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  #1001  
Old 10-16-2016, 07:45 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
It's pathetic, and frankly if I was Black I'd be ashamed a bunch of Swe Beta Males think they need to speak for/represent me like that.
Yeah......not the worst case of white people trying to speak for black people, so eh.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #1002  
Old 10-16-2016, 07:51 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Yeah......not the worst case of white people trying to speak for black people, so eh.
What would those be? You're a reasonable black dude, I trust you.
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  #1003  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:00 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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What would those be? You're a reasonable black dude, I trust you.
Pretty much any Luke Cage story written by an overly liberal (but no self awareness) white guy.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #1004  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:08 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Pretty much any Luke Cage story written by an overly liberal (but no self awareness) white guy.
Sweet Christmas. Are you saying we shouldn't criticize urban law enforcement while simultaneously arming them with alien bullets specifically designed to kill black superheroes and also making big shrapnel explosions when they miss?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-16-2016 at 08:12 AM..
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  #1005  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:11 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Mutter, it's cancerous SJW retards like you that are the reason Battlefield 1 has British (and even fucking German) soldiers be 80% Black, and there's no option to customise last I checked. I can't even begin to describe how retarded and unrealistic this is.

Fuck off please.
I'm not responsible for other people Hammer, dunno what you want from me, I've already said repeatedly I don't support the kind of tokenism Omacron and you are describing here.
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  #1006  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:14 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Sweet Christmas. Are you saying we shouldn't criticize urban law enforcement while simultaneously arming them with alien bullets specifically designed to kill black superheroes and also making big shrapnel explosions when they miss?
Mostly meant this.

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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #1007  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:22 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Civil War 2 was a mistake
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  #1008  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:25 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Civil War 2 was a mistake
Marvel Civil War 1 Was a mistake, the movie was pretty good though.
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  #1009  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:29 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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For the record, I'm mostly talking about the whole knit knack paddy whack thing.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #1010  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:36 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
For the record, I'm mostly talking about the whole knit knack paddy whack thing.
How do you feel about Miles Morales?
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  #1011  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:42 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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How do you feel about Miles Morales?
He's fine.
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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #1012  
Old 10-16-2016, 01:38 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I still think Spider-Man should be Asian. He's a nerdy guy from Queens! Just make him Korean and call him "Peter Park."
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  #1013  
Old 10-16-2016, 04:01 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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>Sees Omacron's post

>Counting Berbers as non-Whitey

You're reaching.
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  #1014  
Old 10-16-2016, 07:24 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. You're not 'taking me to task' you're being argumentative because I linked to a blog you don't like a few months ago and because you and I have always disliked each other.

And all because when people say "We can't include x because of historical accuracy" I, and others, go "Well actually there's evidence to support x could've happened", and despite your claims about tumblr, it's far from my only source..

I don't feign ignorance, you and Mertico just so eager for your "AHA! GOTCHA!" moment that you make up things, say I believe them, and then accuse me of backpedaling when I clarify, no, I don't believe that thing you say I do.


2. You're the one who keeps putting "Legitimate" in there not me.

Point A: I believe that our view of history is affected in part by the biases of our historians, these people are human like the rest of us and capable of letting the worldview they grew up in influence their perception of their findings.

Point B: Earlier in this discussion Smoke railed against historic revisionism being inaccurate, and I pointed out there's a middleground between the extremes he's concerned about and keeping an open mind regarding the past and the existence of warrior women/shield maidens and black nobility in europe. A term which I used at the time to mean any dark skinned person from Africa. I wasn't aware how sharply the distinction between Black/African and other terms was expected to be. I would've considered Moors to have fallen under this term previously but others apparently do not and so I'll defer to group judgement there.

Point C: I feel when people say "Well we couldn't include X group for historical accuracy!" there's often evidence to suggest the possibility, if not a certainty, that X group lived in or at least had contact with a location. Similar argument with "Well in Y era X group only filled Z role in society", things aren't so narrow as people often believe, heck there's evidence for a black woman of status in Roman York.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...re/8538888.stm

I don't agree with people who harass developers, but when a developer decides that ethnicity is the most immersion breaking thing about a historical setting, or a fantasy setting with a medieval aesthetic and justifies it with claims of protecting historical accuracy... that doesn't sit right with me because it's becoming apparent the past is not quite as confining as people make it out to be. I feel in a free market and with free speech people have every right to say if they don't like or don't agree with a devs reasoning, I agree such disagreements shouldn't be rude or nasty but if a dev says "We couldn't do that because..." and someone asks "Well why did you make the game that way?" It shouldn't be taken as a sarcastic rebuttal, but a legitimate inquiry.

I really wish I better understood what it was you're looking to get out of this discussion here.

EDIT:

I'm still not being clear enough. I wish I knew how to articulate this better, I really do.

I'm not advocating for LITERAL tokens. I'm not advocating when I say 'slap', that something literally be squeezed in last minute to meet a checklist/quota/PR reporting requirement, I don't know how many times I need to say that sort of thing makes no one happy.

I'm not advocating for a mandate.

I'm saying people should be able to say "Man I would've really liked a human kingdom in Tanaris or Stranglethorn or Pandaria and for them not to be treated like they're whiny, crazy, or impossible to satisfy.

Not everyone's race NEEDS to be present but if people say they'd like there to be more diversity and variety then we have, why should they be treated any different than the person who says they'd like wildebeest tauren, a magic rocketlauncher or bug aliens in a game? They're ignored, and on the rare occasions something is made for them it's treated like caving, or if someone makes a game of that nature from the ground up it's seen negatively.

I'm saying if someone says "We couldn't include this thing because X" and they use a lore explanation to exclude something then it's fair for the audience to criticize or question because the devs MADE the lore, and so clearly the lore explanation isn't the root of why it wasn't included.

Take Blizz as an example again, they never set out to exclude african/asian ethnicities from humans they just... never addressed them really and so we kind of have to assume 'uh I guess they came from people who lived in stranglethorn or just curse of flesh w/e'.

You say the people who want those kinds of options are shallow / racist though and I just, can't agree with that, everyone likes having options for their character, some people like their character to look like them and identify with it, it's not -wrong- to want those things and I think it's unfair to ridicule them.

Is it so wrong to want Devs to think of these kinds of things and at least consider them at the start of a project? Is it so wrong to want them to be -allowed- to make this kind of content?

You should know as well as anyone else Omacron that there are times things don't get done not because they had to be cut but because they didn't get support internally or weren't determined something that'd 'sell' or that'd have enough appeal, we see all the time in TV shows and shit stuff that gets censored or edited and shot down for all kinds of reasons.

What about the people who want to make these characters and tell these stories or add these things and can't because there's a shitstorm everytime anyone even hints at a character being gay or having a certain ethnicity is considered a big sellout by the devs rather than being something they wanted to do or something they decided to do after feedback from the fanbase?
An entire essay and you still managed to say nothing. Impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
This is a bizarre standard. How many white rulers in Europe started their dynasties through "peaceful assimilation" instead of conquest?

"There were NEVER Normans ruling over England! The ones you're thinking of don't count! Because conquest."

"The Iberian Peninsula has never had nobility. None of them count. Because conquest. Those Christian kings conquested the North African caliphates conquested the Visigoths conquested the Romans conquested the Carthaginians and Iberians..."

"French dynasties are all lies. You know Charlemagne? He conquered places. So yeah, fruit from the poisoned tree. Doesn't count."
Were you even paying attention to the discussion at hand? Context matters.

You're starting a completely different discussion that has no relevance to the current one. You're propping up some "bizarre" standard" that doesn't even apply in this situation.
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  #1015  
Old 10-16-2016, 07:27 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Jesus christ Frost

I'm done with this.
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  #1016  
Old 10-16-2016, 07:33 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Can we please stop all of this and just go back to talking about history without resorting to all of the name calling and whatever?

This thread is for talking about history. If you want to discuss other stuff, we have plenty of other threads in which you can go full hog.

Thank you.
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  #1017  
Old 10-16-2016, 07:54 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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  #1018  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:15 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
I wish I was joking.

I'm not.

The Devs are a bunch of SweCucks so I don't know why I'm suprised. Just listen to this snippet from the Beta Nu-Male Lead Dev:
Heh, I know your pain well.

They totally forgot that there existed a Southern front to WWI. I mean trashing the Austrians and pals, first Allied victory in the war, later get overwhelmed when Germans come too, whole army and half the country forced to retreat because the enemy is kill-happy. Trek across Albanian wastes, get evacuated to an island, lots of people die in the journey and back home under occupation. Against all odds the army recuperates, goes right back to fighting. There they break the stalemate quickly, break enemy lines and with immense alacrity liberate the homeland and force Bulgaria to capitulate and leave the enemy South wide open, enemy capitulates soon thereafter. It's nothing short of an epic struggle, but fuck that gotta go for those obscure battles
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  #1019  
Old 10-16-2016, 08:50 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Heh, I know your pain well.

They totally forgot that there existed a Southern front to WWI. I mean trashing the Austrians and pals, first Allied victory in the war, later get overwhelmed when Germans come too, whole army and half the country forced to retreat because the enemy is kill-happy. Trek across Albanian wastes, get evacuated to an island, lots of people die in the journey and back home under occupation. Against all odds the army recuperates, goes right back to fighting. There they break the stalemate quickly, break enemy lines and with immense alacrity liberate the homeland and force Bulgaria to capitulate and leave the enemy South wide open, enemy capitulates soon thereafter. It's nothing short of an epic struggle, but fuck that gotta go for those obscure battles
It's funny and crazy how the Germans more or less fought a war and won on so many fronts. The Austrians, Italians, and Turks just slowed them down.
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  #1020  
Old 10-16-2016, 09:14 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
It's funny and crazy how the Germans more or less fought a war and won on so many fronts. The Austrians, Italians, and Turks just slowed them down.
They were quite formidable to be sure, but they needed their allies if nothing else just so they could man the whole front line. We should not mythicize their competence, they would have certainly fared much worse without allies.

Also Italy was on the side of the Entente in WWI, though they joined late and were actually part of the Central Powers at the start of the war (but they were not fighting until they declared for the Entente).
Central Powers were: Austria-Hungary, Germany, Ottomans and Bulgaria.
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  #1021  
Old 10-16-2016, 09:29 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
They were quite formidable to be sure, but they needed their allies if nothing else just so they could man the whole front line. We should not mythicize their competence, they would have certainly fared much worse without allies.

Also Italy was on the side of the Entente in WWI, though they joined late and were actually part of the Central Powers at the start of the war (but they were not fighting until they declared for the Entente).
Central Powers were: Austria-Hungary, Germany, Ottomans and Bulgaria.
I don't know. Fighting a war on two fronts. One against France and the British and one against Russia. Picking up the slack for the Austro-Hungarians. Serbians are formidable fighters to be sure, but Germany did put in a lot of work to keeping the war going for so long.
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  #1022  
Old 10-16-2016, 09:33 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Its easy to win a fight if you spend all your money and time prepping and planning for it and building up the military and your opponents put more of theirs into quality of life and such

Not to mention geographic differences
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  #1023  
Old 10-16-2016, 09:44 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
I don't know. Fighting a war on two fronts. One against France and the British and one against Russia. Picking up the slack for the Austro-Hungarians. Serbians are formidable fighters to be sure, but Germany did put in a lot of work to keeping the war going for so long.
True.
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  #1024  
Old 10-16-2016, 10:05 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
Were you even paying attention to the discussion at hand? Context matters.

You're starting a completely different discussion that has no relevance to the current one. You're propping up some "bizarre" standard" that doesn't even apply in this situation.
Sigh. Bolded.

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
There were no black nobility in Europe, you mong. That was your initial argument and it's been debunked.

Even if you want to extend "black" to anyone from Africa, you'd still be wrong. Moorish Muslims ruling over conquered Europeans doesn't count in the way you're trying to make it count. You see, you want us to believe that there were black noblemen peacefully ruling over native Europeans and that was just "accepted."

Any non-white ruler in Europe was usually in their position of power through brutal conquest, not peaceful assimilation.
Whether they were Mongol, Turkish, Moorish, Arabic, or whatever, they were always in their position through conquest and they were eventually overthrown or had to fuck off because they couldn't run an empire. (Except in the case of Hungary.) Also, none of them were "black."

If you want us to accept North African Muslims as "legitimate" black noblemen in Europe, then you will have to accept that Africa had "legitimate" European kings because the Europeans subjugated them and made them their bitches multiple times all across the continent. Only problem is that'd be incredibly stupid, wouldn't it? Welcome to your argument.
* I was paying attention.
* You said Moorish Spain doesn't count as non-whites ruling in Europe because it was achieved through conquest.
* That criteria is silly. It totally counts.
* I wish you were less invested in the mighty whitey crowd.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-16-2016 at 10:23 PM..
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  #1025  
Old 10-16-2016, 10:47 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
>Sees Omacron's post

>Counting Berbers as non-Whitey

You're reaching.
How so?
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