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  #76  
Old 06-14-2018, 05:24 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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As I said before, I prefer the version of the Forsaken as the amoral assholes but even then there is a distinction. There is the difference between the guy who is not a good guy who sometimes does horrible things but you will put that away to work with them when world threatening events are unfolding and the guys who are akin to a world threatening evil all their own.

As the name implies, I started in vanilla as a Forsaken fan who lvled a mage to 60, I still am to some extent but I find that sometimes it's overkill. After Wrath ended the Forsaken storyline was put into that issue of "okay, what comes next?" And Blizzard's response was to go and make it all about Sylvanas's attempt to stave off oblivion. So she uses the Valkyr to keep herself alive and to keep a wall of corpses surrounding her in the hopes that she won't go to Warcraft hell. The events in Legion continue to follow this path and this strain of thought.

While I'm not against the idea of moving into the theme of achieving immortality and "staying alive" the way that it was done makes the Forsaken just as much as an evil as the Lich King was. Keep in mind, prior to Cataclysm the fact that Arthas put them into that state and made them do such things is why they hated him in the first place. From a philosophical view, it's contradictory.

I would've liked the idea of borrowing from the Mogu back in Catacylsm as a way to keep them alive but that could potentially move the Forsaken away from their standard theme of undead but would've made some evolution beyond Scourge 2.0.
Another alternative is something that existed back in Vanilla, a cure for undeath. IIRC the Tauren and undead were working on a cure for reversing the process. Since we're getting Ally races now it's theoretically possible to make something akin to "cured" Forsaken. Maybe have a design that still has the glowing eyes, pale skin, and little muscle texture but beyond that they look humanish?

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  #77  
Old 06-15-2018, 09:17 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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I wonder if it ends with Odyn and the newly reorganized Watchers taking over the world, telling us that if we don’t stop fighting then Azeroth will never “come to order.”

That or the resurgence of the black empire as tentacles grasp our armadas and drag them into the deep, Dark Below.
I could see Odyn giving Sylvanas the same treatement he gave Helya. He could force her into servitude as her new Val'kyr. So basically, she'd become a slave again. That way, she's not a raid boss, she's not necessarily written out of the story and she gets an ironic fate.
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  #78  
Old 06-16-2018, 01:06 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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It's already been said that this expansion won't end like Pandaland did. I really doubt that they'll go and let you stab Sylvanas to Super Death instead of capturing her. Not like she's the final boss either.
I have 10 cookies on last minute change of heart, realisation of what she's become and heroic sacrifice that save us from some void shenanigans.
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  #79  
Old 06-16-2018, 06:57 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The better approach would be to go around rounding up Forsaken. Offer the ones who comply a transformation from the Light. Burn those who refuse. The Forsaken as they are now just can't be trusted to behave. That won't happen of course.
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  #80  
Old 06-16-2018, 09:45 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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The better approach would be to go around rounding up Forsaken. Offer the ones who comply a transformation from the Light. Burn those who refuse. The Forsaken as they are now just can't be trusted to behave. That won't happen of course.
But how would that work in-game though?

Of course, if I was a forsaken, I'd jump at the light transformation.
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  #81  
Old 06-16-2018, 07:58 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Hence me saying it won't happen even if it'd be a better idea than what's going to happen (Anduin gives a #NotAllForsaken/#NotAllHorde speech then walks away with the rest of the Alliance). We can't have the Hordies face actual consequences for antics.
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  #82  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:06 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Default Calia new leader of the forsaken?

ok calia is now an undead and she wants to be the ruler of the forsaken and lordaeron.

I think this is possible and I do not think sylvanas comes out alive from this expa and the forsaken will have a new leader who is a menethil.

Anduin would be very happy that Calia became the leader of the Forsaken.

for me the important thing would be that they add quest so that we help Calia to gain strength within the society of the Forsaken.

there are some people who talk about nathanos should be the leader but if you play the side of the horde you know that he hates us (player character) actually hates everything. also nathanos made it clear that the day that sylvanas dies he also dies
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  #83  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:59 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Ah the Garrosh approach to "redemption"

And even this scenario wouldn't alter the problem of "Why AREN'T they Alliance?" Especially since Calia has been established as being straight up Alliance and most of those good Forsaken would defect given the chance.
Calia is part of the conclave, a neutral faction where priests of different races of both the alliance and the horde live together.
Calia said she wants to be the leader of the Forsaken.
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  #84  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:05 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Calia is part of the conclave, a neutral faction where priests of different races of both the alliance and the horde live together.
Calia said she wants to be the leader of the Forsaken.
She wants to be leader of "her people" which would include members of the Forsaken who identify as Lordaeronian and also the Lordaeronian refugees in the Alliance.

Considering her relationship with Anduin, the fact that all the Forsaken who consider themselves Lordaeronian would apparently defect to the Alliance given the chance, her association with Moira/Velen/The Naaru, and the fact that Sylvanas, whom most Forsaken are still loyal to, just murdered her, saying "she wants to be leader of the Forsaken" is a gross misreading of her position and her affiliations.

Either way, the fact of the matter at the end of the book is that she is Lightforged Undead, made that way by Faol (who is now persona-non-grata in the Horde) and Anduin Wrynn, King of Stormwind. She is now kill-on-sight to the Horde, and is under Alliance protection. Combined with the fact that the Forsaken lose Lordaeron in the expansion, and the connections between her and the Forsaken vs her and the Alliance are very specious at best.
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  #85  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:32 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Rhllor, please don't double post.

You have a tendency to do so, so although I hate assings, I might have to give you one if this continues.
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  #86  
Old 06-17-2018, 02:53 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
She wants to be leader of "her people" which would include members of the Forsaken who identify as Lordaeronian and also the Lordaeronian refugees in the Alliance.

Considering her relationship with Anduin, the fact that all the Forsaken who consider themselves Lordaeronian would apparently defect to the Alliance given the chance, her association with Moira/Velen/The Naaru, and the fact that Sylvanas, whom most Forsaken are still loyal to, just murdered her, saying "she wants to be leader of the Forsaken" is a gross misreading of her position and her affiliations.

Either way, the fact of the matter at the end of the book is that she is Lightforged Undead, made that way by Faol (who is now persona-non-grata in the Horde) and Anduin Wrynn, King of Stormwind. She is now kill-on-sight to the Horde, and is under Alliance protection. Combined with the fact that the Forsaken lose Lordaeron in the expansion, and the connections between her and the Forsaken vs her and the Alliance are very specious at best.
Calia is technically NOT Alliance (Sylvanas didnt kill ANY Alliance members on that field so there would not be a war started over her actions).

my thoughts at the end of the novel and the things that are blizzard, lead me to think that calia will be the leader of the forsaken and we will have an allied race of undead uncorrupted
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  #87  
Old 06-17-2018, 05:54 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Calia is technically NOT Alliance (Sylvanas didnt kill ANY Alliance members on that field so there would not be a war started over her actions).

my thoughts at the end of the novel and the things that are blizzard, lead me to think that calia will be the leader of the forsaken and we will have an allied race of undead uncorrupted
I like it. Especially if they go with Calia being more of a "balance" between Light and Undeath.
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  #88  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:03 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Calia is technically NOT Alliance (Sylvanas didnt kill ANY Alliance members on that field so there would not be a war started over her actions).
Yeah, but now that the Horde have fucking murdered her and Faol would no longer be welcome in Horde lands, she is de facto Alliance when that is taken together with her already strong relationship with various Alliance characters.

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my thoughts at the end of the novel and the things that are blizzard, lead me to think that calia will be the leader of the forsaken and we will have an allied race of undead uncorrupted
Why? The Alliance controls Lordaeron as of the expansion (and without controlling Lordaeron the Forsaken have no connection to Lordaeron beyond what they have to any other kingdom from which they've pulled their ranks) and we have seen nothing to indicate disloyalty towards Sylvanas among the Forsaken writ large, not to mention Calia wouldn't propagate undeath which would make a lot of Forsaken unhappy.

I really don't see how you can read this book and say "Calia is going to lead the Forsaken" considering her interaction with any Forsaken is minimal and those she does interact with are killed.

In addition, Sylvanas was able to kill Calia not because she "wasn't technically Alliance" but because she could frame her presence and revelation as Anduin threatening her power and thus portray it as an Alliance provocation.

So what we have here is a situation where Calia goes to a meetup as part of an Alliance attachment to reunite families, some Forsaken recognize her and then try to defect to the Alliance by returning to Stromgarde Keep with her. Sylvanas then kills her and claims an Alliance provocation, along with any Forsaken who might want her rule. With her sympathizers dead, Calia made Lightforged by Anduin and Faol and under the Alliance's protection, and with the Forsaken losing Lordaeron, you somehow come away with it as "clearly this indicates that Calia will lead the Forsaken" despite it suggesting nothing even remotely like that.

The book goes out of its way to establish Calia's connections with the Alliance, Sylvanas' Forsaken as being not Lordaeron based in their identity, establishing a new kind of undead being that's Light infused and was created partially by Anduin Wrynn, and getting rid of the only prominent organization within the Forsaken that might conceivably want Calia as leader. They are really obviously setting up Alliance Holy Undead, and coming away from this thinking that Calia + Forsaken is a sensible pairing is not only baffling but reeks of wishful thinking.
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  #89  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:43 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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  #90  
Old 06-17-2018, 08:56 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Indeed, Fojar is right. However tenuous Calia’s connection to the Alliance (and it doesn’t seem that tenuous to me) her relationship with the Horde is nonexistent. No, it’s not nonexistent it’s hostile. Calia’s claim is to the Throne of Lordaeron. Lordaeron is no longer Horde territory. If they want to make that permanent then an Alliance undead allied race would do the trick.
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  #91  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:40 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Calia will rule over Lordaeron.

Lightforged Calia will definitely be in game, and patch 8.1 is Azshara for sure.

That means Calia for 8.2 or 8.3.

However, she wouldn't appear alone or without reason, so... Lordaeron patch?

Do you guys see how that mirrors Legion?

Expansion intro event: Broken Shore
7.1: Nighthold raid
7.2: return to Broken Shore

Expansion intro event: Teldrassil and Lordaeron
8.1: Queen Azshara raid
8.2: Lordaeron?
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  #92  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:05 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Also everyone thinks Sylvanas is going to be a raid boss but I genuinely don't think she's going to die and I'm not even sure she's going to be removed from power in the foreseeable future.

BtS did two things relevant to her future; it established the Forsaken as having an identity independent from Lordaeron or from humanity in general, and established that part of that identity is loyalty to Sylvanas and her ideology. We see this continuing through the expansion so far where there is no obvious sign whatsoever of Forsaken being upset with her rule even when they get booted off the continent. We don't see any pining for old country from any Forsaken NPC's so far and the only degree to which "former lives" even enter into the equation is when they're doing that creepy gaslighting on newly raised undead to make them cooperative, and even then it's in an attempt to sever any lingering emotional links.

What it did set up was the existence of an ideological schism within the Forsaken, with the dividing line being what the central element of their identity is (Human or Undead) and their beliefs regarding the future of undeath (perpetuate as much as possible or just let nature take its course.) It also established Sylvanas and anyone loyal to her as being hostile to their ideological opposites to the point that they will indiscriminately wipe out Forsaken en masse in an effort to eradicate it.

Considering that

A) We see no evidence that anything besides Sylvanas' ideology is present in the Forsaken at the time of the expansion

B) Those who followed the ideology of the Desolate Council already identified Calia as the leader that they'd prefer

C) The existence of holy undead, manifesting first in the de facto leader of Sylvanas' foe in this ideological schism, in the presence and protection of the Alliance

D) The book going to great, great, great lengths to kill the "Alliance is racist towards undead" angle to the point that even Genn says "Yeah some are alright"

and

E) If they were grooming Sylvanas' replacement they wouldn't be doing it in a book where very little of material importance for the purpose of the game is presented, narratively

It seems really, really hard to see it any other way but setting up Alliance undead. While it isn't inconceivable that they would go the opposite direction and make holy undead Horde and kill Sylvanas and install Calia it would require them to repeat the Garrosh storyline beat for beat but with an even stupider conclusion, which nobody in this thread should approve of, and it would also make holy undead completely redundant, it would establish virtually no meaningful difference between holy undead and garden variety. Hell, if they were setting up Calia to replace Sylvanas they probably would have just made her fully undead instead of some weird half-undeath that poorly reflects Horde aesthetics.
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  #93  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:07 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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However, she wouldn't appear alone or without reason, so... Lordaeron patch?
Yes, revamped Gilneas, Silverpine, Tirisfal and Hillsbrad for lvl 120+, with questlines and world quests, possibly Scarlet Monastery and Shadowfang Keep revamped as well. As for the raid, probably that mirrored Zuldazar raid that might come along. If that's more of a ToV 8.1.5 raid, then perhaps Lordaeron itself, or somewhere like Andorhal or something interesting in the Dalaran Crater.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:20 PM
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Also, Holy Undead as Alliance led by Calia would literally solve the fundamental contradictions of the Forsaken as they've existed since the start.

Want to be Scourge-lite evil rob zombieman? Go classic Forsaken.

Want to be fallen Human "my flesh may be changed but my heart is still strong" tragic figure? Go Holy Undead.

Hell this even finally lets them implement undead Paladins in a way that isn't completely at odds with undead thematics and metaphysiology.

Blizzard gets what they want and to be honest it seems like the fans get what they want because I haven't heard any significant complaints about the "holy undead" stuff in BtS beyond a general rolling of the eyes at the game's metaphysiology being flipped so casually. Most of the things people are mad about seem to be Sylvanas being a prick, but even then the die-hard Horde faction fans seem to have lined up behind the "Actually Sylvanas was right to kill them" angle.

Evil zombies, sympathetic zombies, undead warlocks and undead Paladins all exist at the same time without any glaring narrative contradictions with this arrangement. Imagine.
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  #95  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:39 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Indeed, Fojar is right. However tenuous Calia’s connection to the Alliance (and it doesn’t seem that tenuous to me) her relationship with the Horde is nonexistent. No, it’s not nonexistent it’s hostile. Calia’s claim is to the Throne of Lordaeron. Lordaeron is no longer Horde territory. If they want to make that permanent then an Alliance undead allied race would do the trick.
The Alliance doesn't "control" Lordaeron, though. It's technically neutral territory, now. The problem with giving it, permanently, to the Alliance, is that it would deprive a Horde race of land and a city. Especially since it seems likely that the Night Elves are going to get their tree back eventually. The fact that there are thousands of Undead and Kaldorei still fighting in their homelands against their respective invaders, and that the war will likely end in this expansion, tells me that it's a "temporary" situation. There will probably be land swaps, and "destroying" the cities was an excuse to remodel and update them later on, in the future expansion after BfA.

Calia doesn't need (Sylvanas didn't have one, nor did the Blood Elves) much of a connection to the other Horde races, as they all hate Sylvanas and are slowly starting to turn on her, given the constant disapproval of her from other Horde leaders. Calia only needs the support of the Forsaken, and I don't see there being an Alliance Undead race. Especially if Calia doesn't want to make anymore Undead.

It would also be patently imbecilic for Blizzard to kill off all of the Forsaken leaders, then leave them homeless, and then have Calia take half of their population to the Alliance. Especially if they don't have anyone to replace Sylvanas with, as I don't see Nathanos living past this expansion, as he is Sylvanas' boytoy and is just as sociopathic and almost as insane as his Queen.

Then again, Blizzard did kill off Vol'jin without any replacements. And Garrosh. And then just inserted "leaders" from any random schmuck and only alerted Horde players in tweets instead of an actual written story (those are only for the Alliance). So, if they wanted to just piss on the Horde again for the fifteen quadrillionth time, that would be a way to do it.
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  #96  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:00 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Unless the effects of the blight are handwaved away the Forsaken aren't returning to Lordaeron with Undercity as their capital.

Wartable missions definitely suggest that the Horde's presence in Lordaeron has been reduced to a handful of outposts in Silverpine and Hillsbrad with the Alliance controlling WPL and Gilneas at the very least, and in a very strong position in Arathi and Tirisfal. Most Horde missions focus on evacuating Forsaken to Kalimdor, trying to establish a new fortified position, or guerilla hit and run tactics with the Alliance on the offensive and holding the momentum on every front.
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  #97  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:39 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Yeah, I don’t see Undercity or Darnassus as being reclaimable at all. They both seem pretty gone.

Nor am I convinced that Sylvanas is going the way of the Raid Boss. Not when the Loa put her in her position and we’re actually in a position to talk to these Loa...... No, she’s got a full Blizzard Redemption story headed her way. She’s Kerrigan 2.0. And as much as Alliance fans will roll their eyes at that, they will get their Lordaeron to console them.
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:52 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Yeah, but now that the Horde have fucking murdered her and Faol would no longer be welcome in Horde lands, she is de facto Alliance when that is taken together with her already strong relationship with various Alliance characters.



Why? The Alliance controls Lordaeron as of the expansion (and without controlling Lordaeron the Forsaken have no connection to Lordaeron beyond what they have to any other kingdom from which they've pulled their ranks) and we have seen nothing to indicate disloyalty towards Sylvanas among the Forsaken writ large, not to mention Calia wouldn't propagate undeath which would make a lot of Forsaken unhappy.

I really don't see how you can read this book and say "Calia is going to lead the Forsaken" considering her interaction with any Forsaken is minimal and those she does interact with are killed.

In addition, Sylvanas was able to kill Calia not because she "wasn't technically Alliance" but because she could frame her presence and revelation as Anduin threatening her power and thus portray it as an Alliance provocation.

So what we have here is a situation where Calia goes to a meetup as part of an Alliance attachment to reunite families, some Forsaken recognize her and then try to defect to the Alliance by returning to Stromgarde Keep with her. Sylvanas then kills her and claims an Alliance provocation, along with any Forsaken who might want her rule. With her sympathizers dead, Calia made Lightforged by Anduin and Faol and under the Alliance's protection, and with the Forsaken losing Lordaeron, you somehow come away with it as "clearly this indicates that Calia will lead the Forsaken" despite it suggesting nothing even remotely like that.

The book goes out of its way to establish Calia's connections with the Alliance, Sylvanas' Forsaken as being not Lordaeron based in their identity, establishing a new kind of undead being that's Light infused and was created partially by Anduin Wrynn, and getting rid of the only prominent organization within the Forsaken that might conceivably want Calia as leader. They are really obviously setting up Alliance Holy Undead, and coming away from this thinking that Calia + Forsaken is a sensible pairing is not only baffling but reeks of wishful thinking.
she is clear in its desire to rule the Forsaken and "walk the path of light"
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735221.jpg
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735222.jpg
Calia's goal is for the forsaken to accept light. therefore she could be the leader of a faction of the horde, since she is currently part of a neutral organization she is not part of the alliance

the missions of the followers we can see how the horde / forsaken still has control of parts of the kingdom of lordaeron and is counterattacking the alliance, in the same way that the alliance is counterattacking the horde in kalindor.
To think that the night elves and the forsaken are going to lose their land forever is something that I do not think will happen, I am sure that in the end they will come back.
http://www.wowhead.com/news=284410.5...eroth-spoilers
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/736132.jpg
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/736086.jpg
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Last edited by Rhllor; 06-18-2018 at 04:56 AM..
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  #99  
Old 06-18-2018, 09:23 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I do not understand how can anyone think Calia would be a Horde leader.

The only way she could lead the Forsaken as a whole is if the faction system gets removed and they get to leave the Horde lorewise.
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:18 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Yeah, I don’t see Undercity or Darnassus as being reclaimable at all. They both seem pretty gone.
Darnassus can be regrown, and the Undercity can be cleaned. The fact that the Horde and Alliance could only pull a blitzkrieg destruction of the cities, and then had to retreat, tells me that they won't/can't hold the lands forever.
Quote:
Nor am I convinced that Sylvanas is going the way of the Raid Boss. Not when the Loa put her in her position and we’re actually in a position to talk to these Loa...... No, she’s got a full Blizzard Redemption story headed her way. She’s Kerrigan 2.0. And as much as Alliance fans will roll their eyes at that, they will get their Lordaeron to console them.
They've been building Sylvanas up as a villain since Cataclysm. Them pulling a "redemption", Kerrigan-style, out of their ass would be extremely stupid and cheap. They've also said that there will be a "reckoning" with Sylvanas, that she will go too far, and that we will have to "deal with her" eventually.

They also hinted at killing her off in the recent Q&A.
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