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  #26  
Old 09-18-2013, 05:12 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by WhinyAlly View Post
He will if he values justice and retribution. Anduin is no-longer in potential danger (and why the fuck was he there to begin with?) so Varian shouldn't hesitate at all to claim Garrosh.
How the hell was Anduin not in potential danger? They were in the same room as the strongest shaman in the world, two experienced rangers (one of whom has weird magical powers) and a pretty good shadow hunter, right.

The thing is, both factions only want garrosh so the other faction can't kill him. Both know that the other guys will kill him, which is exactly what both factions want. Justice and retribution are done no matter which faction actually gets garrosh. The only reason there is any degree of conflict is because of ego, and every leader on both sides is supposed to be too smart to start fighting over that.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:17 PM
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How the hell was Anduin not in potential danger? They were in the same room as the strongest shaman in the world, two experienced rangers (one of whom has weird magical powers) and a pretty good shadow hunter, right.

The thing is, both factions only want garrosh so the other faction can't kill him. Both know that the other guys will kill him, which is exactly what both factions want. Justice and retribution are done no matter which faction actually gets garrosh. The only reason there is any degree of conflict is because of ego, and every leader on both sides is supposed to be too smart to start fighting over that.
I meant now, after the siege. And if I want the Alliance to kill him, it's because the Alliance was Garrosh's biggest victim.
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  #28  
Old 09-18-2013, 05:22 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by WhinyAlly View Post
He will if he values justice and retribution. Anduin is no-longer in potential danger (and why the fuck was he there to begin with?) so Varian shouldn't hesitate at all to claim Garrosh.
Considering that Taran Zhu and Lorewalker Cho never appear in Orgrimmar before Garrosh's defeat either, I wouldn't be surprised if Anduin came with them.
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  #29  
Old 09-18-2013, 05:23 PM
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Considering that Taran Zhu and Lorewalker Cho never appear in Orgrimmar before Garrosh's defeat either, I wouldn't be surprised if Anduin came with them.
sigh

That kid can be so stupid sometimes...
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  #30  
Old 09-18-2013, 05:23 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I meant now, after the siege.
But the decision wasn't made after the siege. It had to be made in a spur of the moment decision in that particular situation. Varian can hardly go up to taran zhu now and demand garrosh back without looking really silly.
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  #31  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:10 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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But the decision wasn't made after the siege. It had to be made in a spur of the moment decision in that particular situation. Varian can hardly go up to taran zhu now and demand garrosh back without looking really silly.
True. But Varian can say "WE are taking Garrosh" during the trial and old Zhu won't have anything to say on the matter.

But anyway, it's not like anything will come out of this trial.

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  #32  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:22 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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True. But Varian can say "WE are taking Garrosh" during the trial and old Zhu won't have anything to say on the matter.
Wait, wasn't Varian supposed to be a moral dude or something? Because going back on your word, taking a prisoner from a foreign jail against the will of the jail owners and possibly threatening an innocent nation just because you want kill credit is not exactly the height of heroic behavior. Or villainous behavior for that matter. Mostly, it's psycho-crazy behavior.

Plus, the horde and alliance leaders seem more concerned with not giving the other side the kill than they seem concerned with getting it themselves.
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  #33  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:24 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Wait, wasn't Varian supposed to be a moral dude or something? Because going back on your word, taking a prisoner from a foreign jail against the will of the jail owners and possibly threatening an innocent nation just because you want kill credit is not exactly the height of heroic behavior. Or villainous behavior for that matter. Mostly, it's psycho-crazy behavior.
But coming in and saying "listen lad, we have facts. this guy hurt us more than you. we want to deal with him, it is our right" is perfectly reasonable.
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  #34  
Old 09-18-2013, 07:56 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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But coming in and saying "listen lad, we have facts. this guy hurt us more than you. we want to deal with him, it is our right" is perfectly reasonable.
Eh, I don't think that would work out.

First, I'm not entirely sure if the alliance has actually been hurt more than the pandaren (by the horde under garrosh, not the horde in general). Sure, there's been some nasty attacks by the horde against the alliance, but it was mostly going on in areas that were pretty depopulated (ashenvale elves largely moved to teldrassil, lordaeron humans largely moved to Stormwind, gilneans had become feral worgen before the attack and many of the others were evacuated), or only involved military targets. Plus, thanks to the first three wars, it's unlikely that any part of Azeroth is really all that densely settled (unlike pandaria and its ten thousand years of prosperity). The only really big civilian target that was hit was Theramore. On the other hand, the pandaren lost pretty much the entirety of Kun-lai
Even if it isn't less, there could still be some problem with "close enough", since its a bit of a diplomatic dick move.

Second, the pandaren may not be as sympathetic to the alliance as you'd think. While the orcs and forsaken were definitely the nasties in this war, and the horde the overall villains, we do know that Zhu gets along with Dawnchaser and Vol'jin, and mostly holds garrosh responsible. Plus, while the orcs and forsaken have been dicks overall, there's also some nastiness from the alliance that when viewed out of complete context give more of the appearance of a cycle of hatred (rather than anything grey about the alliance being forgotten by the horde when cataclysm started, because trying to justify your war is for suckers). In particular, the dwarves going into tauren territory and blowing holes into sacred land to unearth titan treasures is going to sound strangely familiar. While they're still more sympathetic to the alliance for obvious reasons, it might not be enough for them to completely screw over the horde.

Third, it would Varian betrayed the first deal he made with the new horde he was supposedly giving a new chance so the war could end. That's a really dumb move.

Overall, weighing the certain costs (really bad relationship move with the new new new horde), the possible costs (bad relationship move with the pandaren, making them more sympathetic to the horde by seeing us try to screw them over while they're not looking), the chance of succeeding versus the potential benefits (w00z, we get kill-cred), I don't think its's a smart move.
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  #35  
Old 09-18-2013, 08:17 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Get back to me when the Horde sets up a literal deathcamp for Pandaren.
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  #36  
Old 09-18-2013, 09:01 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Get back to me when the Horde sets up a literal deathcamp for Pandaren.
Why would... they do that...?
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  #37  
Old 09-18-2013, 09:06 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Why would... they do that...?
The point is that the Horde did so for the Alliance, and not to the pandaren. Ergo, the pandaren didn't suffer as much as the Alliance.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #38  
Old 09-18-2013, 10:59 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Most members of the argent crusade were members of the alliance or the scarlet crusade until pretty recently (with former horde members being a bit of a minority). Most other 'neutral' factions have similar hang-ups, because neutral in world of warcraft is pretty much another word for "member of the alliance, but not stuck in this annoying faction system"
I'd say the Argents are the most neutral aligned faction out there. They will deal with anyone and keep a calm face about it. The members of the Argents aren't stuck up or prejudice against Alliance or Horde (which is admittedly one of the complaints about them), nor do they members appear to bear grudges. Once an Argent, -all- previous allegiances are gone. It's one reason I disagree with those people who say that the Argent crusade would split between former Alliance and Horde members. Apparently, once you become a Argent, those allegiances disappear, the Argents wouldn't split if they go to war against a faction (most likely the Horde).

Anyways, I give the Argents the best candidate for holding Garrosh for trial. They have no axes to grind on him.

Quote:
How the hell was Anduin not in potential danger? They were in the same room as the strongest shaman in the world, two experienced rangers (one of whom has weird magical powers) and a pretty good shadow hunter, right.
A battlefield is no place for a child and no place at all for a ruler and his/her only heir. Anduin shouldn't have been even on the same continent. He should have been locked in his room in Stormwind Keep. Besides, wasn't Thrall made powerless by Garrosh angering the elementals so they won't answer any shaman for miles around Org?

Quote:
The thing is, both factions only want garrosh so the other faction can't kill him. Both know that the other guys will kill him, which is exactly what both factions want. Justice and retribution are done no matter which faction actually gets garrosh. The only reason there is any degree of conflict is because of ego, and every leader on both sides is supposed to be too smart to start fighting over that.

I say hang him. Give him a criminal's death.

Quote:
First, I'm not entirely sure if the alliance has actually been hurt more than the pandaren (by the horde under garrosh, not the horde in general). Sure, there's been some nasty attacks by the horde against the alliance, but it was mostly going on in areas that were pretty depopulated (ashenvale elves largely moved to teldrassil, lordaeron humans largely moved to Stormwind, gilneans had become feral worgen before the attack and many of the others were evacuated), or only involved military targets. Plus, thanks to the first three wars, it's unlikely that any part of Azeroth is really all that densely settled (unlike pandaria and its ten thousand years of prosperity). The only really big civilian target that was hit was Theramore. On the other hand, the pandaren lost pretty much the entirety of Kun-lai
Even if it isn't less, there could still be some problem with "close enough", since its a bit of a diplomatic dick move.

Second, the pandaren may not be as sympathetic to the alliance as you'd think. While the orcs and forsaken were definitely the nasties in this war, and the horde the overall villains, we do know that Zhu gets along with Dawnchaser and Vol'jin, and mostly holds garrosh responsible. Plus, while the orcs and forsaken have been dicks overall, there's also some nastiness from the alliance that when viewed out of complete context give more of the appearance of a cycle of hatred (rather than anything grey about the alliance being forgotten by the horde when cataclysm started, because trying to justify your war is for suckers). In particular, the dwarves going into tauren territory and blowing holes into sacred land to unearth titan treasures is going to sound strangely familiar. While they're still more sympathetic to the alliance for obvious reasons, it might not be enough for them to completely screw over the horde.

Third, it would Varian betrayed the first deal he made with the new horde he was supposedly giving a new chance so the war could end. That's a really dumb move.

Overall, weighing the certain costs (really bad relationship move with the new new new horde), the possible costs (bad relationship move with the pandaren, making them more sympathetic to the horde by seeing us try to screw them over while they're not looking), the chance of succeeding versus the potential benefits (w00z, we get kill-cred), I don't think its's a smart move.
I put that up mostly to Blizzard's ham fisted writing. It's shitty and craptastic as an end to this part of the faction war. Blizzard has put that out as the -only- way the war can end and that any other way will always and inevitably lead to war. No matter how unrealistic it is.
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  #39  
Old 09-18-2013, 11:10 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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This is getting pretty weird...
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  #40  
Old 09-19-2013, 05:21 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Cool

/pops back in to thread

/looks around

Nope.

/leaves thread
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  #41  
Old 09-19-2013, 05:30 AM
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/pops back in to thread

/looks around

Nope.

/leaves thread
This one is wise beyond his post count.
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  #42  
Old 09-19-2013, 06:08 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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This one is wise beyond his post count.
He's just a scaredy cat.
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  #43  
Old 09-19-2013, 07:00 AM
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One of us, and so forth.
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  #44  
Old 09-19-2013, 10:44 AM
Kathune Kathune is offline

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About the topic, it is clear that the vale's water is the very source of Pandaria's agriculture if you did the VoFV quests.

The people of entire continent would suffer from the destruction of the vale. It's obvious big than 1-2 cities.
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  #45  
Old 09-19-2013, 10:51 AM
Kathune Kathune is offline

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Think a about it. The famines around the world is a main reason the Garrosh's war get some many supports.

The pandaria could have helped the world if Garrosh didn't destory the vale
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  #46  
Old 09-19-2013, 10:56 AM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Please don't double post. If you have something to add, edit your previous one.
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  #47  
Old 09-19-2013, 02:07 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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He's just a scaredy cat.
Just because I wear brown pants to combat doesn't make me a scaredy cat.

It's just so my soldiers don't notice me shitting myself.
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  #48  
Old 09-19-2013, 04:32 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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This one is wise beyond his post count.
Considering he's the one starting these threads, I doubt it.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #49  
Old 09-19-2013, 04:35 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Considering he's the one starting these threads, I doubt it.
He did it because of me. Learn the facts!
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  #50  
Old 09-28-2013, 08:04 PM
Adorician Adorician is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
On the other hand, the pandaren lost pretty much the entirety of Kun-lai.
Let's not forget the agricultural impact of the destruction of the Vale. I don't remember *exactly* where this is mentioned in game, but the Valley of the Four Winds is the breadbasket (so to speak) of Pandaria in that most of the food grown in Pandaria is grown there. IIRC, the source of the fertility of the soil is the waters that flow out of the Vale. The Vale that is now destroyed. Along with the source of those waters (at least temporarily, or until the developers deem the Vale "healed" enough for the runoff to come back).

Even if Garrosh's Horde has killed more Alliance than anything else right now, the Pandaren will suffer (and many will likely die) from major food shortages for the time being.

Unless the Alliance sends aid (possible, but unlikely I think, considering the situation in Westfall) or the Horde is suddenly overcome by a devastating bout of remorse and decides to send aid themselves (even less likely, IMHO, as they will probably be more concerned about rebuilding Ogrimmar after the Siege).

But then again, I am new to the lore and theorycrafting.

Cheers!
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Last edited by Adorician; 09-28-2013 at 08:08 PM.. Reason: Factual innacuracies
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