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  #2376  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:15 AM
Meta Meta is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
That would have been interesting. Legion was a heavy class-focused expansion. And they could have done a race-focused expansion that allowed playable races and the factions to do some internal soul-searching about their post-Legion future. It would have been an excellent backdrop for the introduction of the allied races.
The irony is that I could more easily stand a massive faction war if there'd been racial halls, as that feature alone would at least ensure that all playable races got their share of storylines going forward.
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  #2377  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:19 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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The irony is that I could more easily stand a massive faction war if there'd been racial halls, as that feature alone would at least ensure that all playable races got their share of storylines going forward.
Oh, and every race getting their own version of heritage armor or even heritage weapon sets.
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  #2378  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:22 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The irony is that I could more easily stand a massive faction war if there'd been racial halls, as that feature alone would at least ensure that all playable races got their share of storylines going forward.
We are never going to get racial halls for the same reason Blizzard was not content with the class halls, they divided the content too much. It is why we are getting faction campaigns instead, they can still tell racial stories through them, but we can experience those stories with any character regardless of race.
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  #2379  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:43 AM
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There's no need for racial halls. That's what capitals (even pseudo-capitals like Bilgewater Port) are for.

Also, a race-focused expansion wouldn't need to have race-exclusive content. Why, as an orc, you can't go to Silvermoon help your blood elf allies in the blood elf campaign? No reason to limit that.

A race-focused expansion would end up being a faction expansion. However, instead of mindless war, you'd be developing the factions, setting, ending or renewing inter-faction and intra-faction conflicts.

Instead of "Horde burning Teldrassil" and all-out war, you could have orc/night elf border conflict, or forsaken/gilnean war, or elf vs. elf. No major reason for the factions to fight each other, but lots of minor, localized, meaningful conflicts that make sense.

We'd be exploring what matters for each race, and how that race's objectives (be selfless or selfish) get into conflict (or sinergy) with another race's, no matter if that other race is from the same or opposite faction.

Blizzard focusing on faction identity now is stupid because factions have no identity. Races have. Races have reasons to be in that faction, and those reasons must be renewed from time to time. Races have objectives and customs that we should explore.
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  #2380  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:44 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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The Legion is done. The Scourge is done. Deathwing is done. Sooner or later (and given how hurriedly they ended the Legion, probably far sooner than it should be) the Old Gods, Void and Azshara will be defeated. But no matter how much of the rest of this entire fictional universe gets smacked down with unseemly haste, they've outright and proudly said that the contamination of the faction war will never, ever be going away. It's clear that the vast universe they've built is nothing more than a colorful and disposable backdrop to them for going back to the same tired premise over and over, while the stale part of the lore that's held it all back for a decade and turns the characters and the players into unbearable mouthbreathing idiots is the one and only thing they've promised is here to stay, forever and ever, even as they race to use up and cast aside everything else.
I keep hearing from different Discord channels that this is the expansion that will settle the faction conflict once and for all, though. It's fair to take that with a tremendous grain of salt, but if it's true...

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I'm actually considering it. Too upset about WoW's direction lately (no, it's not because of void elves, that was just the latest straw), but old habits die hard, and divorcing myself from something I followed for 21 years is harder than I thought.
If I can do it, you can do it. Just freeze your account for a few months and it starts to wear off.

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
We are never going to get racial halls for the same reason Blizzard was not content with the class halls, they divided the content too much. It is why we are getting faction campaigns instead, they can still tell racial stories through them, but we can experience those stories with any character regardless of race.
Admittedly... yeah. Most of the class hall storylines are extremely disappointing and do barely little to build on the lore of the classes as a consequence of trying to do 12 different stories.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 12-13-2017 at 06:50 AM..
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  #2381  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:46 AM
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If I can do it, you can do it. Just freeze your account for a few months and it starts to wear off.
My subscription ends January 10th. I have until then to decide. Right now, I'm leaning towards not renewing it.
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  #2382  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:49 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Maybe this is what makes the Horde burn down Teldrassil? Alliance attacks their Azerite mining operation, Horde decides to show the Alliance they mean business by destroying Teldrassil, but instead of scaring the Alliance out of fighting it just makes them fight harder leading to the battle of Lordaeron and BfA.
This is a good way to put "who strikes first?"

The Alliance definitely does not consider this the first strike of the conflict, considering their track history with the Horde. And the same goes for the red faction.
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  #2383  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Instead of "Horde burning Teldrassil" and all-out war, you could have orc/night elf border conflict, or forsaken/gilnean war, or elf vs. elf. No major reason for the factions to fight each other, but lots of minor, localized, meaningful conflicts that make sense.
So, yet another boredom of border conflicts, proxy wars, and no massive geopolitical changes. Color me uninterested.
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  #2384  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
So, yet another boredom of border conflicts, proxy wars, and no massive geopolitical changes. Color me uninterested.
So, another zone is destroyed, while the rest of the world keeps locked in the past, like they've been doing since Cata?

I'm talking about each race having its own evolution. Moving from old status quo to new status quo. Localized changes that, together, lead to a new geopolitial configuration.

As big as Teldrassil burning may seem, do you really expect Blizzard to give it a meaningful conclusion? We will probably be told via in-game gossip that there's resistance in Ashenvale and that's it. Kinda like Cata started world-wide conflict, only for MoP to ignore the rest of the world and lead to a conclusion in which Varian tells us he gave Azshara to the Horde in exchange for it to get out of Ashenvale. Things that were never reflected in-game, and became meaningless now.
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  #2385  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
So, another zone is destroyed, while the rest of the world keeps locked in the past, like they've been doing since Cata?

I'm talking about each race having its own evolution. Moving from old status quo to new status quo. Localized changes that, together, lead to a new geopolitial configuration.

As big as Teldrassil burning may seem, do you really expect Blizzard to give it a meaningful conclusion? We will probably be told via in-game gossip that there's resistance in Ashenvale and that's it. Kinda like Cata started world-wide conflict, only for MoP to ignore the rest of the world and lead to a conclusion in which Varian tells us he gave Azshara to the Horde in exchange for it to get out of Ashenvale. Things that were never reflected in-game, and became meaningless now.
I don't expect anything, nor do I form preliminary judgments. I am not like you. I will wait until the product is released, then form a judgment, and then based off of that, decide whether I want to pay for it or not.

I was speaking on a conceptual level. And there, a total war with large geopolitical changes is simply far more interesting to me. As is to many other people who have been attracted to BfA for this very reason.
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  #2386  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:35 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I don't expect anything, nor do I form preliminary judgments. I am not like you. I will wait until the product is released, then form a judgment, and then based off of that, decide whether I want to pay for it or not.

I was speaking on a conceptual level. And there, a total war with large geopolitical changes is simply far more interesting to me. As is to many other people who have been attracted to BfA for this very reason.
I could be more interested in a total war now if we didn't have one ending just two expansions ago (with one expansion in the middle being filler alternate reality shit).
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  #2387  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:36 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
The sooner azeroth dies the sooner we will get the inevitable "must save Alternate universe/timeline azeroth" where we go to before the first war, and then the expansion ends with the Horde invasion.
The worst part is that this is not improbable at all.

In fact, it might become the plot of the very next expansion.

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Blizzard should have done a race-focused expansion. With rebuilding the world as its basis. That would allow them to build up conflict - real conflict, based on racial tensions rather than factions - instead of this forced war.
Yup. This would have been golden. Could have given us an updated Exodar/Vindicaar, a new direction for the Draenei, a journey back to the Wandering Isle, finally retaking Gnomeregan... Alas...

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"It's okay if we do these things because we're the good guys and you're the villains"
You say that as if it's an unreasonable statement.

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I keep hearing from different Discord channels that this is the expansion that will settle the faction conflict once and for all, though. It's fair to take that with a tremendous grain of salt, but if it's true...
Yeah, the thing is, the faction war to end all factions wars should have been Cata/MoP. two expansions later, here we are again with this bullshit. Two expansions from now, this bullshit will come up again, except, this time, for realz, guyz, it will end.

Probably it will be real by then, since WoW will be most likely drawing its last breaths. But even so...

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I was speaking on a conceptual level. And there, a total war with large geopolitical changes is simply far more interesting to me. As is to many other people who have been attracted to BfA for this very reason.
You know which massive geopolitical change I'd like to see?

The breakdown of the Horde as a meaningful concept, annexation by the Alliance of Suramar, Highmountain, Zandalar and Thunderbluff and internment camp treatment for Orcs and Goblins.

Alternatively, they could just make the Horde the absolute winner once and for all and give a remnant of the Alliance races the opportunity to fly to the timeways and settle on pre-awakening Eonar.

Is any of this happening? No. That's the problem with the Faction Warâ„¢. There can be no lasting and meaningful massive geopolitical change because both factions needs to be whole at the end. You don't like cold war and border skirmishes, but this is precisely what BfA will end up becoming once the second patch hits.

Last edited by Patrick_C; 12-13-2017 at 07:41 AM..
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  #2388  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:44 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Yeah, the thing is, the faction war to end all factions wars should have been Cata/MoP.
Indeed. MoP entire thing was about finding balance and harmony, and stopping the never-ending cycle of hatred. Comes the end, the Alliance just decides to stop fighting, spares the Horde, makes a diplomatic resolution by giving land to the Horde, and there's a tentative peace...

One expansion later, and Horde is attacking Alliance despite the later having just spared the former.

Two expansions later, the reasonable warchief dies and the mantle goes to the worst person possible.

Three expansions later, and the faction war is back, worse than ever. And the diplomatic agreement made when the Horde was at its weakest comes back to bite the Alliance in the ass.

Seems like "dismantling the Horde" was the best course of action, after all.
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  #2389  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:46 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Yeah, the thing is, the faction war to end all factions wars should have been Cata/MoP. two expansions later, here we are again with this bullshit. Two expansions from now, this bullshit will come up again, except, this time, for realz, guyz, it will end.
Cata and MoP were pretty limpdick efforts for telling a faction war story and did not resolve everything. It's clear from this expansion that they were not satisfied with how they did it and are making it far larger in scale and actually a major aspect of an expansion story with more loose ends being tied up.
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  #2390  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:46 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I could be more interested in a total war now if we didn't have one ending just two expansions ago (with one expansion in the middle being filler alternate reality shit).
I really wouldn't call MoP a total war of this magnitude. And the conflicts of Cataclysm absolutely not, they are in effect more similar to what you described there. Not to mention their shoddy execution.
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  #2391  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:55 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Cata and MoP were pretty limpdick efforts for telling a faction war story and did not resolve everything. It's clear from this expansion that they were not satisfied with how they did it and are making it far larger in scale and actually a major aspect of an expansion story with more loose ends being tied up.
They are not satisfied because the way this game is structured won't allow them to tell a satisfying faction war story. Ever.

BfA will follow the same structure as Cata/MoP: midway in the expasion we are going to discover a new and bigger threat that demands we stop fighting each other, everyone will join hands and sing together through gritted teeth, an unsatisfying and trite resolution will be giver to The Faction Conflict to End All Faction Conflicts and two expasions later we will be having this debate all over again.
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  #2392  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:59 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I really wouldn't call MoP a total war of this magnitude. And the conflicts of Cataclysm absolutely not, they are in effect more similar to what you described there. Not to mention their shoddy execution.
No, I described racial matters and border conflicts. Cataclysm was a global war in many fronts. If it didn't feel like the global faction war it was is because of "shoddy execution".

Why do you expect such a war to be well executed this time is beyond me. They would need to focus on the continents that matter, IMO they are already doing it wrong by repeating MoP and sending us to new lands to help local folk. You'll be hunting witches in Kul Tiras while the factions are killing each other off-screen in the old world.

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They are not satisfied because the way this game is structured won't allow them to tell a satisfying faction war story. Ever.
Yep.

I could have more faith in a factional war if the leveling was done in the war, not some faraway land where I'm hunting witches or trolls instead of storming frontlines.

Quote:
BfA will follow the same structure as Cata/MoP: midway in the expasion we are going to discover a new and bigger threat that demands we stop fighting each other, everyone will join hands and sing together through gritted teeth, an unsatisfying and trite resolution will be giver to The Faction Conflict to End All Faction Conflicts and two expasions later we will be having this debate all over again.
Or Sylvanas will get her hands on a new super weapon and does something heinous and everyone turns against her. Then Alliance spares the Horde, because the opposite would never happen.
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  #2393  
Old 12-13-2017, 08:00 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I keep hearing from different Discord channels that this is the expansion that will settle the faction conflict once and for all, though. It's fair to take that with a tremendous grain of salt, but if it's true...

What expansion is this? MoP?
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  #2394  
Old 12-13-2017, 08:02 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
They are not satisfied because the way this game is structured won't allow them to tell a satisfying faction war story. Ever.

BfA will follow the same structure as Cata/MoP: midway in the expasion we are going to discover a new and bigger threat that demands we stop fighting each other, everyone will join hands and sing together through gritted teeth, an unsatisfying and trite resolution will be giver to The Faction Conflict to End All Faction Conflicts and two expasions later we will be having this debate all over again.
I am going to repeat myself here, but if you truly believe things are never going to be different are bound to be always this cyclical, why not do yourself a favor and simply leave all this behind? And if you actually do not believe this, why not sit down, relax, wait for the expansion to come out, and then form a judgment accordingly?

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No, I described racial matters and border conflicts. Cataclysm was a global war in many fronts. If it didn't feel like the global faction war it was is because of "shoddy execution".
Actually, Cataclysm was a series of independent conflicts that, even though they were interconnected, were still independent conflicts. Moreover, Blizzard was marketing the expansion exactly like what you wanted there, a revamped world telling the stories of different races caught in a larger conflict. And just like your proposal could easily fall short because of shoddy execution, it simply fell short because its execution was a mess.

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Why do you expect such a war to be well executed this time is beyond me.
As if my previous post didn't adress this, right?

Last edited by Marthen; 12-13-2017 at 08:09 AM..
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  #2395  
Old 12-13-2017, 08:03 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
They are not satisfied because the way this game is structured won't allow them to tell a satisfying faction war story. Ever.

BfA will follow the same structure as Cata/MoP: midway in the expasion we are going to discover a new and bigger threat that demands we stop fighting each other, everyone will join hands and sing together through gritted teeth, an unsatisfying and trite resolution will be giver to The Faction Conflict to End All Faction Conflicts and two expasions later we will be having this debate all over again.
Guess we'll see.
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  #2396  
Old 12-13-2017, 08:09 AM
Yorenec Yorenec is offline

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Originally Posted by Rhllor View Post
the alliance attacks the horde in silithus!!!!
Horde side is the same thing. Difference is the Alliance is being more covert about it and preferring sabotage to outright slaughter. Same for Matthias going "Watch out for the Horde trying to start shit" whereas Nathanos just goes "Lol kill any Alliance fucks you see."

Also I'm dumb and didn't realize that post is from last night and the past two pages are people saying the same thing as me.

Last edited by Yorenec; 12-13-2017 at 08:12 AM..
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  #2397  
Old 12-13-2017, 08:14 AM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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I legitimately love faction conflict.
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  #2398  
Old 12-13-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
That would have been interesting. Legion was a heavy class-focused expansion. And they could have done a race-focused expansion that allowed playable races and the factions to do some internal soul-searching about their post-Legion future. It would have been an excellent backdrop for the introduction of the allied races.
Dunno about the new allied races, but playing throughout Legion made me want to have something similar to classhalls and their campaigns but focusing on races instead.
Our characters would become leaders of small special organisations representing their races, for example:
Humans -> Valorwatch Order headed by its Highlord;
Orcs -> newly organized Bloodrage clan headed by its Warlord;
Gnomes -> S.T.E.A.M. (Special Task Expedition Against Malefactors) headed by Grand Inventor or smth;
Goblins -> Greasegear Cartel (a small cartel that would be bought out by Gallywix) headed by a Trade Baron;
Undead -> Blightbone Corps headed by some Darkranger, or maybe Sylvanas will make up a new title;
Worgens -> Nighthowl pack headed by some Alpha-Lord (kinda combining both Gilnean title with a wolf-y term, lol);
Taurens -> Stonehorn tribe or something with its Chieftain;
Dwarves -> Stormbeard clan with a Mountain thane or smth like that;
Trolls -> Venomtongue tribe from Stranglethorn Vale that would have pledged their loyalty to the Darkspear (leader? dunno, but the first thing I keep imagining is a Shadow hunter =_=)
Night Elves -> it was the most complicated due to the fact that n.elven society is kinda a union of different organisations and it's difficult to come up with a new one. The only thing I could imagine for night elves is some kind of a branch organisation for the Cenarion Circle (Remulan Circle, maybe?);
Blood Elves -> Everblood Scions or anything that fancy;
Draenei -> should create a new word and make an organisation's name out of it (like Archenon poros, that means Good fortune -> Archenei, meaning goodies :p). Its leader should be called Prophet's disciple;
Pandaren - dunno, really :p some new monk schools? or maybe something similar to ninja clans.

Last edited by Xin; 12-13-2017 at 11:23 AM..
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  #2399  
Old 12-13-2017, 08:22 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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You know which massive geopolitical change I'd like to see?

The breakdown of the Horde as a meaningful concept, annexation by the Alliance of Suramar, Highmountain, Zandalar and Thunderbluff and internment camp treatment for Orcs and Goblins.
Look, more evidence that diehard Alliance fanbois are the craziest and most irrational motherfuckers that have ever touched this game.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:29 AM
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I'd rather have true racial campaigns. Didn't think of all races yet, but some ideas:

- Humans: Organize the refugees from other nations and expand to former lands. New human paladin order now that Silver Hand is neutral super-group. Ends up retaking Stromgarde
- Worgen: The retaking of Gilneas. Finally.
- Orcs: Meet/recruit/unite a collection of new and old clans. Form an orcish council to represent the race. Improve Durotar after the events of Cataclysm (green fields forming on the west, near the flooded regions?).
- Trolls: Ally with other small tribes and define the new leader. Get the blessing of the Loa. Make Echo Islands great again.
- Forsaken: Introduce new forsaken sub-factions. Continue Sylvanas' quest for immortality. Forsaken expansionism. Take Alterac. Inter-forsaken conflict.
- Night elves: Redefining their society. More leaders taking action (Shandris, Maiev, Jarod having bigger roles, stablishing a new Shen'dralar leader). Shen'dralar getting their own role within darnassian society. Define a pure night elf military druid group. Rekindle with old nature allies. Seize opportunity to make them more like WC3 Nelves.
- Draenei: Redefine their role post-Legion.

And so on. Not included above: whatever new races such an expansion would include. I'd go with subraces, and link their lore with the parent race (like Wildhammers and Dark Irons being available and active parts on the dwarf campaign).

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Actually, Cataclysm was a series of independent conflicts that, even though they were interconnected, were still independent conflicts. Moreover, Blizzard was marketing the expansion exactly like what you wanted there, a revamped world telling the stories of different races caught in a larger conflict. And just like your proposal could easily fall short because of shoddy execution, it simply fell short because its execution was a mess.
Cataclysm was billed as a big dragon ruining the world while Horde and Alliance decide they'll go for each other's throat worldwide. I'm talking about rebuilding the world, which leads to small, localized conflict. Different concepts, different execution, different conclusion.
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