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  #51  
Old 10-03-2014, 10:52 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
By right of conquest that land belongs to the sheep.

Unbeknownst to the rest of the world, after the Alliance and Horde abandoned it the Gilnean sheep engaged in their own aggressive campaign, wiping out the local crocolisks, spiders, elk and ogres in their bid for dominance.

And that's why the sheep are the only living things left in Gilneas.
They share great tenacity taught by the noble Gilnean farmers that raised them.
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  #52  
Old 10-03-2014, 10:56 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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By right of conquest that land belongs to the sheep.

Unbeknownst to the rest of the world, after the Alliance and Horde abandoned it the Gilnean sheep engaged in their own aggressive campaign, wiping out the local crocolisks, spiders, elk and ogres in their bid for dominance.

And that's why the sheep are the only living things left in Gilneas.
Sheepen for the Horde confirmed next expansion. The cursed sheep of Gilneas turn into a race of Forsaken Bloodelven Sheep creatures. The result of an early foray into Artiodactyla polymorph magic gone wrong, they have doomed themselves into a third bloodelf, third forsaken third sheep monstrosity. Locked away in the emerald dream all this time was the little utilized druid sheep form, it was restored to it's former glory by in Warcraft 3 where the bloodelves were driven by Othmar Garithos as lambs to the slaughter, the few remaining bloodelven sheep druids secreted away their powers surviving the onslaught. The bloodelves fighting along side the Forsaken in Gilneas tried to turn the tide against the wooly assault, and while in sheep form, were poly morphed by the sheep and transformed into undead, elven sheep monstrosities, this curse has now spread to Kul'Tiras, their new starting zone by sheer luck.

Racial ability is "Bleet", where in the Sheepen falls to the ground bleeting.
They have two forms, one being a sheep the other Sheepen.
And the racial mount is Plains Grazing, it reduces movement speed by 100.

Classes: Rogue, Paladin, Druid, Shaman, Priest, Warlock, Monk, Deathknight and Mage.
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  #53  
Old 10-03-2014, 10:57 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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but what will the black sheep say about this unjust white sheep bias?
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  #54  
Old 10-03-2014, 10:58 AM
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but what will the black sheep say about this unjust white sheep bias?
All sheep is Sheepen sheep.

#savage.
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  #55  
Old 10-03-2014, 11:25 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Of course the Alliance should. Burn the entire continent in purging fires until not a single strain or cell exist of the undead. Rebuild from the ashes.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:57 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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How's about alliance gets upper and horde lower and we fill it with friendship bracelet crafting and basket weaving dailies
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  #57  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:06 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Devil's advocate mode: INITIALIZED

By this point, I'm not exactly sure what the point of conquering Lordaeron'd be. The refugees in Theramore got blown up, the refugees in Stormwind have integrated to the extent they are invisible, and anyone truly desperate to take back Lordaeron got killed in the western plaguelands or is living in Argentinia. There is no apparent Lordaeron government-in-exile to restore to the throne. The land is sick and infested. The only gains from an invasion would be a big ton of dead soil, a lot of goop and some nice historical ruins. I'm not entirely sure you'd be able to convince the leaders of the alliance to invest their armies in a continent-wide military operation for that.



Real opinion: Honestly, I'm sick and tired of fighting undead in Lordaeron. We've done it in WCIII, TFT, Vanilla, TBC, WotLK and Cata, and all the fun to be had in it has slowly dripped away. Can't we go plunder ancient highborne ruins to restore the ancient throne of the harpy queen, or something more exotic like that? We've got a big world, there's gotta be more than whacking zombies.
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  #58  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:06 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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How's about alliance gets upper and horde lower and we fill it with friendship bracelet crafting and basket weaving dailies
Go home Anduin, you're drunk.

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Devil's advocate mode: INITIALIZED

By this point, I'm not exactly sure what the point of conquering Lordaeron'd be.
Removing the Forsaken as a threat.

Also, the Plaguelands were in a worse state than Tiristfal and they're turning out pretty well.
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  #59  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:35 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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I will say that it's hard to take the Forsaken seriously, lore-wise as a bunch of misguided victims who are basically the same people they were before the whole Scourge came down on their heads only they no longer look human, breathe, eat, or defecate. One of the big appeals of World of Warcraft for me was that it turned the traditional Dungeons and Dragons racial essentialism element on its head. Trolls and Orcs were people like any others, Forsaken were victims of a disease rather than evil, and so on. It was kind of a funny joke the most genuinely evil part of the Horde were the elves who were the most physically beautiful.

This is a message which is undermined by all the relentless dog-kicking they have members of the Forsaken doing. I don't mind Sylvanas being evil or the Royal Apothecary Society (which is an awful name for a villainous group) but where are the damned big ass Forsaken heroes? Barring the PC, I can't think of any who are showing the world they're every bit as good as anyone else. It's also hard to justify them as a group which should have sympathy when they're causally supporting Sylvanas' war of doomTM on other people. Sylvanas can't do anything without the support of her people anymore than Garrosh and they're not extensions of her will.

I'd like to see some more proactive Forsaken characters who are on the side of the angels. We've got a whole organization of good-aligned undead in the Knights of the Ebon Blade (or anti-heroes at least) so it shouldn't be too hard to create some more for Undercity. For me, the Forsaken wouldn't have to go far to redeem much of their reputation (though, Gilneas is a big-big issue and why I think Sylvanas SHOULD be a raid boss).

In my mind, the Forsaken *are* the people of Lordaeron. The sole survivors of it at this point. It's their land, homeland, and territory which foreign invaders want to take over. The thing is, aside from the Scarlet Crusade, nobody has actually tried to destroy the Forsaken so the fear of genocide angle rings a bit hollow.
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  #60  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:11 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
I will say that it's hard to take the Forsaken seriously, lore-wise as a bunch of misguided victims who are basically the same people they were before the whole Scourge came down on their heads only they no longer look human, breathe, eat, or defecate. One of the big appeals of World of Warcraft for me was that it turned the traditional Dungeons and Dragons racial essentialism element on its head. Trolls and Orcs were people like any others, Forsaken were victims of a disease rather than evil, and so on. It was kind of a funny joke the most genuinely evil part of the Horde were the elves who were the most physically beautiful.

This is a message which is undermined by all the relentless dog-kicking they have members of the Forsaken doing. I don't mind Sylvanas being evil or the Royal Apothecary Society (which is an awful name for a villainous group) but where are the damned big ass Forsaken heroes? Barring the PC, I can't think of any who are showing the world they're every bit as good as anyone else. It's also hard to justify them as a group which should have sympathy when they're causally supporting Sylvanas' war of doomTM on other people. Sylvanas can't do anything without the support of her people anymore than Garrosh and they're not extensions of her will.

I'd like to see some more proactive Forsaken characters who are on the side of the angels. We've got a whole organization of good-aligned undead in the Knights of the Ebon Blade (or anti-heroes at least) so it shouldn't be too hard to create some more for Undercity. For me, the Forsaken wouldn't have to go far to redeem much of their reputation (though, Gilneas is a big-big issue and why I think Sylvanas SHOULD be a raid boss).

In my mind, the Forsaken *are* the people of Lordaeron. The sole survivors of it at this point. It's their land, homeland, and territory which foreign invaders want to take over. The thing is, aside from the Scarlet Crusade, nobody has actually tried to destroy the Forsaken so the fear of genocide angle rings a bit hollow.


The last part is only partially incorrect (Fojar would say it's all incorrect, but that's him) in that the forsaken do not have a claim to all of Lordaeron (the kingdom, not the continent). To part of it yes, but they do not have a valid claim to all of it. Why? Because there's still living Lordaeron citizens in the lands of Lordaeron. Who you say? The Argent Dawn/Crusade. Remember it split off from the Scarlets and was composed solely of Lordaeron citizens at the first. They never left Lordaeron, they never abandoned the idea of retaking their homeland and unlike the forsaken who DID die and were enslaved by the Lich King, they are actively cleansing it so it will be once again a safe place to live.

So no the forsaken don't have any valid claim to Lordaeron beyond what they got. Their 'claim' is no more valid than anyone else's. In fact you could argue their claim is invalid because they are working to make the contagion worse (Gilneas, Southshore, Western Plaguelands) and the way they've gone about it; plaguing and invading the lands of two essentially neutral nations (Gilneas and Argent land) and wiping out the last part of Lordaeron that wasn't tainted or destroyed are big strikes against the forsaken being listed as Good Guys just defending their lands. With the forsaken, sooner than later, they will affect their neighbors and attack them on specious reasons.

Stromgarde is a good example. Sylvanas feels she has a claim to that land because she had the last prince raised -after- he was killed by Horde. She seems to feel that the undead have a greater claim than any living do. So she was/is pushing Galen to reclaim his throne. Unfortunately for her he doesn't want it. He never did want to be the prince and it seems like he'd rather not try to reclaim it now that he's undead. Especially since under Stromgarde law, he'd have lost any such claim anyways when he died. It would have already passed onto someone else within hours of his death.

For many players it would take a lot for the forsaken to really redeem themselves. Especially since we know Blizzard would half ass it and screw up the redemption (something involving killing Alliance or neutral NPCs) that we'd be expected to smile and wave pleasantly as our asses are being reamed out with a wire brush. The forsaken would be forgive and mean it this time (fourth or sixth times the charm, right?). That's Blizzard's idea of a good story nowadays.
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  #61  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:46 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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In my mind, the Forsaken *are* the people of Lordaeron.
You have bad lore opinions.
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  #62  
Old 10-03-2014, 04:51 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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For many players it would take a lot for the forsaken to really redeem themselves. Especially since we know Blizzard would half ass it and screw up the redemption (something involving killing Alliance or neutral NPCs) that we'd be expected to smile and wave pleasantly as our asses are being reamed out with a wire brush. The forsaken would be forgive and mean it this time (fourth or sixth times the charm, right?). That's Blizzard's idea of a good story nowadays.
Yeah, I liked Sylvanas' character as much as anybody but after her recent actions, it's hard to consider as anything but worse than Arthas. You can't come back from inflicting the curse your entire existence is defined by the horror of on massive numbers of innocents who did nothing to you in the first place.
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:24 PM
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You have bad lore opinions.
You should just make a FAQ about Lordaeron.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #64  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:28 PM
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Of course the Alliance should. Burn the entire continent in purging fires until not a single strain or cell exist of the undead. Rebuild from the ashes.
Sometimes I imagine the Gnomes and Draenei creating this device that shoots out pure, concentrated Light. Living creatures that are hit by it are healed of all injuries and bathed in the warmth of the Holy Light. Undead hit by it are incinerated instantly. I dream of great waves of Light covering Lordaeron, simultaneously eradicating the undead and healing all living beings.
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  #65  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:37 PM
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Sometimes I imagine the Gnomes and Draenei creating this device that shoots out pure, concentrated Light. Living creatures that are hit by it are healed of all injuries and bathed in the warmth of the Holy Light. Undead hit by it are incinerated instantly. I dream of great waves of Light covering Lordaeron, simultaneously eradicating the undead and healing all living beings.
The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
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  #66  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:37 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Well, the Argent Crusade already uses cannons that shoot Light shells.
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  #67  
Old 10-03-2014, 05:38 PM
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Go home Anduin, you're drunk.


Removing the Forsaken as a threat.

Also, the Plaguelands were in a worse state than Tiristfal and they're turning out pretty well.
I'm honestly not that surprised that they've made plenty of headway in regards to the Western Plaguelands; it wasn't in the most awful of conditions even back in Vanilla. Now, the Eastern Plaguelands... outside of maybe the immediate areas around the four towers and Light's Hope (and that's from me trying to remember if they still looked kinda plagued or not), have they really made any progress there?

Maybe they should borrow some of the flamethrowers that the Horde was using in Stonetalon to clear out the giant mushrooms.
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  #68  
Old 10-03-2014, 06:01 PM
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The Alliance should just poison Tirion's whine and accuse the Forsaken to have them killed. There you go, the Alliance gets back Lordaeron and the Forsaken fanboys get a real reason to call them "misunderstood" and "victims".


But seriously, the Alliance should do it but the only way to have it happen would either be in Warcraft 4 or an hypothetical Lordaeron expansion in an instanced version of the continent (kinda like how we have two Draenors now).
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:03 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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You do remember that the Gilneans exist, right? Or have you adopted Blizzard's policy to pretend they don't exist?
Keep in mind he said non-Alliance. Gilneans are, for worse, Alliance, and thus don't get good things from the Horde. Not even a bone!
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 10-04-2014, 01:36 AM
Melisande Melisande is offline

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It seems I missed one of my favorite topics.

To wit one thing I want to address is the importance of the narrative well...addressing these issues. Even if you yell GAMEPLAY in me til you're blue in the face, one no it's not, there can be gameplay work arounds but Blizzard doesn't want to advance the effort in doing so. Fair enough some might say, but it could easily be done.

The important thing is that the only reason the Alliance does nothing is because of outside meta narrative concerns. That's it. The Forsaken and the Scourge did more than kill the humans, they hurt them. And then kept on hurting them. And while the Scourge did get their comeuppance, the Forsaken got forgotten, and the writers tried to shift any anger against them onto the orcs, erroneously. Which left fans of Lordaeron feeling impotent because the issue was never resolved or addressed.

I realize I'm probably rambling so, but please bear with me. The loss of Lordaeron, and honestly most of the old Seven Kingdoms should bear heavily on the Alliance, and the humans especially. They just lived through a zombie apocalypse. Any new found optimism of those in Theramore who thought they could live with the Horde and start a new future pretty quickly turned out to be false hopes. The fact that the narrative doesn't address that Stormwind is the last bastion of humanity in any real way is a weakness. That should hang over every action that Stormwind makes in the narrative but it doesn't. Now WoW has never been good at consequences with actions, but that should be a major theme of humanity and it would easily work to make them not bland boring milquetoast humans.

Secondly beyond that, the loss of Lordaeron is personal for many major human characters. Varian grew up there with Arthas. His people were sheltered at Southshore. This isn't just a case of the king of England going to take back France from the Muslims. This is the king of England who was friends with the king of France, seeing that kingdom destroyed by something entirely other worldly. That they aren't fighting back is absurd.

So while I know that Lordaeron will never be in Alliance hands again, the effort should be made. Stormgarde should be retaken, the Thoradin wall rebuilt and manned. Humanity needs to react to this entire mess in a realistic manner, rather than looking north and shrugging and going 'meh'.
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  #71  
Old 10-04-2014, 03:27 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Melisande, thank you for your post.

On my end, I created this topic with the idea of tackling the subject of Lordaeron from an Out-Of-Game perspective. Basically, not whether Blizzard ever WILL resolve the Lordaeron issue but whether they should resolve the Lordaeron issue. It was an attempt by me to get into the nitty-gritty of the Alliance, its values, and what sort of emotional resonance the nation has versus the loyalty they may or may not feel for their fellow thinking beings.

I admit to being an unbashed Warcraft 3 fanboy and that its message of tolerance and grudging cooperation really resounded with me. So much so that I consider it an influence on my life, writing, and values. Not perhaps as much as Star Wars but it was something that I really was affected by.

I think I liked it because Warcraft 3 didn't sugar coat it. Lots of works can say, "racism is bad, m'kay" but Warcaft 3 showed that racism in the worst places in the world isn't something which exists in a vacuum. It felt authentic because there's deep emotional scars and lasting damage which isn't going to be something you can just wash away.

The Alliance and the Horde must eventually learn to co-exist or, bluntly, they don't deserve to live when the Burning Crusade returns. It's not a case of moral equivalence but a simple acknowledgement that the sins of the past and vengeance for them will only lead to the end of everyone. As much as I disliked Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde's naval gazing, there's a lot to be said that the worst thing in Warcraft is people's refusal to let go of the past.
And yet, Lordaeron is a big sucking wound.

I admit part of my sympathy for the Forsaken comes from viewing things metaphorically rather than literally. There's plenty of things they can serve as a metaphor for, from gays to those suffering from disease. Whatever the case, they were citizens of the Alliance who suddenly found themselves outcasts. It's interesting that Varian is trying to welcome the Blood Elves back to the Alliance but he's announced his intentions to drive his fellow humans out of Undercity and retake a nation from them.

And the Forsaken are humans. Just the same as Death Knights.

Yet, I can't say that Varian is in the wrong either because the Forsaken have done countless things in the "name of their oppression" (to quote a cultural studies class). They have killed tens of thousands, spread their disease to others involuntarily, and potentially engaged in a genocide against the citizen of Gilneas.

Those who haven't rose up against Sylvanas retain culpability for her actions and we don't even see any resistance. Which is a shame. The same as Garrosh. I am a die-hard defender of Orcs because they represent the non-white Europeans of the world and serve as a nice contrast to them but those who fought for Garrosh after Theramore are hard to give any consideration. Theramore was a symbol of everything good in humanity.

I hate Stormwind and everything that kingdom stands for, but Orgimmar has become less a city devoted to the redemption of the orcs but instead a symbol of the desire for orc culture to eradicate all those humans willing to live in peace with the Horde.

The Alliance has ample reason to sink to the Horde's level (and it is now a low-low-level) and destroy the Forsaken. They can heinously murder their own brothers, sisters, wives, and husbands because they didn't shoot first and then salt the Earth. Content they were justified.

But if that happens? Does the Alliance deserve to be saved from the Burning Legion? Or are they just a lesser version of it? Just as the Horde has become?
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  #72  
Old 10-04-2014, 11:55 AM
Melisande Melisande is offline

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Oh good my tired ramblings made some sense at least.

Well the debate of 'worthy of survival' is an interesting one, and I mean it makes sense in the Warcraft setting since it tends to stick to high fantasy and have absolute goods and evils. But it gets into the issue of redemption too. I'll come back to that since it covers both the orcs and forsaken. I suppose the question of worth of survival tends to be how your worldview works. I tend to have a more...I guess pessimistic view in that worthy of survival is kind of a moot example. History is filled with those that are, who did not. Survival itself is it's own goal, and there is no intrinsic moral value, beyond the fact that you had the strength, guile, knowledge, cunning, etc. to manage to do so. Labeling it as a good thing or not tends to be come more with how related you are to the group that survived. Are you a member of said group, do you share their values, and so on. You don't have to turn everything super GRRM, but at the end of the day a good story should still respect that, "In the game of thrones, you win or you die."

A quick aside, as a historian I don't think there's much value in comparing things to other real groups, unless again you're doing GRRM the War of the Roses by any other name. To compare the orcs to any invading force, like say the Ottomans vs the Alliance of Byzantium turns into an exaggeration. The orcs have always emphasized their aggression, glory in battle, and honor, while being dumber than the groups that they are compared to. A human society from Earth (without magical druids and shamans who can grow food for you) would not have trouble flourishing in Durotar. Casting the orcs as the eastern other also ignores the fact that in the medieval world the Muslim sheikdoms were far more advanced than Europe, both in terms of literacy, technology and tolerance.

But yes, the sticky issue of the orcs and forsaken being people and having redeemed themselves. Both races have gotten a bad deal, and horrible things happened to them, some more horrible than others. However despite those actions, they then went and did just as villainous acts on others. In the orcs case the demon blood seemed to amplify their aggression and make them tend to view the demons reverently, but even in WC3 onwards, it's never been mind control. (If it was, how could Gul'dan turn against Doomhammer and have the Horde get in a civil war?) In the Forsaken's case, it was, but Sylvanas's actions after being freed show that she's an oathbreaker and has no problem slaughtering an entire army that had been her ally.

Yet both these races claim redemption. They claim they are good guys. In the orcs case they did take a step towards earning that in WC3. But if they want to be redeemed these races have to show that they have changed, and in many cases redemption comes after suffering for their crimes as well. There's a reason Redemption = Death is a trope, it helps the audience buy that this formerly bad character is going so far as to sacrifice their life to make amends, doing that you have to be pretty sincere. In the Forsaken's case they have slid even further into puppy killing evil territory, actively working against their own redemption. The orcs are...a different case. They sometimes do the right thing, yet their larger society in general shows that they haven't changed. The orcs as every bit as blood thirty, as big of warmongers, as they were in WC2. Their society is still all about honor and battle, they name their cities after those who were monsters.

In short if you want me to buy that a character has been redeemed, I have to see a clear distinction between their former and current states. They have to have changed, and that isn't the case here.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:10 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Sometimes I imagine the Gnomes and Draenei creating this device that shoots out pure, concentrated Light. Living creatures that are hit by it are healed of all injuries and bathed in the warmth of the Holy Light. Undead hit by it are incinerated instantly. I dream of great waves of Light covering Lordaeron, simultaneously eradicating the undead and healing all living beings.
Beautiful. This should happen. Light bombs everywhere!

Forsaken aren't human. They ceased to be human when they died. They're reanimated necrotic flesh that should be put back in the ground. The only reason Death Knights should be spared is because they're a special armed force that is focused on destroying the Scourge and battling enemies of their former living selves. Had the Forsaken turned into a group like the Ebon blade and sworn to fight as long as their bodies hold to destroy enemies of Azeroth I'd be less inclined to seek their total destruction. But they have to leave the lands of the living to the living. Lordaeron belongs to the living, not the undead. Lordaeron belongs to the living decendants of Lordaeron.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:42 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Charles, you touched upon something there that irritates a LOT of Alliance players. Every time the Alliance players mention holding the Horde accountable for its actions, many Horde players always bring up the fact the Horde is needed and necessary for Azeroth's survival. That the Alliance cannot bring the Horde to task or Azeroth will fall. So the shield of 'Defender of Azeroth' is used to more or less give the Horde more or less cover to kill as many Alliance as it wants. Every single time this happens, the Horde being allowed to skip out on its crimes while at the same time being allowed to engage in said crimes. The orcs and forsaken are the biggest examples of this and it looks like the forsaken are going to be still allowed to do it.

That's a large part of what has made many Alliance players bitter and angry. It's almost always the Alliance that's told to forgive and forget. Not the Horde, but the Alliance, and these open sores on the lore are left to fester.



With the forsaken, they could wipe out and raise every human north of the Bridge from the Wetlands and you would -still- have forsaken/Horde players defending their actions and saying the Alliance and any neutrals deserved it.
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:21 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Charles, you touched upon something there that irritates a LOT of Alliance players. Every time the Alliance players mention holding the Horde accountable for its actions, many Horde players always bring up the fact the Horde is needed and necessary for Azeroth's survival. That the Alliance cannot bring the Horde to task or Azeroth will fall. So the shield of 'Defender of Azeroth' is used to more or less give the Horde more or less cover to kill as many Alliance as it wants. Every single time this happens, the Horde being allowed to skip out on its crimes while at the same time being allowed to engage in said crimes. The orcs and forsaken are the biggest examples of this and it looks like the forsaken are going to be still allowed to do it.

That's a large part of what has made many Alliance players bitter and angry. It's almost always the Alliance that's told to forgive and forget. Not the Horde, but the Alliance, and these open sores on the lore are left to fester.

With the forsaken, they could wipe out and raise every human north of the Bridge from the Wetlands and you would -still- have forsaken/Horde players defending their actions and saying the Alliance and any neutrals deserved it.
Don't get me wrong, my preferences for the Horde versus Alliance fight have been taken, chopped into pieces, and smashed with a ball-point hammer. I mentioned that the Horde stands in for many non-white, non-European groups but we have what amounts to these very same non-white non-European groups invading the territory of the White Europeans in order to steal their resources. Throw in the fact that the Iron Horde is a bunch of brown people as opposed to Green Ones and the term Unfortunate Implications doesn't quite begin to cut it.

But yes, speaking as someone that likes there being a moral equivalence between the Alliance and the Horde, I'd have to be a complete moron to say that's manifestly not the way the last few expansions have gone.

When people compare Garrosh to Hitler, they were (at first) Godwinning but when you're: A physically weak veteran of a previous war who rises to power on a popular revenge-based platform from a more peaceful leader only to begin targetting minorities before beginning wars of genocide--it's hard to NOT see the parallels.

The Horde supported Garrosh after Theramore, which was Azeroth Alderaan, and you can't really argue that is an unforgivable crime. Theramore was a symbol, to me at least, of the potential peace between orcs and humans. Its destruction hit me harder than any other event in the entirety of the game because it *WAS* the Alliance to me. Stormwind is just this unimportant starting zone for me while, lore-wise, Theramore represented a new beginning created by working in peace with other species for the betterment of all. Retaking Lordaeron was never important to me because Theramore was Lordaeron reborn.

Better and someday stronger.

Knowing what happens to it was a kick in the gut. It's hard to come back from that as without Theramore, I don't really see there being a heart of the Alliance that represents the benefits of peace.

As for your comment regarding the Horde getting defended because they're needed to fight the Burning Crusade, I totally agree. However, the Alliance IS NECESSARY TOO and every time the Horde fights the Alliance it is weakening its own chances of survival.
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Last edited by Charles Phipps; 10-05-2014 at 06:24 PM..
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