight the full-powered Alliance to a stand-still when it was just the orcs and it's grown a lot since then.
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  #34  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:34 AM
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Why would Thrall cry foul? Vol'jin is the Warqueef of the Horde. I don't know if Thrall holds any official position anymore or if he's as neutral as Tirion.
He's meddlesome, whenever it suits him.

Stop Garrosh? Nah, too much trouble.

Make a scene to make Varian look bad? Sure, not like he has to do more than talk.
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  #35  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
On a serious note, am I missing lore?

Where's the idea coming the Alliance totally outclasses the Horde in every way coming from?

They lost one of their nations to the Scourge, Alterac is a non-contributing one, Kul-Tiras is gone drifiting, the Elves went Horde, and now Theramore is gone. Stormwind and Dalaran are the only contributing members of the Old Alliance now amongst the human nations.

The Night Elves, Worgen, and Draenei are relatively small groups.

The Horde was able to fight the full-powered Alliance to a stand-still when it was just the orcs and it's grown a lot since then.
I believe it's stated in War Crimes that Garrosh's war machine and subsequent rebellion by the rest of the Horde has greatly diminished its war-making capabilities and probably also ruined its economy (building the Underhold in a year could not fucking be cheap).
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  #36  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:51 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I believe it's stated in War Crimes that Garrosh's war machine and subsequent rebellion by the rest of the Horde has greatly diminished its war-making capabilities and probably also ruined its economy (building the Underhold in a year could not fucking be cheap).
Well that makes sense.

Of course, I always figured the Horde was effectively the Soviet Union anyway.

Able to match the Alliance militarily but only because so many orcs and others were warriors.

Their economy, by contrast, looks to be crap.
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  #37  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:02 AM
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You know what would also be neat? If Alliance members infiltrated the Argent Crusade and forced them to finally engage Sylvanas. If a few good paladins have to die in order to so discord, ao be it.
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  #38  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:09 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
On a serious note, am I missing lore?

Where's the idea coming the Alliance totally outclasses the Horde in every way coming from?

They lost one of their nations to the Scourge, Alterac is a non-contributing one, Kul-Tiras is gone drifiting, the Elves went Horde, and now Theramore is gone. Stormwind and Dalaran are the only contributing members of the Old Alliance now amongst the human nations.

The Night Elves, Worgen, and Draenei are relatively small groups.

The Horde was able to fight the full-powered Alliance to a stand-still when it was just the orcs and it's grown a lot since then.
Plenty of Orcs died in that war also.
The Blood Elves lost 90% of their population and a further 1% became High Elves.
Darkspear are one tribe. Even the High Elves probably outnumber them.
Tauren were never the most numerous race given they were on the verge of being wiped out by the Centuar.
The Forsaken consisted of a minority of people who were plagued and raised, albeit reinforced by what few humans remained in Lordaeron towards Cataclysm but even those numbers won't be substantial.
The Bilgewater are one cartel.

The entire theme of the Horde was meant to be "desperate races surviving in an unforgiving world".

Stormwind still apparently has a huge population and afore mentioned 'bankrupt but still fights a world war' (albeit down to shitty writing)
Ironforge hadn't even been putting their full backing into the war and have not suffered any major population losses in hundreds of years. They came out of the Second War remarkable well, and are now reinforced by two whole kingdoms who similarly had been doing well for themselves.
The Night Elves were IMMORTAL which even with a low-birth rate would lead to a massive population. They are definitely not small.
The Draenei- well, alright, they're not numerous.
The Gilneans were another kingdom to add to the mix. Of course they've suffered horrible losses as well.
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  #39  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:19 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Good points, though a couple of notes.

Quote:
Darkspear are one tribe. Even the High Elves probably outnumber them.
The Darkspear are one tribe but Vol'Jin: Shadows of the Horde points out there's like five or six tribes total in the Troll race. The tribes are the former Castes of the Zandaler Empire rather than just little clans. So, the Darkspears are more a nation of the Troll race than House Stark.

Quote:
Stormwind still apparently has a huge population and afore mentioned 'bankrupt but still fights a world war' (albeit down to shitty writing)
That is pretty damn weird. They must be running at a deficit and borrowed some serious cash.

Still, nations can and have used wars to default creditors plus raise taxes.

Quote:
The Night Elves were IMMORTAL which even with a low-birth rate would lead to a massive population. They are definitely not small.
As stupid as this was, weren't there literally no births in this entire time due to the Night Elf men being in the Emerald Dream? I have to wonder how they got by with 10,000 years of no sex.

(Presumably a lot of visiting the local other forest men)

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The Forsaken consisted of a minority of people who were plagued and raised, albeit reinforced by what few humans remained in Lordaeron towards Cataclysm but even those numbers won't be substantial.
Well, it was a zombie apocalypse so those that broke free could still be like a fourth of the nation there. Arthas eradicated the majority of Lordaeron's population that Jaina didn't rescue.

He also had no reason not to raise any in any form of fighting condition.
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Last edited by Charles Phipps; 10-03-2014 at 06:28 AM..
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  #40  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:27 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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The troll types are the former castes, not the tribes. The jungle trolls are the decendants of a former caste, and the Darkspear are only one of the weakest jungle troll tribes. At least, they used to be one of the weakest.
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  #41  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:30 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
The troll types are the former castes, not the tribes. The jungle trolls are the decendants of a former caste, and the Darkspear are only one of the weakest jungle troll tribes. At least, they used to be one of the weakest.
Well, the Darkspears treated as a group which couldn't possibly stand up to Garrosh in the aforementioned book but they're treated as a group which is terrifying and powerful in the Troll nation. One that the Zandalar would elevate to their right hands if they were recruited.

So there's been some retconning.

It's also possible all of the Jungle Trolls have since joined the Darkspears.

Were I making an estimate, I'd put the Trolls around Alternac level or a small human nation.

I will admit, however, Blizzard pretty obviously has as many Alliance and Horde as there need to be for their plots.
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Last edited by Charles Phipps; 10-03-2014 at 06:32 AM..
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  #42  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:32 AM
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It's also possible all of the Jungle Trolls have since joined the Darkspears.
While that's not without precedent (the Shatterspear in Cataclysm, though they didn't join the Darkspear but the Horde), it's unlikely. All the jungle trolls hated the Darkspear and vice versa.
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  #43  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:35 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Just like the US was in control of western territories when we set them aside for Indian reservations, right?
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  #44  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:58 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Well, the Darkspears treated as a group which couldn't possibly stand up to Garrosh in the aforementioned book but they're treated as a group which is terrifying and powerful in the Troll nation. One that the Zandalar would elevate to their right hands if they were recruited.

So there's been some retconning.

It's also possible all of the Jungle Trolls have since joined the Darkspears.

Were I making an estimate, I'd put the Trolls around Alternac level or a small human nation.

I will admit, however, Blizzard pretty obviously has as many Alliance and Horde as there need to be for their plots.
I think that's meant to be on the spiritual level and not really a measure of their numbers. They are powerful because they have the favour of the Loa, and unlike the other non-Zandalari, kept the traditions, having true Shadow Hunters.

Anyways, as far back as ToT, the other jungle trolls were still the enemies of the Darkspear, having united once more under the Gurubashi banner.
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  #45  
Old 10-03-2014, 08:04 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
You know what I'd love to see as a great way to move the story forward?

The Horde has to give up some of its claims in Lordaeron, at least those made during Cataclysm as war reparations.

But not war reparations to the Alliance.

War reparations to the Pandaren. Wouldn't that be interesting? Have the Pandaren build colonies in Gilneas and Hillsbrad?


Fuck no. The Pandaren don't deserve shit outside of their own continent. Let the fat bastards rot there with their useless hippy dippy 'peace man' shit.

OP, you made several incorrect assumptions in your idea. First, that the rest of the Horde would support the forsaken. The Blood elves would have a very high chance of -not- helping the forsaken. In all likelihood, they would sit on the sidelines for this and turtle. There aren't enough Darkspear to make any difference even if that entire tribe helped the forsaken. The Darkaspear have never been what you call numerous. The tauren have no real reason to care either. The forsaken are destructive to the earth. They plague and blight it badly, raise people into undead whether they want it or not (usually not since they don;t ask the living before killing them and raising them), they engage in a cultural system of cruelty and sadistic torture with also includes mind control either by magical means or invasive surgery. The tauren would/should like to see that destruction ended, not to mention seeing the abomination of undead being ended as well. That seriously messes with the cycle of life and it's notable that Blizzard has the tauren and druids and shaman ignoring that for game play reasons.

The Ebon Blade would probably help the Alliance and once the forsaken start throwing blight/plague all over the place and mass rezzing people, the Argents would pile in on the Alliance's side too. sometimes fighting fire with fire, in this case, using Scourge methods isn't a good idea.


Another thing is that the Alliance wouldn't have to even start any fighting. All it would need to do is arrive en mass in Stromgarde and Gilneas and start reclaiming those lands. They could petition the EB to settle the Scarlet Enclave (and likely get permission since the EB doesn't need that land), and Sylvanas, being the paranoid bitch she is, would do [u[something[/u]. Likely go into another 'all of Lordaeron is forsaken now and forever!' or something like that and this time mean the continent. She'd either send in forces to start aggressing the Alliance positions and/or send in assassin types to try and trim down the Alliance forces, using poisons, knives, blight. Something like that. And if the Alliance hasn't made any move to/against the forsaken, that would be a perfectly legitimate reason to invade. After all, just having significant military forces in the area isn't any reason for Sylvanas to attack the Alliance. Any war that starts between the Alliance and forsaken will be started by the forsaken.

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As stupid as this was, weren't there literally no births in this entire time due to the Night Elf men being in the Emerald Dream? I have to wonder how they got by with 10,000 years of no sex.

(Presumably a lot of visiting the local other forest men)
No they had sex and children. Most of the Night elves were born after the Sundering as the older ones died off due to accidents and being killed in battle and such. They would have had sex with each other (lesbians and gays) and with each other (female/male). Only a tiny percentage of the men were in the Emerald Dream since only a tiny tiny percentage of men were druids. It was never all men. So there would have been plenty of men around for women to have sex with and have children.
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  #46  
Old 10-03-2014, 09:45 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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  #47  
Old 10-03-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
You know what I'd love to see as a great way to move the story forward?

The Horde has to give up some of its claims in Lordaeron, at least those made during Cataclysm as war reparations.

But not war reparations to the Alliance.

War reparations to the Pandaren. Wouldn't that be interesting? Have the Pandaren build colonies in Gilneas and Hillsbrad?
You do remember that the Gilneans exist, right? Or have you adopted Blizzard's policy to pretend they don't exist?
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  #48  
Old 10-03-2014, 10:19 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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You do remember that the Gilneans exist, right? Or have you adopted Blizzard's policy to pretend they don't exist?
By right of conquest that land belongs to the sheep.

Unbeknownst to the rest of the world, after the Alliance and Horde abandoned it the Gilnean sheep engaged in their own aggressive campaign, wiping out the local crocolisks, spiders, elk and ogres in their bid for dominance.

And that's why the sheep are the only living things left in Gilneas.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:23 AM
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Oh, Lore sub-forum, how I missed you.
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  #50  
Old 10-03-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
By right of conquest that land belongs to the sheep.

Unbeknownst to the rest of the world, after the Alliance and Horde abandoned it the Gilnean sheep engaged in their own aggressive campaign, wiping out the local crocolisks, spiders, elk and ogres in their bid for dominance.

And that's why the sheep are the only living things left in Gilneas.
By virtue of ARM's Law, this is now to be considered canon.
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