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  #76  
Old 01-16-2016, 02:13 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Horde players try to create neutral stories because deep down they know that their faction is fucked, combined with a not insignificant amount of "shit I should have rolled Alliance but I've got 5 Horde toons at cap now"
Even if that's true they're at least TRYING to address the stupid writing. Making a story where YOUR faction always triumphs and the other gets shat on is stupid whether it's in favor of the horde or the alliance. Trying to rewrite it into something more evenhanded is more mature than "let's rewrite the story so my faction always wins." It was stupid when the horde was on top in cataclysm, it would be just as stupid if the alliance got a one sided wankfest.

There was a way to make the faction war work; in the shattering it's mentioned that after the Alliance cut off trade there was widespread starvation. It was also stated that the cataclysm ensured both sides would have to compete for resources. In that case if the orcs follow garrosh it's "shit our situation is bad...oh look this guy proposes a quick and easy solution." Real humans in history have fallen into that trap. Eliminating the mana bomb and having Garrosh slowly fall into madness would make most orcs turning against him more plausible in that they slowly realize they're in danger of becoming the old horde. A few simple changes here and there are all that would be needed.


The reason I mentioned the camps is because they might have been the most humane option at the time, but the policy of punishing children for the sins of their parents (there were at least a few cases when orcs were spit and shat on) is only going to ensure the child grows up with a massive chip on his shoulder and resentment. After the third war the orcs actually WERE minding their own business when Daelin attacked them, which in this case makes Daelin the one in the wrong.


I'm aware of the Horde Bias in Cataclysm; I'm aware that Blizzard did a bad job telling the story they wanted to tell and instead made the orcs have Aesop Amnesia. That doesn't mean that I should gleefully accept it, or try not to look for nuance.
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  #77  
Old 01-16-2016, 02:21 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Actually I partially agree. Internment was the most merciful outcome at the time. The problem was that a lot of the camps were implemented badly (Blackmoore was the main overseer of the entire internment camp experience). Someone pointed out that a lot of corruption was allowed to slide because the camps were kept running cheaply.

In short, right idea, wrong implementation.
One should also keep in mind that technically speaking, Blackmoore was a traitor. His sanctioning of mistreatment was part and parcel of an intent to overthrow the Alliance using Thrall to command the rest of the orcs he'd been having routinely mistreated.

If the rest of the Alliance leaders had actually known the extent of what was going on in the camps - and especially the reasons behind it - they'd have in all likelihood shut Blackmoore down and put someone in charge who wouldn't continue trying to bludgeon the orcs into a mercenary army for use in taking over the Alliance.

The player double standard is high in this case because whenever a Horde antagonist is revealed to be a traitor and does something bad that was built using Horde permissions and resources in the absence of the Horde leadership knowing its true intent, Horde players (and at times the story as well) tend to immediately write him off as "not really Horde" and therefore not really conducive of any guilt on the Horde's part. The procedures in the camps were literally part of a plan for betraying the Alliance, so the same measure of culpability should really apply here.
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  #78  
Old 01-16-2016, 03:25 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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The way I see it, locking orcs up was fine. They were addled by demonic energies and quite bloodthirsty. In fact is is even admirable because they showed mercy even after the Horde showed none (though movie cannon may change that, the orcs not showing any mercy I mean).

But the problem and the bad side of the camps was that they kept them there, apparently indefinitely. There was virtually no attempts to help the orcs or at least the children, only Antonidas did some research and concluded it was too hard and maybe not smart to revitalize the orcs. That imo is the main problem of the camps, keeping prisoners who did nothing wrong along with those who did. Along with an indefinite sentence, it's not right no matter how you look at it.
Add the horrid conditions within the camps, and it's not pretty at all.

But it's also not all dark, it's a quite good example of correctly done gray morality in Warcraft. Humans have their reasons for doing it and they are not completely inexcusable (even those calling for mass executions) and orcs have very legitimate grievances but also a degree of historical revisionism (the "why we got thrown in there in the first place" part).

Taken all together it's certainly one of the darker moments for the Alliance but compared to some of the stuff the Horde did it's pretty lukewarm. So therein lies the problem, it's a bad thing so Horde fans can legitimately gripe but compared to Horde atrocities it seems negligible to Alliance fans and so both sides feel justified, queue shitfest.

My thoughts anyway.

EDIT: This is also a serious derailment, maybe move this to the faction thread?

Last edited by C9H20; 01-16-2016 at 03:27 PM..
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  #79  
Old 01-16-2016, 04:03 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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So, uh...

How 'bout that Forsaken leveling, ah?
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  #80  
Old 01-16-2016, 04:22 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
The way I see it, locking orcs up was fine. They were addled by demonic energies and quite bloodthirsty. In fact is is even admirable because they showed mercy even after the Horde showed none (though movie cannon may change that, the orcs not showing any mercy I mean).

But the problem and the bad side of the camps was that they kept them there, apparently indefinitely. There was virtually no attempts to help the orcs or at least the children, only Antonidas did some research and concluded it was too hard and maybe not smart to revitalize the orcs. That imo is the main problem of the camps, keeping prisoners who did nothing wrong along with those who did. Along with an indefinite sentence, it's not right no matter how you look at it.
Add the horrid conditions within the camps, and it's not pretty at all.

But it's also not all dark, it's a quite good example of correctly done gray morality in Warcraft. Humans have their reasons for doing it and they are not completely inexcusable (even those calling for mass executions) and orcs have very legitimate grievances but also a degree of historical revisionism (the "why we got thrown in there in the first place" part).

Taken all together it's certainly one of the darker moments for the Alliance but compared to some of the stuff the Horde did it's pretty lukewarm. So therein lies the problem, it's a bad thing so Horde fans can legitimately gripe but compared to Horde atrocities it seems negligible to Alliance fans and so both sides feel justified, queue shitfest.

My thoughts anyway.

EDIT: This is also a serious derailment, maybe move this to the faction thread?
That....pretty much sums it up beautifully.

1.) By butting the orcs who weren't actually part of the second war in the camp and subjecting them to the same punishment as the ones who actually DID commit atrocities, they pretty much gaurenteed that the younger generation of orcs would have a massive resentment towards the alliance. If the treatment had been limited TO THOSE WHO HAD PARTAKEN IN THE SECOND WAR than things would be a lot less of an issue. I've seen people condemn the camps and flat out say that the second war orcs deserved death and more. But by punishing the innocent with the guilty they helped create the seeds that someone like Garrosh could exploit.

2.) Daelin: At the time the orcs really were giving the "give peace a chance" thing ago. They were building a civilization, they were trading with Theramoore. In this case they were actually just minding their own business for once.

3.) Thrall; it wasn't JUST the fact that he was raised by humans that made him a functioning human. It was the fact that some of the humans were NICE. While people like Blackmoore treated him like garbage, there were people like Taretha and Seargent who treated him with dignity and respect
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  #81  
Old 01-16-2016, 05:14 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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I'm pretty sure Daelin's forces were attacking the Orcs even before he knew about Theramore weren't they?

I mean the last they'd have heard was that Thrall's Orcs VIOLENTLY slaughtered the garrison of an interment camp, freed a known war criminal (Grom), and nicked a bunch of ships to escape the mainland. Next thing you know, they're building their own kingdom across the ocean. For all he could have known, they were rebuilding and regrouping for another invasion.

Should he have stopped once he found out the truth? Well, yeah, probably.
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  #82  
Old 01-17-2016, 06:31 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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How many times do we have to go through this shit? I thought this thread was going to be interesting and fun, watching Fojar level through the Forsaken zones...

But no, some fuckwit just had to go ruin the fun by turning the thread into a bad acid flashback.
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  #83  
Old 01-17-2016, 08:25 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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How many times do we have to go through this shit? I thought this thread was going to be interesting and fun, watching Fojar level through the Forsaken zones...

But no, some fuckwit just had to go ruin the fun by turning the thread into a bad acid flashback.
Well the Forsaken-Fojar posts stopped, so.
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  #84  
Old 01-17-2016, 08:27 AM
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  #85  
Old 01-17-2016, 09:58 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Well the Forsaken-Fojar posts stopped, so.
I thought that the thread would sit idle until I was ready to continue, I didn't expect someone to inexplicably drop a steaming turd into it.
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  #86  
Old 01-17-2016, 11:18 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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That....pretty much sums it up beautifully.

1.) By butting the orcs who weren't actually part of the second war in the camp and subjecting them to the same punishment as the ones who actually DID commit atrocities, they pretty much gaurenteed that the younger generation of orcs would have a massive resentment towards the alliance. If the treatment had been limited TO THOSE WHO HAD PARTAKEN IN THE SECOND WAR than things would be a lot less of an issue. I've seen people condemn the camps and flat out say that the second war orcs deserved death and more. But by punishing the innocent with the guilty they helped create the seeds that someone like Garrosh could exploit.

2.) Daelin: At the time the orcs really were giving the "give peace a chance" thing ago. They were building a civilization, they were trading with Theramoore. In this case they were actually just minding their own business for once.

3.) Thrall; it wasn't JUST the fact that he was raised by humans that made him a functioning human. It was the fact that some of the humans were NICE. While people like Blackmoore treated him like garbage, there were people like Taretha and Seargent who treated him with dignity and respect
You keep harping on about there being orcs in the camps who weren't part of the war. The orcs were a colonizing invasion force. Every Orc that crossed over was part of the war.
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  #87  
Old 01-17-2016, 12:10 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Yoggy is right though.
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  #88  
Old 01-17-2016, 12:27 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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You keep harping on about there being orcs in the camps who weren't part of the war. The orcs were a colonizing invasion force. Every Orc that crossed over was part of the war.
Did they all rape people, destroy houses, kill people? No. Only the adults did. The children born during the war did nothing. Nor did the children in the camps. That's what I meant by punishing the innocent with the guilty. The ones who committed the crimes could have been punished and no one would bat an eyebrow. When we defeated the nazis we punished those who committed atrocities; the average german who didn't join the military shouldn't have been punished for the crimes of the rest of the country (yelled at and forced to face that they had voted such monsters into power? Absolutely. Beaten? No.)
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  #89  
Old 01-17-2016, 01:11 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Yoggy is right though.
Do we need someone to make an Orc thread? If I still played wow I could.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #90  
Old 01-17-2016, 01:27 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Did they all rape people, destroy houses, kill people? No. Only the adults did. The children born during the war did nothing. Nor did the children in the camps. That's what I meant by punishing the innocent with the guilty. The ones who committed the crimes could have been punished and no one would bat an eyebrow. When we defeated the nazis we punished those who committed atrocities; the average german who didn't join the military shouldn't have been punished for the crimes of the rest of the country (yelled at and forced to face that they had voted such monsters into power? Absolutely. Beaten? No.)
So if the Forsaken are Lordaeron then why aren't you getting mad at them for the internment camps
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  #91  
Old 01-17-2016, 01:31 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
Did they all rape people, destroy houses, kill people? No. Only the adults did. The children born during the war did nothing. Nor did the children in the camps. That's what I meant by punishing the innocent with the guilty. The ones who committed the crimes could have been punished and no one would bat an eyebrow. When we defeated the nazis we punished those who committed atrocities; the average german who didn't join the military shouldn't have been punished for the crimes of the rest of the country (yelled at and forced to face that they had voted such monsters into power? Absolutely. Beaten? No.)
You cannot compare the orcs to German Nazis in this analogy. You can compare them to the Nazis who invaded, conquered and colonized central and Eastern Europe as part of the Lebensraum policy. The Germans in Germany stayed put and theoretically could go about WWII without harming people; a clockmaker in Frankfurt doesn't even necessarily contribute to the Nazi war machine, but a German colonist clockmaker in Warsaw would be doing so at the expense of an expelled or marginalized native.

When liberated by the allies, would it be unreasonable to deport German colonists, including children they had while there? I don't think so. The issue is that there was no "Germany" for the orcs; it was an inaccessible land on another fucking planet.
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  #92  
Old 01-17-2016, 10:45 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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So if the Forsaken are Lordaeron then why aren't you getting mad at them for the internment camps
He doesn't want to admit that the Horde is responsible for placing the Horde in the internment camps.
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  #93  
Old 01-18-2016, 01:43 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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He doesn't want to admit that the Horde is responsible for placing the Horde in the internment camps.
that's a lie. I said the internment camps were the most humane option. The fact that they couldn't separate the people doing the raping and pillaging from those who would have been shitting in diapers at the time was what was wrong.

As for why the horde doesn't hate the foresaken? Simple. They were also made into pawns of the legion and are forced to endure a hellish condition. The orcs feel a sense of similarity in that both were basically pawns of the legion. Even then it was also said to be an alliance of convenience, with the orcs being somewhat wary of them.


How is beating children and defacating on them just?

Fogger's complaints about how cataclysm disproportionately favored the horde? fine. the problem is that he seems to think the best thing is to have the alliance have the same disproportionate favor FOR THEM.

If the expansions were ALLIANCE wankfests Fojar would be praising them as works of art.
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  #94  
Old 01-18-2016, 05:34 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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I'm an Alliance fan, and the last two expansions have been pretty Alliance wanky.

I mean, we kick the Horde's ass on Pandaria, stop them at every turn, invade their main Capital, go back in time and show the Orcs that they are assholes with or without demons, and then kill all of the people they worshiped as heroes.

That's not even bringing into the fact that the Blood Elves were on the verge of jumping ship, the Forsaken (Sylvanas) has no real interest in the Horde (and she's becoming Warchief!), and the Trolls and Tauren are ineffectual.

The Alliance gets to be shown it's pretty much the awesome team of people, while the Horde get shown that they are scum, through and through.

These last two expansions have been more Alliance wank than Wrath of the Lich King.
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And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #95  
Old 01-18-2016, 08:35 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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As for why the horde doesn't hate the foresaken? Simple. They were also made into pawns of the legion and are forced to endure a hellish condition.
Where is this shown

Both the Orcs attitude and the notion that undeath is a hellish condition which is something the jury is still out on based on Sir Fojar's current travels

For a hellish condition that I am stoically enduring I sure have done an awful lot of perpetuating it and I'm not even level 5 yet
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  #96  
Old 01-18-2016, 01:44 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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that's a lie. I said the internment camps were the most humane option. The fact that they couldn't separate the people doing the raping and pillaging from those who would have been shitting in diapers at the time was what was wrong.
Besides Thrall, can you name a single orc child who was brought over from Draenor during the first two wars? Nonwithstanding the fact that a significant amount of the orcs were child soldiers, magically aged up into adulthood and just as dangerous as full grown adults.

Almost every child in the orc camps would've been born there; and you could argue that it would be cruel to tear them away from their parents (plus that'd be a disturbing parallel to Australia's "stolen generation" or Canada's Indian boarding schools)
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Old 01-18-2016, 04:57 PM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Would have preferred this scenario if it would've meant we could've kept Garrosh's Horde.
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  #98  
Old 01-18-2016, 05:23 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
that's a lie. I said the internment camps were the most humane option. The fact that they couldn't separate the people doing the raping and pillaging from those who would have been shitting in diapers at the time was what was wrong.

As for why the horde doesn't hate the foresaken? Simple. They were also made into pawns of the legion and are forced to endure a hellish condition. The orcs feel a sense of similarity in that both were basically pawns of the legion. Even then it was also said to be an alliance of convenience, with the orcs being somewhat wary of them.


How is beating children and defacating on them just?
I'm not making judgements about whether the interment camps were right or wrong. I'm just saying, according to certain people's logic, that you can't blame the Alliance for the internment camps. Lordaeron was the primary driving force of the internment camps. If the Forsaken=Lordaeron, as has been argued, and the Forsaken are members of the Horde, then the blame for the internment camps fall on the Horde. Going by War Crimes' legal logic, the Horde placed the Horde in the internment camps. Vol'jin is responsible for all those baby orcs being shit on, not the Alliance.

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